FAS proposes Green-card-type system for non-EU workers

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Yes but in that case the countries of destination were a hell of a lot bigger than us, i.e. US and Britain. They were in a far better position to pay for their needs and there numbers were still too small to cause large numbers (proportionately) of the US workforce to lose their jobs to cheap labour.

Every illegal Irish immigrant in the US has an adverse effect on employment and housing.

Every illegal immigrant working in the black economy for cash in hand means one less position for a native or legal immigrant, and whether you like it or not causes a knock on effect in terms of wages and conditions.

Every illegal immigrant in the US needs a roof over their head, yes? Does this or does this not contribute to an increased demand for housing?

billy the squid

What is the point in allowing their relatives to come here if they are only going to stay here for 2 years?

they are coming here to work not to serve out a prison sentence. would you like to be separated from your wife/girlfriend and your children for x number of years. thats a good one.

why dont we give them passbooks like they did in south africa.

You say that we need to make these concessions e.g. allowing people to move between jobs, in order to deter them from going to other Western countries. However, there is clearly tons of demand to get here given the 40,000 work-permits the Government handed out in 2004, 2003 and 2002. I don't accept that we need to liberalise the system beyonf allowing the workers to switch between CERTAIN job-types i.e. in sectors experiencing labour-shortages.

with a high dependency on multinational organisations, it is not unheard of for companies to close down without any notice. where does this leave the imigrant who cannot find alternative employment and hasnt enough saved up to go home. i know lets deport them in the middle of the night. thats the way the government does it isnt it.

Yes but in that case the countries of destination were a hell of a lot bigger than us, i.e. US and Britain. They were in a far better position to pay for their needs and there numbers were still too small to cause large numbers (proportionately) of the US workforce to lose their jobs to cheap labour.

If irish people wanted to work there wouldnt be six digit numbers on the live register of dole drawers. If they got up of there arses and worked then there would be no jobs needing foreign people to work here. but until that happens then we as a nation have no right to discriminate against people who are willing to do the work that people like you feel is beneath them.

I resent you putting it that way. I will thank you to stop trying to twist what I am saying to make it look racist, e.g. saying I am saying certain peoples are not "worthy"

you said you would only accept westerners didnt you. yes or no?

I do not use that sort of language nor have I on this forum or outside. My discrimination is on an economic basis, not colour or creed. I differerentiate between Western First World migration and Third World, developing-world migration. The former is acceptable to me because it is unlikely that a sufficient pull-factor exists to lure too many people to these shores such that would overburden a health-service already creaking at the seems, unlike the latter.

Do you really believe that the first thing a person with a work permit is going to do is sign up for a medical card? if they are going to be working their tax and if they choose something like VHI BUBA or whatever, that will pay for the over burdened health service. the fact that the healt minister has her head up her arse at the moment with regard to waiting lists is not the fault of foreign nationals. working imigrants paid for their hospital beds the same way we do.

arcadegame2004

with a high dependency on multinational organisations, it is not unheard of for companies to close down without any notice. where does this leave the imigrant who cannot find alternative employment and hasnt enough saved up to go home. i know lets deport them in the middle of the night. thats the way the government does it isnt it.

No, not necessarily. I have already said that I am not necessarily opposed to a mechanism for allowing such people to move from one job to another PROVIDED the job they move to is within a sector of industry experiencing labour-shortages. They could do that. Anyway, the Irish economy is most definitely not in the situation where what you are talking about happens a lot.

If irish people wanted to work there wouldnt be six digit numbers on the live register of dole drawers. If they got up of there arses and worked then there would be no jobs needing foreign people to work here. but until that happens then we as a nation have no right to discriminate against people who are willing to do the work that people like you feel is beneath them.

I contend that one reason why they are not finding jobs is that the immigrants from the developing world are prepared to work for less. You also neglect the issue of disability as a cause for being unemployed.

Do you really believe that the first thing a person with a work permit is going to do is sign up for a medical card? if they are going to be working their tax and if they choose something like VHI BUBA or whatever, that will pay for the over burdened health service. the fact that the healt minister has her head up her arse at the moment with regard to waiting lists is not the fault of foreign nationals. working imigrants paid for their hospital beds the same way we do.

And if they don't pay for health-insurance they will be treated at the taxpayers' expense and in competition for already scarce beds.

billy the squid

I contend that one reason why they are not finding jobs is that the immigrants from the developing world are prepared to work for less. You also neglect the issue of disability as a cause for being unemployed.

Disabled persons payments are not included in the numbers on unemployment benefit.

when I started my first job there were 230,000 people on the dole. and this was before we started receiving imigrants. there are employers screaming out for workers at the turn of the century yet no irish people were taking the jobs. Employers were screaming out for workers yet no one was taking the work so they hired foreigners. and there were a lot fewer immigrants in ireland then than there are now.

the work is there its just some people are too lazy to take it. again nothing to do with the number of foreign nationals.

And if they don't pay for health-insurance they will be treated at the taxpayers' expense and in competition for already scarce beds.

Foreign nationals are not exempt from PAYE and PRSI while they are working.

there are always alot of IFs in the white supremisists manifesto arent there.

billy the squid

oh and if the health service is over burdened then that is the minister for health's problem, everyone including working foreign nationals pay for them out of their taxes.

arcadegame2004

billy the squid wrote:

oh and if the health service is over burdened then that is the minister for health's problem, everyone including working foreign nationals pay for them out of their taxes.

I have outlined in many threads what my ideas are for digging the Health-Service out of the hole it is in. Unfortunately, it would be a very brave minister and government indeed that would implement them, hence I expect the problems to continue for the foreseeable future, and in that context we have to bear this in mind when framing immigration-policy.

billy the squid

have outlined in many threads what my ideas are for digging the Health-Service out of the hole it is in. Unfortunately, it would be a very brave minister and government indeed that would implement them, hence I expect the problems to continue for the foreseeable future, and in that context we have to bear this in mind when framing immigration-policy.

what has the governments inbility to improve the health service got to do with the rights of foreign nationals from working here.

They are separate issues.

arcadegame2004

billy the squid wrote:

what has the governments inbility to improve the health service got to do with the rights of foreign nationals from working here.

They are separate issues.

Separate but related. There is only so much cake to go round.

billy the squid

foreign nationals who work are just as entitled to the use of our health service as anyone else who works, they are paying taxes too.

the fact that the health service is crap is not their fault nor should they be discriminated because the irish nationals who work there are incapible of doing their jobs properly at the upper levels of the health service.

Frank Grimes

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Separate but related. There is only so much cake to go round.

So you think foreign people living here are less entitled to avail of the health services here, even if they contribute tax and prsi etc?

Immigrant wife

arcadegame2004 wrote:

What is the point in allowing their relatives to come here if they are only going to stay here for 2 years?

You say that we need to make these concessions e.g. allowing people to move between jobs, in order to deter them from going to other Western countries. However, there is clearly tons of demand to get here given the 40,000 work-permits the Government handed out in 2004, 2003 and 2002. I don't accept that we need to liberalise the system beyonf allowing the workers to switch between CERTAIN job-types i.e. in sectors experiencing labour-shortages.

The whole point of my explanation that you clearly seemed to miss is that without giving highly skilled workers an incentive to stay, they will only stay for two years. If they are treated with dignity they will stay for many years and continue to enhance the economy. Immigrants arrive with the expectation of being able to contribute positively to the Irish economy nd society. It is when they feel they have been exploited that they move elsewhere.

You also fail to understand that the forty thousand WORK PERMITS issued in the past few years are in most cases not for highly skilled workers such as doctors, engineers etc. While it might be argued that some of these work permit holders might be taking jobs that could be done by an Irishman on the dole, the employer cannot recruit a foreign national and apply for a work permit for them until they have proved that they are unable to get an Irish person to fill the position. The post has to be advertised on the FAS website. If there are all these Irish people waiting to take the jobs, why don't they apply and what is it about them that makes them unsuccessful if they do. Also in the case of the doctors, engineers and nurses, how many of the unemployed would be able to step into these jobs? Get real!

The green card system is being introduced because so many of the doctors and especially nurses who were recruited in their home countries to come to work in Ireland discover the appalling treatment they get when they arrive here and so move on to settle in a country that treats them decently. What makes the treatment here all the more galling is that the Irish are actively strip developing countries of their most skilled workers by telling half truths or leaving out significant information to get them to come here. Whe they arrive here they find that life is very difficult for their families, if they are able to bring their families in at all.

The changes the government are making are in response to the realisation that you can't treat people as the British treated the Irish and expect to get away with it. You have to treat them as if they were equals if you want them to remain. The green card system is about retaining those highly skilled workers that are already in the country and attracting those that are put off by the conditions they will endure here.

As for saying that the immigration policy is not linked to the health system. Wake up! It is precisely because the health system is hugely dependent on immigrant doctors and nurses etc. who are not staying after their initial two year period, that the government has been forced into improving the immigration conditions for these people. These workers by and large do not return home. They have made the decision to emigrate from home and so move to a more accommodating country.

Ireland will never have enough Irish doctors to come anywhere near meeting its requirements because of government policy. They have decided that rather than fund the education of their own doctors, they give the places to foreign students whom they charge enough to pay for themselves and almost two Irish students. Then, having not paid to educate their own medical staff, they strip developing countries of the doctors etc that these countries have educated at great expence. Then having aquired all this education and experience free of charge, the Irish then proceed to treat these doctors abominably and wonder why they leave and go elsewhere.

MadsL

Couple of points

Van Gogh was actually exposing the endemic persecution of women in many Islamic societies, with their barbaric practices of wifebeating and honour-killings. For this he paid with his life.

I suspect this was more to do with his constant referal to Muslims as goatf#ckers...why are you trying to turn him into a martyr for the "cause'?

The Irish people who left for the US in the 1800's were genuine asylum-seekers in that they were fleeing famine and colonial landlordism, and foreign imperialism. You cannot say that about Romanians, Nigerians, Moldovans etc. who come here to claim asylum.

Not one of them was an economic refugee?

If they crossed into an EU country before Ireland (which given our location is almost certain and if they didn't thaty was by choice) then they have no business as far as I am concerned claiming that their lives depend on coming to Ireland.

This has been done to death and been shown as false a 100 times, are you just repeating it until it becomes true?

I would welcome a return of Irish migrants to keep Irish people the majority in their own country.

How many? Would you still be bitching after 40 million come back that you can't find a job...now, I have to get back to work...maybe if you got off your arse and stop posting this crap you might find one too.

sackville

MadsL wrote:

..maybe if you got off your arse and stop posting this crap you might find one too.

The neocons have landed, the neocons have landed!!! :eek:

sackville

MadsL wrote:

Not one of them ( famine irish emmigrants)was an economic refugee?

Most all were, but they didn't actually claim political asylum I think you'll find. :rolleyes:

bonkey

I would welcome a return of Irish migrants to keep Irish people the majority in their own country.

I'll believe that if and when it starts happening and you maintain that stance.

Until then, they're just empty meannigless words.

BTW...what if they're Irish Muslim migrants? Will you welcome them back to maintain the Irish majority, even if it meant that we lost our Catholic majority?

jc

sackville

MadsL wrote:

I suspect this was more to do with his constant referal to Muslims as goatf#ckers...why are you trying to turn him into a martyr for the "cause'?

.

even if true are you suggesting it justifies his cold-blooded murder?

sackville

Immigrant wife wrote:

. Then, having not paid to educate their own medical staff, they strip developing countries of the doctors etc that these countries have educated at great expence. .

You've just made a strong moral case against a liberal immigration policy there methinks! ( and believe it or not- one i've made myself on other forums)

Immigrant wife

sackville wrote:

You've just made a strong moral case against a liberal immigration policy there methinks! ( and believe it or not- one i've made myself on other forums)

I don't think Ireland has ever considered a liberal immigration policy. Giving highly skilled immigrants already resident in the country a green card which enables them to settle in Ireland on a permanent basis can hardly be termed liberal. It is in fact the only moral or justifiable response. Ireland has ripped them off enough and it is about time to treat these immigrants in a fair and decent manner.

Of course, a truly moral response would be for the Irish government to pay the developing countries the money they have saved by poaching their highly qualified citizens. As the situation stands at the moment the Irish medical system is prtially funded by third world countries, a proud record for the Irish!!

sceptre

sackville wrote:

even if true are you suggesting it justifies his cold-blooded murder?

I didn't notice it if he did. Don't Straw Man the discussion, it's incoherent enough as it is.

MadsL

true enough...

Theo Van Gogh wrote:

"This is what our multicultural society has brought us: a climate of intimidation in which all sorts of goatf#ckers can issue their threats freely."

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/11/24/vangogh/

Immigrant wife

sackville wrote:

Most all were, but they didn't actually claim political asylum I think you'll find. :rolleyes:

Although this is totally off the subject of green cards, although some people don't seem to understand this, I will enlighten you a little.

The Irish famine emigrants were allowed into the USA irrespective of the skills (or lack of them) that they possessed. If the asylum seekers were allowed to come in without any restriction on their skills, they wouldn't come seeking political asylum either. Many of them are well qualified but have to flee their country. They do not have the time or opportunity to investigate jobs and go through a work permit system as their life is often in danger. Once they arrive in the ocuntry as an asylum seeker they cannot then apply for a work permit. If they wish to do this, they have to return to their home country and apply which is clearly impossible.

I don't think there was any such thing as political asylum in the 1840's in any case. If the Irish emigrants had been prevented from entering the USA due to their lack of skills, they may well have availed of such a system if one had existed.


On the subject of the Irish stripping the developing world of its most highly qualified workers, you only picked up on the first part of the sentence and used it as a moral argument against introducing a more liberal immigration policy, without dealing with the second part of the sentence which dealt with the immoral methods, such as half truths and leaving out vital information, employed by recruiters to entice these highly skilled workers to Ireland.
This smacked of cowardice and is termed taking something out of context.

In fact I have notice a distinct lack of refutal of anything I have said or any moral justification as to why it should be the way it is.

Also a point off the subject, regarding all these thousands of immigrants that are apparently working for less than the Irish, surely they don't set the wages, the employers do. I am sure they would be quite happy to work for the same wage as an Irish person gets. There is no point in ranting about the immigrants, it is the Irish employers you should be going after. Rather than looking at how to prevent these workers from coming into Ireland, you should advocate greater policing of employers. Then if everyone is paid the same, then if employers employ foreigners, then it is obvious that there were no Irish people willing or able to take these jobs. You would then surely have no objection to any immigrant you encoutered as they would obviously be needed in the economy. Simple.

I also have a question (once again off the subject) regarding immigrants using the medicl services. If, as has been proposed on this thread, immigrants should not use these services as they block them up for Irish people, as as the taxes immigrants and Irish citizens pay on an equal basis goes in part to roviding such services, I presume that you are advocating that immigrants pay a lesser rate of tax that does not include the funding of the medical services. Or is it suggested that immigrants should be further riped off by paying for medical expenses for Irish citizens. Merely a thought!

If people are fearful of creating a green card system for the highly skilled immigrants and their families in order to keep these people in the country and keep services such as the medical and construction industries going, what do they think should be done to keep these people in Ireland, bearing in mind that the present Work Authorisation is not achieving this. Would they rather that all these people left the country, again bearing in mind that Ireland would not be able to deliver even a basic medical service to its citizens without these immigrants? I would like an answer to the first question in this paragraph by both Arcadegame and Sackville and will consider it an act of great cowardice if you do not answer.

You could also answer the question posed in my previous paragraph if you dare.

sackville

sceptre wrote:

I didn't notice it if he did. Don't Straw Man the discussion, it's incoherent enough as it is.

He didn't, and since then hasn't made he position very clear on this. It shows a level of ambiguity that is reprehensible.

sackville

Immigrant wife wrote:

I don't think Ireland has ever considered a liberal immigration policy. Giving highly skilled immigrants already resident in the country a green card which enables them to settle in Ireland on a permanent basis can hardly be termed liberal. It is in fact the only moral or justifiable response. Ireland has ripped them off enough and it is about time to treat these immigrants in a fair and decent manner.

Of course, a truly moral response would be for the Irish government to pay the developing countries the money they have saved by poaching their highly qualified citizens. As the situation stands at the moment the Irish medical system is prtially funded by third world countries, a proud record for the Irish!!

Ireland ,in case you haven't realised, has opened its borders and labour market to the entire population of the new E.U acession States, that alone makes he more' liberal 'than maybe every other existing continental EU member. We have one of the most generous asylum systems in the world. ( although not offically of course). For a post-colonian country of less 5 Million Natives we compare quite well. As for paying money I think you should check out the idea of 'foreign aid'. Our ruling class is more than eager to prove its 'global justice' creditals often in face deep unpopularity from whole sections of the people. I find it incredibially disingenous of you sell your cause as one of pure altruism. When in truth aren't professionals just another form ecomonic migrant?
You seem also to do a strong line, may I say, in standing up for low skilled immigration. Despite the fact they represent a completely seperate issue from that of yor class.
Your a shining example of the problems of immigration for the host people in that you really seem incapible of seeing any of their concerns a legitimate.
Every country in the world needs a immigration policy which is first and foremost to consider the needs/concerns of that Country.
That is a issue of Sovereignty.Something we, as a post-colonial Country fought to achieve. I for one am not going to sell it out to another batch of foreigners who really couldn't care less about the welfare of the Irish.

MadsL

He didn't, and since then hasn't made he position very clear on this. It shows a level of ambiguity that is reprehensible.

Of course I don't condone the murder, but I have little sympathy for a man who makes these kind of comments and then reaps the consequences. Imagine going into Harlem wearing a sign that says "I hate n1ggers!" and then trying to bring a prosecution for assault.

My annoyance is the likes of arcade, "Hereby" distancing himself from these go@t****er comments in a previous thread and then dragging up Van Gogh as some kind of example of how multicultural is evil and that he is some sort of hero of whatever agenda he is pushing. Note he still has not explained who the "We" is he claims to represent.

"a level of ambiguity that is reprehensible" - What exactly is it I said that is unclear?

MadsL

Our ruling class is more than eager to prove its 'global justice' creditals often in face deep unpopularity from whole sections of the people.

On the issue of ambiguity - what exactly are you referring to here? Specific examples?

Immigrant wife

To Sackville,

I see you did not bother to or were incapable of answering either of the two questions I posed to you. I expected as much.

As for sayig that I don't care about the welfare of the Irish, where did you get that information. How do you know what I do towards the welfare fo the Irish. I happen in fact to be the head of a long respected organisation involved with the elderly in Ireland. This is a voluntary post by the way.

I merely pointed out that your fears and angers were misplaced, that it is futile to rant an rave at the immigrants when the problem lies with Irish people and government policy which chooses not to train its own people for the highly skilled position but instead relay on using (free) the skills of foreign countries. This is fact, not something I have dreamt up.

I have not denied that most of the highly skilled workers are economic migrants but what separates their recruitment from others is that agencies on behalf of the medical services etc. held seminars in countries whose medical staff etc. they were targeting and used half truths or material omissions to persuade people to come into this country. Once these workers arrived in Ireland they discovered that a number of things they had been told, which had a direct bearing on their decision to emigrate, were in fact not true. This impacts on their ability to lead a normal life that any other educated Irish person would expect. It is too expensive to leave immediately but once they are in a position to do so many move on to more immigrant friendly countries.

Ireland has no permanent residence scheme whereby if workers have lived and worked here and paid taxes for a specific number of years, they qualify for permanent residence. At present, unless we take out Irish citizenship, we will still be applying to renew the Work Authorisation every two years in twenty years time. How is one supposed to plan for retirement or arrange future education if one doesn't know which country one should be aiming at.
But I suppose you would be of the school who would expect a worker to spend their whole working life to Ireland and then go back to their country of birth and expect them to fund their old age. Not that I am saying I will not eventually apply for citizenship, I just shouldn't have to in order to reman working here in the long term. No expatriate Irish person I have known (and I know quite a few) has ever relinquished their Irish citizenship. They just lived as permanent residents, elliglible for everything except for the right to vote.

sackville

MadsL wrote:

On the issue of ambiguity - what exactly are you referring to here? Specific examples?

"I don't condone the murder, but....."
specific enough?

sceptre

sackville wrote:

"I don't condone the murder, but....."
specific enough?

As I pointed out, you do appear to be pulling a Straw Man on the discussion. You're arguing against something that he didn't say and that frankly wouldn't be of relevance to the discusion even if he had (undesirable as the comment might be). People usually do this when they're unwilling or unable to discuss the actual point at hand and look for a way out where they can claim some small victory. Assuming this isn't the case in your case, you might be better off discussing the actual topic at hand (and addressing the questions posed to you) lest others think you're trying to ignore the discussion out of inability or unwillingness. It's sort of a waste of other people's time if you don't.

You can start a new thread on the murder if you like.

sackville

Immigrant wife wrote:

To Sackville,

I see you did not bother to or were incapable of answering either of the two questions I posed to you. I expected as much.

As for sayig that I don't care about the welfare of the Irish, where did you get that information. How do you know what I do towards the welfare fo the Irish. I happen in fact to be the head of a long respected organisation involved with the elderly in Ireland. This is a voluntary post by the way.

I merely pointed out that your fears and angers were misplaced, that it is futile to rant an rave at the immigrants when the problem lies with Irish people and government policy which chooses not to train its own people for the highly skilled position but instead relay on using (free) the skills of foreign countries. This is fact, not something I have dreamt up.

I have not denied that most of the highly skilled workers are economic migrants but what separates their recruitment from others is that agencies on behalf of the medical services etc. held seminars in countries whose medical staff etc. they were targeting and used half truths or material omissions to persuade people to come into this country. Once these workers arrived in Ireland they discovered that a number of things they had been told, which had a direct bearing on their decision to emigrate, were in fact not true. This impacts on their ability to lead a normal life that any other educated Irish person would expect. It is too expensive to leave immediately but once they are in a position to do so many move on to more immigrant friendly countries.

Ireland has no permanent residence scheme whereby if workers have lived and worked here and paid taxes for a specific number of years, they qualify for permanent residence. At present, unless we take out Irish citizenship, we will still be applying to renew the Work Authorisation every two years in twenty years time. How is one supposed to plan for retirement or arrange future education if one doesn't know which country one should be aiming at.
But I suppose you would be of the school who would expect a worker to spend their whole working life to Ireland and then go back to their country of birth and expect them to fund their old age. Not that I am saying I will not eventually apply for citizenship, I just shouldn't have to in order to reman working here in the long term. No expatriate Irish person I have known (and I know quite a few) has ever relinquished their Irish citizenship. They just lived as permanent residents, elliglible for everything except for the right to vote.

On the point of concern for the native Irish my point was a general political point-not a personal one. It was also general observation on what might be described as Balkaniasation of politics which may happen in multi-cultural or societies which have large immigrant populations.

You were defending it seems to me every class of worker as If the Irish (in particular) low-skilled or unemployed didn't have a point of view.
If you remember you accused the irish of never being liberal. I felt obliged to point out some facts that blatently contradicted this assertion.

If you had stuck to the point of the position of permanent residence then I would say you have a fair point. But then you muddied your own waters by also, it seemed, defending asylum abuse which I think does no favours to the interests to legal immigrants like yourself. I think you'd do yourself more favours by being seen to condemn this rather that condone it.

If lies and deception are used to recruit foreign professionals then also I think that's deeply reprehensible and wrong and if you were to publicise this more I doubt it could go on much longer.

nonetheless It is worth pointing out that many trained Irish professionals have also left to go overseas to greener pastures over the years which has left the shortage of skills in our system.Countries like U.S, UK Austrialia and THe Gulf States have also benefitted for Irish funded skills.

The reality is that professionals of all Nationalities can be to a large degree maybe mercenary which inevitably means that the wealthier ( countries)attract the more and the better.
In the long run I can see many of the developing countries playing the same card as the Irish are now to poach some other poorer countries skilled staff-a ongoing cycle of might be looked upon as a form of colonial expolitation. Nobody can claim any real moral high ground- least of all the professionals themselves.

MadsL

sackville wrote:

"I don't condone the murder, but....."
specific enough?

And your point is...??? Mr "I-can-read-you-mind" Sackville.

My POV is very, very simple, let me explain it in words of no more than three syllables.

1. Murder is wrong.
2. Idiots often make bad things happen to themselves.
3. I have no sympathy for idiots.

Clear? Right, so...us dogs have finished barking, let the caravan move on...