FAS proposes Green-card-type system for non-EU workers

gandalf

sackville wrote:

Most of the 'asylum seeking' is immigration in an dishonest, opportunistic and illegal form.

OK enough is enough. You posted this as fact with no backup at all. There have been numerous warnings. You are now banned for a week.

If I see anymore of these especially on this or related threads others will be banned as well. The mods are sick of these kind of posts.

arcadegame2004

When was this? I didn't realise that the entire country voted! Why was I not told? Here was me thinking that less than 40% of the *country* voted yes. As you can appreciate this is a big shock for me. Could you please post some links that show 80% of the Country voted yes in June?

Okay if you are going to interpet the referendum result as just "40% voting yes". then presumably you must also interpret the No vote as 8% voting no. Which do you think is more representative of public opinion, the 40% or the 8%?

Actually you are underepresenting even the actual % of the entire electorate that voted "Yes". 80% of a 60% turnout is 48%. Thus, for the Nos to be representative of public opinion, about 99% of those who abstained would have to be on the "No" side, otherwise the "yes"s would would still win, thus proving even more starkly who is representative of public opinion.

Do you seriously believe that 99% of those who abstained would have voted "No"?

Zombrex

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The plantation was carried out via immigration.

In the same lose defintion of the word that the Spanish conquering South America was "immigration" or the French "immigrated" into Asia.

The Irish plantations are as irrelivent to modern day immigration analogies as the Spanish conquests in the 16th century.

arcadegame2004

Wicknight wrote:

In the same lose defintion of the word that the Spanish conquering South America was "immigration" or the French "immigrated" into Asia.

The Irish plantations are as irrelivent to modern day immigration analogies as the Spanish conquests in the 16th century.

Well of course, the Spanish started out as friends of the Aztecs and Incas of course....

Zombrex

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Well of course, the Spanish started out as friends of the Aztecs and Incas of course....

Oh ... my ... god ...

I really hope that was an Arcadegame attempt at a joke, because even you couldn't be stupid enough to be implying what I hope you were not implying

:eek:

el Bastardo

Do most people in the forum grow to left??? <vote here> I've been tempted to reply to the longer-than-long threads on this and other subjects over the past few days but worry that my centerist opinions might be deemed 'unworthy' (or maybe, at worst, RACIST?).

Zombrex

el Bastardo wrote:

Do most people in the forum grow to left??? <vote here> I've been tempted to reply to the longer-than-long threads on this and other subjects over the past few days but worry that my centerist opinions might be deemed 'unworthy' (or maybe, at worst, RACIST?).

If your opinions and comments are backed up with facts about what is actually happening in Ireland, rather than your own fears and prediduces of foreign people, like some on this thread, then your comments are "worthy"

arcadegame2004

Do most people in the forum grow to left??? <vote here> I've been tempted to reply to the longer-than-long threads on this and other subjects over the past few days but worry that my centerist opinions might be deemed 'unworthy' (or maybe, at worst, RACIST?).

Don't let yourself be pushed around by the Leftists El Bastardo! Your contribution is welcome, and hopefully will help create a more balanced debate.

sceptre

el Bastardo wrote:

Do most people in the forum grow to left??? <vote here> I've been tempted to reply to the longer-than-long threads on this and other subjects over the past few days but worry that my centerist opinions might be deemed 'unworthy' (or maybe, at worst, RACIST?).

Likw wicknight said, if you've got some basis to your points over and above a bubbling feeling in your small intestine, your posts are probably never "unworthy". Which doesn't mean that everyone will necessarily agree with them mind you but you probably assumed that bit anyway. All you require is some quantifiable reason (both meanings of the word) and occasionally a few (reasonably read) sources, while your actual views (and to a certain extent diction) are less important from the point of view of what's worthwhile and what's worthless.

In other words, if you've got a(n actual) good basis to what you're saying, I generally couldn't care less what someone might say as long as it says within the parameters of the laws of this country. Don't seek to mislead, and within reason you can quite possibly say whatver you like.

Incidentally, I don't tend to lean all that much left or right myself (at least in the way those two words have been interpreted by their respective opponents relatively recently). I tend to be ambidextrous with a slight emphasis on right (I write with my right for example) and I can tell right from left when driving and well that's about it. People in college always tended to assume I was a member of the party they weren't a member of, I try to tend towards pragmatism from a economic point of view (we all think we do that of course but at least (for example) I reckoned the Laffer curve was interesting even if I was never a fan of the Kemp-Roth Act) but obviously I still have "views". And I dislike Bill O'Reilly far more than Michael Moore, would have Kerry in the last election if I had to choose between him and Bush (I didn't so I wouldn't have) but couldn't see a significant difference between them so as a moderator I usually don't care what you have to say as long as you've some (real) factual basis for saying it that you appear to understand. I wish you well when you post your own views on owt at all.

billy the squid

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Well of course, the Spanish started out as friends of the Aztecs and Incas of course....

http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/dpalfrey/dpconquest.html

sorry to burst your bubble here. I just had to. your knowledge of history is somewhat lacking.

pete

Remember the topic?

Green card system planned for skilled workers



The Government is drawing up plans for a "green card" system which would allow skilled migrant workers and their families from outside the EU permanent residency rights in the State. Carl O'Brien, Social Affairs Correspondent, reports.

The green card would be available to skilled workers from a range of areas where they are deemed to be in short supply, such as science and technology, engineering, the health service and the IT sector.

Government sources say the new system will be introduced in response to growing competition for highly skilled migrant workers in Europe and the US.

At present, skilled migrant workers in certain sectors may work here and bring their family members under a work visa or authorisation scheme, which is renewable every two years. Others must obtain a work permit, renewable every 12 months.

Government sources have suggested that the number of green cards issued in the initial years of the scheme may be in the low thousands. However, this figure will depend on detailed assessments of labour shortages and economic forecasts.

The number of cards issued and the sectors where they will apply will be at the discretion of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Mr Martin.

That Department will have to be satisfied that the worker is unlikely to become a burden on the State before it issues the green card. Card holders, as with all other people legally resident in the State for five years, will be able to apply for citizenship.

Aspects of the plan are still under discussion and will be detailed in the Employment Permits Bill, which is due to come before Cabinet in the coming months.

The Minister is also planning to introduce a series of changes in the work permits system to protect workers from exploitation.

The legislation is expected to include fines of up to €50,000 or five years in prison for employers found guilty of serious breaches of labour law. Employers will have to satisfy a number of criteria, including compliance with the minimum wage, tax compliance and working conditions, before joining a register of approved firms seeking work permits for employees.

Firms which do not meet basic standards, or have a record of flouting labour law, are likely to be rejected from the register and will be unable to apply for permits.

However, unions and migrant worker support groups are likely to say the changes will not go far enough.

There are no plans at present to change the existing system where permits are held by employers rather than workers, although this is still under discussion, according to senior sources.

The former president, Mrs Mary Robinson, and a number of non-governmental organisations have likened the work permit system to "bonded servitude" because permits are held by employers rather than workers. As a result, employees who are unhappy with pay or conditions are not free to change jobs.

Almost 35,000 work permits were issued last year compared to 47,500 in 2003. The fall has been due mainly to changes in employment rights for citizens in the EU accession countries who no longer require permits.

The planned changes come at a time when Government labour inspectors are investigating more than 300 cases of possible exploitation and mistreatment of employees, the majority of whom are immigrant workers.

The SIPTU trade union and the Migrant Rights Centre have criticised the Government for appointing just 21 labour inspectors to monitor compliance with labour law.

About 5,000 inspections of premises took place last year, according to the latest figures. Fourteen employers were prosecuted for breaches of employment law.

The figures are down by almost a third compared to 2003, when more than 7,000 inspections took place, resulting in 20 successful prosecutions. Officials say the drop was due to work commitments related to Ireland's presidency of the EU.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2005/0212/3942119557HM1GREENCARD.html


Hmmmm was that a scream i just heard from wexford there?

Zombrex

I would be worried about the fact that an employee cannot leave their job to move to another one or they may face deportation, as it is the employer rather than the employee that holds the permit.

oscarBravo

Wicknight wrote:

I would be worried about the fact that an employee cannot leave their job to move to another one or they may face deportation, as it is the employer rather than the employee that holds the permit.

Maybe I've completely misread it, but isn't that the point of the Green Card system - to give job-independent residency rights to the holder of the Card?

Zombrex

oscarBravo wrote:

Maybe I've completely misread it, but isn't that the point of the Green Card system - to give job-independent residency rights to the holder of the Card?

Not sure .. from article

However, unions and migrant worker support groups are likely to say the changes will not go far enough.

There are no plans at present to change the existing system where permits are held by employers rather than workers, although this is still under discussion, according to senior sources.

Maybe it isn't a true "Green Card" system like they have in the US

oscarBravo

Wicknight wrote:

Maybe it isn't a true "Green Card" system like they have in the US

I read it as a change in context:

The Government is drawing up plans for a "green card" system which would allow skilled migrant workers and their families from outside the EU permanent residency rights in the State.

...

The Minister is also planning to introduce a series of changes in the work permits system to protect workers from exploitation.

...

There are no plans at present to change the existing system where permits are held by employers rather than workers...

So it seems the unions are expressing concerns about the continued operation of the work permit system, as distinct from the Green Card system. No?

Zombrex

oscarBravo wrote:

I read it as a change in context: So it seems the unions are expressing concerns about the continued operation of the work permit system, as distinct from the Green Card system. No?

"Ah now I see" said the blind man.

Well I am all for it ...

Immigrant wife

From previous statements made by the minister, it would appear that the green card is not going to be given to workers on a work permit, only to those on a work authorisation or work visa. The work authorisations and work visas are given to highly skilled workers in selected job sectors identified as having major skill shortages i.e. medical, construction and IT. The work authorisation is given to the worker himself and already enables him to change jobs within the two year period of its validity as long as he remains within the sector for which the authorisation was given. In mid 2004 the spouses of these workers were given the right to work as long as their employer applied for a work permit which is given automatically without the need for payment or justification of the need to employ a non-EU worker. The decision to expand this to a "green card" is due to recognition that these workers will be needed for some considerable time and that if the country wants to retain them, they have to supply the workers and their families with stability without the fear that as they near retirement and jobs consequently become more difficult to find, they could be sent packing if the government feels it doesn't need them any more. Also this means that the children will be able to settle here and work. At present the children cannot stay in the country once they become adults unless they apply for a work permit which is only premissable in certain sectors. Unless their family can stay as well, many workers move to countries where the whole family can live together. The green card would sort these problems out. Ireland is out of step with most countries at present so this will put it on an equal competitive footing.

The minister has said that the green card will only be for the highly skilled category of worker, not for the general worker who is in Ireland on a work permit. There does not seem to be any decision to reform the work permit system.

Poker_Peter

Government sources have suggested that the number of green cards issued in the initial years of the scheme may be in the low thousands. However, this figure will depend on detailed assessments of labour shortages and economic forecasts.

The number of cards issued and the sectors where they will apply will be at the discretion of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Mr Martin.

That Department will have to be satisfied that the worker is unlikely to become a burden on the State before it issues the green card. Card holders, as with all other people legally resident in the State for five years, will be able to apply for citizenship.

I am relieved that the number is expected to be in the low thousands only. The more we let in, the harder it will be to inspect all thw companies using the migrant labour anyway. It is hard enough as it is. We could train more inspectors. But sadly, the selfish public-sector unions would probably do all in their power to stop this, if the dropping of the plan to bring in more driver-testers from NI some time ago was anything to go by (and union pressure I believe was a factor there).

The Minister is also planning to introduce a series of changes in the work permits system to protect workers from exploitation.

The legislation is expected to include fines of up to €50,000 or five years in prison for employers found guilty of serious breaches of labour law. Employers will have to satisfy a number of criteria, including compliance with the minimum wage, tax compliance and working conditions, before joining a register of approved firms seeking work permits for employees.

Firms which do not meet basic standards, or have a record of flouting labour law, are likely to be rejected from the register and will be unable to apply for permits.

This is right and proper, since cheap labour can only disadvantage not only the migrant but also Irish people looking for jobs who are not going to accept the kinds of salaries that third-world, developing world migrants would, especially from countries like Latvia where the average wage is $2,000 or less. To people in this position, getting paid less than the Irish minimum wage could still be a hell of a lot better than what they'd earn in their own countries, so many might not complain.

However, I still have concerns that such employees might still be reluctant to complain to inspectors about low-wages (lower than minimum wage) due to a fear of getting sacked, and because of what I said in the last sentence of the previous paragraph. These people are understandibly desperate for money, you see. This brings me back to my conviction that developing-world migration inevitably will bring in cheap labour, including illegally cheap labour under the minimum wage.

However, unions and migrant worker support groups are likely to say the changes will not go far enough.

Honestly, I don't think anything will satisfy most of them, if they are anything like the groups of unions and self-styled "migrant groups" or "anti-racism citizens committees" that were ranting on during the Citizenship referendum. To them, there is no such thing as an excessively liberal immigration system, in my opinion.

There are no plans at present to change the existing system where permits are held by employers rather than workers, although this is still under discussion, according to senior sources.

A possible improvement over the existing system would be to set up a register of good employers, based on the similar system planned for the Green card. This could weed out the worst exploiters of migrant workers. But sadly I really doubt it will fully stamp it out, for reasons explained earlier.

The former president, Mrs Mary Robinson, and a number of non-governmental organisations have likened the work permit system to "bonded servitude" because permits are held by employers rather than workers. As a result, employees who are unhappy with pay or conditions are not free to change jobs.

Okay I understand that Mary but I feel that cheap labour, to some extent, comes with the territory of developing world immigration, for reasons mentioned earlier. It is definitely in everyones interests to try to stop it, but I fear this will only be a partial success.

Dhimmi76

sceptre wrote:

In other words, if you've got a(n actual) good basis to what you're saying, I generally couldn't care less what someone might say as long as it says within the parameters of the laws of this country. Don't seek to mislead, and within reason you can quite possibly say whatver you like.

Nah! Don’t buy it! Forums are good for lively debate, expressing ideas, airing views etc, but as actually proving anything they’re simply a non-starter.

‘Verifying’ criteria are always placed dispropotionately here on less ‘right on’ and more unPC comments. It's all just a bogus pretext to suppress opinion.

Censorship is censorship no matter how the censor tries to justify it.

Judge them by actions –not by their excuses!

buellershow

Call this naieve but shouldn't legally clean people who wish to move to another nation to work for opportunity or love of the nation be allowed to do so in as many instances as possible? If one is truly seeking freedom, should not an American who wishes to work in Ireland be able to do so as simply as possible, and the same for the Irish citizen who wishes to come here. I've long held the dream of moving to Ireland (and have family background there, although not close enough to qualify for citizenship on that basis.) I do find some of the laws to be confusing, and perhaps even restrictive for someone who would want to be self-employed without a ton of start-up capital. But I have full faith that with perserverence at some point I will fulfill the dream of myself and my fiance' to have a new life in the land of our heritage, following our careers to the best of our God-given abilities. I believe things should be as simple as possible for normal law-abiding citizens who wish to make their way in the world. It's that simple for EU members who can go anywhere they wish at any time, should it not be also made simpler for others?

Just my rambling thoughts,

Bueller

Poker_Peter

buellershow wrote:

Call this naieve but shouldn't legally clean people who wish to move to another nation to work for opportunity or love of the nation be allowed to do so in as many instances as possible? If one is truly seeking freedom, should not an American who wishes to work in Ireland be able to do so as simply as possible, and the same for the Irish citizen who wishes to come here. I've long held the dream of moving to Ireland (and have family background there, although not close enough to qualify for citizenship on that basis.) I do find some of the laws to be confusing, and perhaps even restrictive for someone who would want to be self-employed without a ton of start-up capital. But I have full faith that with perserverence at some point I will fulfill the dream of myself and my fiance' to have a new life in the land of our heritage, following our careers to the best of our God-given abilities. I believe things should be as simple as possible for normal law-abiding citizens who wish to make their way in the world. It's that simple for EU members who can go anywhere they wish at any time, should it not be also made simpler for others?

Just my rambling thoughts,

Bueller

Well Bueller, in the age of international terrorism, immigration controls become all the more necessary. Not calling you a terrorist, but some might be. There are legal channels if you or other people wanted to come here and there there for a reason. No country in the world allows 100% of people to get in. Also, if everyone was let in with equal access to the Irish social-welfare system they could become a burden on the State or on the hospitals. Then there is the concern of competition from labour - especially cheap labour. Anyhow, the average wage is $38,000 in the US, compared to around $34,000 in this country, so you would probably be better off in the US.

Poker_Peter

buellershow wrote:

Call this naieve but shouldn't legally clean people who wish to move to another nation to work for opportunity or love of the nation be allowed to do so in as many instances as possible? If one is truly seeking freedom, should not an American who wishes to work in Ireland be able to do so as simply as possible, and the same for the Irish citizen who wishes to come here. I've long held the dream of moving to Ireland (and have family background there, although not close enough to qualify for citizenship on that basis.) I do find some of the laws to be confusing, and perhaps even restrictive for someone who would want to be self-employed without a ton of start-up capital. But I have full faith that with perserverence at some point I will fulfill the dream of myself and my fiance' to have a new life in the land of our heritage, following our careers to the best of our God-given abilities. I believe things should be as simple as possible for normal law-abiding citizens who wish to make their way in the world. It's that simple for EU members who can go anywhere they wish at any time, should it not be also made simpler for others?

Just my rambling thoughts,

Bueller

Well Bueller, in the age of international terrorism, immigration controls become all the more necessary. Not calling you a terrorist, but some might be. There are legal channels if you or other people wanted to come here and there there for a reason. No country in the world allows 100% of people to get in. Also, if everyone was let in with equal access to the Irish social-welfare system they could become a burden on the State or on the hospitals. Then there is the concern of competition from labour - especially cheap labour. Anyhow, the average wage is $38,000 in the US, compared to around $34,000 in this country, so you would probably be better off in the US (I am assuming you are from there).

Frank Grimes

Poker_Peter wrote:

Well Bueller, in the age of international terrorism, immigration controls become all the more necessary. Not calling you a terrorist, but some might be.

Besides the obvious, e.g. not letting someone into the country who has a terrorist conviciton, how would stricter immigration controls stop those who "might be" terrorists coming into the country?

Poker_Peter

Frank Grimes wrote:

Besides the obvious, e.g. not letting someone into the country who has a terrorist conviciton, how would stricter immigration controls stop those who "might be" terrorists coming into the country?

Suppose 10,000 immigrants from the Islamic world enter a country. It only takes one to kill large numbers of people. Like it or not, Islamic militants have substantial support in the Muslim world. Look at the Hamas victory in Gaza local elections recently, together with Iran's open support for Hamas. A poll a few years ago found OBL to be one of the "most admired statesmen" in Saudi Arabia.

Frank Grimes

Poker_Peter wrote:

Suppose 10,000 immigrants from the Islamic world enter a country. It only takes one to kill large numbers of people.

So should we stop immigrants from all countries then in case one kills someone?
What about the Muslims that live here, should we deport them?

Poker_Peter

Frank Grimes wrote:

So should we stop immigrants from all countries then in case one kills someone?
What about the Muslims that live here, should we deport them?

You misunderstand me. I did not say we should stop all Muslim immigration into Ireland, nor that we should deport people simply for being Muslim. I said neither of those things and I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.

The Gardai allegedly know of some AQ operatives in Ireland, which are under surveillance. I would like to know why they were even let into this country. People like that should not even be allowed to apply for asylum, since they are obviously up to no good. In future, we should work with our EU partners for common policies to avoid such people using the EU as a haven, in the same way that the 911 hijackers did in Germany, and the Madrid bombers did in Spain.

We shouldn't always have to wait for the next AQ attack before we wake up to the risk not doing the above etc. These scum do not deserve asylum in our countries. Nor do they deserve the right to work here. Slow moving wheels of bureaucracy and ambulance-chasing solicitors must not be allowed to help these people get a foothold in our country and that is that!

mycroft

Poker_Peter wrote:

The Gardai allegedly know of some AQ operatives in Ireland, which are under surveillance. I would like to know why they were even let into this country.

Evidence, links, etc........

I shan't hold my breath on this one

Poker_Peter

mycroft wrote:

Evidence, links, etc........

I shan't hold my breath on this one

Actually I am going to post such links today BRB...

Poker_Peter

Here's the evidence faster than you can say "Moderators ban him for lack of statistics/evidence .

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/865928/posts

Al-Qaeda is recruiting in Ireland
The Sunday Independent (Ireland) ^ | March 16, 2003 | JIM CUSACK and SEAN O'DRISCOLL

Posted on 03/16/2003 4:36:52 AM PST by MadIvan

GARDAI believe that al-Qaeda is attempting to recruit young Muslims in Ireland. Gardai have seized videos showing speeches by Osama bin Laden and horrific scenes of extreme Islamists carrying out massacres in Algeria.

They believe these have been used to try and recruit young Muslims here.

Identical videos were seized last year in Britain and are now part of a case against two Algerians accused of membership of al-Qaeda and promoting terrorism.

While there is no immediate Islamist terrorist threat here, gardai have been in close contact with US and British security agencies over the activities of a number of al-Qaeda figures here.

As the American and British war on Iraq looms, it has also been learned that links have emerged between suspected al-Qaeda figures here and the planned terrorist attacks in Britain involving the toxin, Ricin. One of the suspected Algerian al-Qaeda members arrested during the Ricin scare is believed to have links to the al-Qaeda cell which has been operating out of Dublin. Senior security sources have indicated that al-Qaeda's presence here has doubled in the past year with the arrival of up to 15 men. The group has also spread out of Dublin and suspects are now located in the West and South West. Despite official denials, there is increasing evidence that Ireland has been and continues to be used as an important organising centre for al-Qaeda. It is believed it may have placed key figures here while contemplating attacks on British or US targets.

It is also suspected that one of the men charged in connection with the poison plot in Britain after the discovery of Ricin in London in January may have lived here under a different name in the past two years.

This week, the Government will order heightened security precautions to deal with increased anti-war protests and possible al-Qaeda terrorist attacks in Britain to coincide with the expected invasion of Iraq later this week.

The Taoiseach was briefed at the White House and is understood to have been made aware that war in Iraq is imminent. Mr Ahern returned from Washington on Friday evening and preparations are being made for other ministers to return from St Patrick's Day celebrations around the world. The Minister for Defence, Mr Smith, is expected back early this week from his visit to Savannah, Georgia in the US but the Minister for Justice, Mr McDowell, who is in China is unlikely to return before the end of the week. Last week's Cabinet meeting was briefed by the anti-terrorism task force set up by the Minister for Defence.

Anti-war groups here are urging people to stage nationwide protests in a campaign called 'Stop the World to Stop the War'.

Irish peace groups will call on supporters to join a 10-minute solidarity stoppage at midday on Day X - the day the war breaks out - and will urge people to walk out of work, school, college, their house, or stop their car and wear a white armband.

Advice from senior gardai and Defence Forces is that no direct acts of terrorism are expected here but there is concern about the activities of an al-Qaeda cell that is active in Ireland.

Security sources are expressing concern about calls for action being made by al-Qaeda leaders, spread on the Internet in recent weeks. Sources here say suspected al-Qaeda members in Ireland have been unusually active in recent weeks and have been monitored using Internet cafes. The last time this level of activity was found was before the September 11 attacks.

On his return, the defence minister is expected to convene a meeting of the Emergency Planning Task Force involving the Defence Forces, gardai and departments of health and environment.

The Sunday Independent has also learned that the director of an al-Qaeda front company in Dublin has been linked to the only person convicted of plotting the September 11 attacks. Call logs obtained by this newspaper show that convicted student Mounir El Motassadeq contacted Dr Safar al Hawali, a former director of Mercy International Relief Agency in Dublin, nine months before the September 11 attacks.{/QUOTE]

Frank Grimes

Poker_Peter wrote:

You misunderstand me. I did not say we should stop all Muslim immigration into Ireland, nor that we should deport people simply for being Muslim. I said neither of those things and I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.

I didn't try to put those words in your mouth, I asked you a question.
If you re-read the above posts, I asked:

"Besides the obvious, e.g. not letting someone into the country who has a terrorist conviciton, how would stricter immigration controls stop those who "might be" terrorists coming into the country?"

You reply with a post about immigrants from Muslim countries, are you suggesting that only Muslims will come here to commit crimes i.e. terrorism related?
I also asked should we stop people coming here from all countries, there's a chance one of those will kill someone too. Or are Muslims the only group that should be singled out?