FAS proposes Green-card-type system for non-EU workers

Frank Grimes

Poker_Peter wrote:

Here's the evidence faster than you can say "Moderators ban him for lack of statistics/evidence .

2 year old speculation hardly constitutes evidence does it?

Poker_Peter

Frank Grimes wrote:

I didn't try to put those words in your mouth, I asked you a question.
If you re-read the above posts, I asked:

"Besides the obvious, e.g. not letting someone into the country who has a terrorist conviciton, how would stricter immigration controls stop those who "might be" terrorists coming into the country?"

You reply with a post about immigrants from Muslim countries, are you suggesting that only Muslims will come here to commit crimes i.e. terrorism related?
I also asked should we stop people coming here from all countries, there's a chance one of those will kill someone too. Or are Muslims the only group that should be singled out?

We shouldn't specifically stop all immigration by Muslims to Ireland. People who go through work-specific legal channels to get e.g. work-permits, future Green card scheme, and who are judged to be needed to fill job vacancies that cannot be filled from Irish/EU labour should be let in, provided there is no reason to suspect them of terrorist/criminal activity as we would understand these terms to mean in the West.

I think though that the work-permit scheme, in so far as the permits are granted to Muslims, should be issued mainly to Turks and only persons from countries judged not to be hotbeds of extremism. That means casting a sceptical eye on the question of work-permits to non-secular Muslim countries, in favour of secular countries like Turkey and Albania.

BYW, although many countries (including non-Muslim ones_ have terrorist problems, the worst terrorist attack in modern times was carried out by an Islamist movement AQ - 911 for people with short memories. AQ attacks mark them out as unique because of their scale, with put the IRA, ETA and the Loyalists to shame. That is why we have to be extra careful because AQ members have a reputation for being masters of disguise.

Poker_Peter

Frank Grimes wrote:

2 year old speculation hardly constitutes evidence does it?

Prove it isn't true. The report dealt with facts not speculation.

I have a feeling it would take a mushroom cloud to convince you!

Frank Grimes

Poker_Peter wrote:

I think though that the work-permit scheme, in so far as the permits are granted to Muslims, should be issued mainly to Turks and only persons from countries judged not to be hotbeds of extremism.

So, you suggest that we treat all Muslims as terrorists, execpt those from the ones from countries deemed "not to be a threat". I thought that's what you were getting at.

That is why we have to be extra careful because AQ members have a reputation for being masters of disguise.

I'm not too sure if you're joking with this one, but you do realise that the AQ you are referring to (i.e. the one the media like to tell us is threatening us etc.) doesn't exist right?

Prove it isn't true. The report dealt with facts not speculation

The extensive use of the word "believe" in that article would tend to suggest it's pretty much all based on speculation.

MrPudding

Poker_Peter wrote:

BYW, although many countries (including non-Muslim ones_ have terrorist problems, the worst terrorist attack in modern times was carried out by an Islamist movement AQ - 911 for people with short memories. AQ attacks mark them out as unique because of their scale, with put the IRA, ETA and the Loyalists to shame. That is why we have to be extra careful because AQ members have a reputation for being masters of disguise.

I heard they could also walk through walls and kill goats with a single stare. How many people have AQ killed in total? How many people have the IRA killed in total? The figures are probably closer than you think.

Have the Gardai arested any of the alleged AQ members? And how can Frank prove a negative? You cannot prove a negative. What we can say is given that no one has been arrested or charged we can assume, at this point, that the report may have been inaccurate.

Could be a case of this:

The Onion wrote:

Local Sheriff Suspects Al-Qaeda Or Teens

BARABOO, WI—Sauk County Sheriff Virgil "Butch" Steinhorst announced Tuesday that he believes a recent rash of Baraboo-area crimes was perpetrated by the al-Qaeda terrorist network or teenagers.

Above: Steinhorst investigates a recent crime.
"In this day and age, it's important for law-enforcement officials to consider global threats as well as local ones," Steinhorst said. "We could be dealing with an al-Qaeda sleeper cell attempting to collect information that they could use to plan a terrorist strike or some of those goth kids who knocked over that mailbox. Neither group has any respect for the law."

The string of unsolved crimes includes the defacement of public property, an incident of breaking-and-entering, and a string of harassing phone calls. The latest crime—the sudden disappearance of two yield signs from Hoxie Street—occurred Monday.

"We believe the yield signs were removed in order to disrupt traffic patterns, most likely to cause an accident," Steinhorst said. "The party responsible for the crime could be anyone from suspected terrorist Ahmad Ibrahim Al-Mughassil, who is on the FBI's most-wanted list, to that Fairman kid and his buddies. It could be the work of one or the other. Possibly both, though I have to say I doubt that."

Responding to an anonymous report of a blue Ford Mustang seen idling in the Circus World parking lot for several hours after closing, Steinhorst said, "In these troubled times, any and all suspicious activity is worth investigating."

"This activity matches up with the M.O. of a terrorist casing a potential target," Steinhorst said. "It also matches the M.O. of a group of teens drinking beer and fooling around. But, as Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge told us, we are in a state of heightened alert. We could come under attack anywhere, at any time, from any direction. The tip-off could be anything from a duffel bag abandoned in a bank lobby to a carload of people at a stop sign who exit the car all at once, only to reenter through different doors."

Steinhorst regularly receives Department of Homeland Security bulletins that include the names of suspected terrorists. He also makes frequent visits to Baraboo High School, where Principal Larry Stordahl provides him with a list of possible truants.

"Teens regularly act without regard for the consequences of their actions or concern for their own physical well-being," Steinhorst said. "So do terrorists."

Above: Wanted al-Qaeda operative Ahmad Ibrahim Al-Mughassil (left) and Baraboo High School junior Michael Fairman, two leading suspects in the recent rash of Baraboo-area crimes.
According to Steinhorst, the first in the series of crimes currently under scrutiny occurred several months ago, on April 1, when an unknown party pulled a fire alarm in the Baraboo Community Library during a children's puppet show.

"The perpetrators of the April 1 incident may not even live in Sauk County," Steinhorst said. "They could be terrorists based in Madison. Or it could be students from Reedsburg High School, our nearby rival."

To investigate the possibility of the latter, the Sauk County Sheriff's Department has been exchanging intelligence with the sheriff in Richland County, where unsolved crimes of a similar nature have been reported.

"Over in Richland Center, we had some criminal activity occur dangerously close to unguarded reserves of fertilizer," Richland County police officer Tim Hutter said. "The report came from one Helen Johnson, who expressed fear for the safety of her cows. A cow found lying on its side could either be the victim of a chemical agent or of some immature teenager who thinks it's funny to sneak into the pasture and tip over a helpless animal. Either way, we can't be too cautious."

Steinhorst called upon all Baraboo citizens to report anything suspicious, especially since Deputy Dale Schneider broke his wrist last week subduing a drunken patron of the Come Back Inn, and Deputy Frank Pulvermacher can't work overtime since his mother got sick with dropsy.

Steinhorst said it's important to "not let fear get the better of us, but still remain vigilant."

"Just today, we had a report of some suspicious lettering by the high-school football field," Steinhorst said. "Upon investigation, we discovered the phrase '2005 Rules' burnt into the grass. An item of clothing found at the scene leads us to believe the cryptic phrase was the work of members of next year's senior class, and not, as was originally feared, the warning of an impending terrorist attack. So we can all breathe a little easier."

"You know, that football team is really shaping up this year," Steinhorst added. "We could go all the way to State."

MrP

mycroft

Poker_Peter wrote:

As the American and British war on Iraq looms, it has also been learned that links have emerged between suspected al-Qaeda figures here and the planned terrorist attacks in Britain involving the toxin, Ricin. One of the suspected Algerian al-Qaeda members arrested during the Ricin scare is believed to have links to the al-Qaeda cell which has been operating out of Dublin. Senior security sources have indicated that al-Qaeda's presence here has doubled in the past year with the arrival of up to 15 men. The group has also spread out of Dublin and suspects are now located in the West and South West. Despite official denials, there is increasing evidence that Ireland has been and continues to be used as an important organising centre for al-Qaeda. It is believed it may have placed key figures here while contemplating attacks on British or US targets.

Uh huh for starts the scare was just that a scare any expert on bio terrorism will tell you the ricin thing was beyond overblown.

It is also suspected that one of the men charged in connection with the poison plot in Britain after the discovery of Ricin in London in January may have lived here under a different name in the past two years.

Oh it's suspected is it?

Well this suits your "the garda alledgly know"

This week, the Government will order heightened security precautions to deal with increased anti-war protests and possible al-Qaeda terrorist attacks in Britain to coincide with the expected invasion of Iraq later this week.

Gee and guess what didn't happen. Protests did, terrorist attacks no.

Advice from senior gardai and Defence Forces is that no direct acts of terrorism are expected here but there is concern about the activities of an al-Qaeda cell that is active in Ireland.

Ah concerns. right.

Security sources are expressing concern about calls for action being made by al-Qaeda leaders, spread on the Internet in recent weeks. Sources here say suspected al-Qaeda members in Ireland have been unusually active in recent weeks and have been monitored using Internet cafes. The last time this level of activity was found was before the September 11 attacks.

Uh huh. See at the moment some militant SFers may start kicking up a fuss about alledged allegations against SF and the lack of evidence, re Nth bank robbery, however, Senior Govt and Police sources have both gone on the record, to state they believe the IRA commited the robbery, you can't even give a name.

The Sunday Independent has also learned that the director of an al-Qaeda front company in Dublin has been linked to the only person convicted of plotting the September 11 attacks. Call logs obtained by this newspaper show that convicted student Mounir El Motassadeq contacted Dr Safar al Hawali, a former director of Mercy International Relief Agency in Dublin, nine months before the September 11 attacks.{/QUOTE]

And as I recall he was later aquitted.

So to support your

"garda sources alledge al qaeda are active"

you present an article two years out of date,

which voices gardai "concerns" about the "possibility" of "potential" and "possible" Al qaeda cells in ireland.

Well to Quote lionel hutz "i've got cojecture and speculation those are kinds of proof your honour"

One word. Pathetic.

billy the squid

[quotePoker_Peter]Suppose 10,000 immigrants from the Islamic world enter a country. It only takes one to kill large numbers of people. Like it or not, Islamic militants have substantial support in the Muslim worl[/quote]

Sorry but blocking 10,000 100,00 or a million muslims from entering the country. it only takes one to pull into dollymount in a rubber dingy in the middle of the night. thus blocking all muslims from entering the country will be pretty much useless,

The Gardai allegedly know of some AQ operatives in Ireland, which are under surveillance. I would like to know why they were even let into this country. People like that should not even be allowed to apply for asylum, since they are obviously up to no good. In future, we should work with our EU partners for common policies to avoid such people using the EU as a haven, in the same way that the 911 hijackers did in Germany, and the Madrid bombers did in Spain.

I didnt realise that all muslims were asslum seekers. there are muslims who are working here running businesses here or converted to islam in later life. I am still getting the impression from you that your only targeting muslims because some of them are terrorists. the catholic and protestant religions have a small number of members who happen to be terrorists and are from this country.

I think though that the work-permit scheme, in so far as the permits are granted to Muslims, should be issued mainly to Turks and only persons from countries judged not to be hotbeds of extremism. That means casting a sceptical eye on the question of work-permits to non-secular Muslim countries, in favour of secular countries like Turkey and Albania.

There you go again singling out muslims. "I dont mind muslims but only if they are from turkey" There are members of other faiths who have just as much potential to commit terrorist acts in thic country .

Poker_Peter

There you go again singling out muslims. "I dont mind muslims but only if they are from turkey" There are members of other faiths who have just as much potential to commit terrorist acts in thic country .

Just as much potential? Then why hasn't it happened on the same scale?

And as I recall he was later aquitted.

I have no such recollection whatsoever. As I recall it didn't even come to court. Where is your source for this claim?

billy the squid

1974 Dublin and monaghan

when has there been an islamic related terrorist atrocity in the republic???

I doubt the families of the victims could give a **** about the scale

funny how arcadegame2004 said the very same thing you did. your not him by any chance?

Poker_Peter

billy the squid wrote:

1974 Dublin and monaghan

when has there been an islamic related terrorist atrocity in the republic???

I doubt the families of the victims could give a **** about the scale

funny how arcadegame2004 said the very same thing you did. your not him by any chance?

No I'm not, but if that's what he said then he is right.

Dublin and Monaghan - yes an outrageous attrocity to be condemned. But AQ terrorism is far more extreme, involving trains being blown up and aircraft crashed into buildings. Ireland in particular is far less capable of protecting itself from AQ style attacks e.g. plane ploughed into IFSC in Dublin, than it is in protecting its people from Loyalist terror attacks or dissident Republican ones. We don't even have air-defences to any meaningful degree. If we can't protect ourselves from the ilk mentioned in my quote, then is it not madness to let them in?

Frank Grimes

Poker_Peter wrote:

...then is it not madness to let them in?

It's madness (and bigoted) to suggest that all Muslims are terrorists, which is exactly what you're doing.

Frank Grimes

Poker_Peter wrote:

I have no such recollection whatsoever. As I recall it didn't even come to court. Where is your source for this claim?

You're pretty wrong there, Mounir El Motassadeq was tried, accquitted and now he's being retried:
Link 1
Link 2

MrPudding

Poker_Peter wrote:

Ireland in particular is far less capable of protecting itself from AQ style attacks e.g. plane ploughed into IFSC in Dublin, than it is in protecting its people from Loyalist terror attacks or dissident Republican ones. We don't even have air-defences to any meaningful degree. If we can't protect ourselves from the ilk mentioned in my quote, then is it not madness to let them in?

OK then here what about this. You get into power and stop all the dangerous Muslims from coming to out terrorist free nation. What is to stop them from taking off from another country and flying to the evil state that won't let them in cos it thinks they are all terrorist? ****Newsflash**** aeroplanes can travel over water and between different countries.

The only thing you plan reduces is the number of Muslims in the country, perhaps this is simply what you want? If it is just say it. There is no need to try to wrap it us in "think about the children" sentiment.

MrP

Poker_Peter

Frank Grimes wrote:

You're pretty wrong there, Mounir El Motassadeq was tried, accquitted and now he's being retried:
Link 1
Link 2

Acquited? It was ruled his conviction was unsafe, but a retrial was ordered. The fact that a retrial was ordered indicates to me that the authorities still feel he has a case to answer.

For example, Colm Murphy is to get a retrial. But he has past convictions and it wouldn't surprise me if he is guilty.

If I were you I would await the outcome of the retrial before automatically saying "the retrial means their innocent".

OK then here what about this. You get into power and stop all the dangerous Muslims from coming to out terrorist free nation. What is to stop them from taking off from another country and flying to the evil state that won't let them in cos it thinks they are all terrorist? ****Newsflash**** aeroplanes can travel over water and between different countries.

The only thing you plan reduces is the number of Muslims in the country, perhaps this is simply what you want? If it is just say it. There is no need to try to wrap it us in "think about the children" sentiment.

Well terrorists in this country, as things presently stand, would have few problems boarding a plane, hijacking it, and crashing it into Sellafield. That would inevitably affect us for thousands of years literally.

Also, recall the Bali bombing.

Frank Grimes

Poker_Peter wrote:

Acquited? It was ruled his conviction was unsafe, but a retrial was ordered.

Sorry, I meant to say the decision was overturned, his friend was acquitted (Link)

Well terrorists in this country, as things presently stand, would have few problems boarding a plane, hijacking it, and crashing it into Sellafield.

What proof of this do you have, or is it just more baseless specualtion? You haven't really answered why you think all Muslims are terrorists either.

Also, recall the Bali bombing.

That was a local terrorist group that carried that out, what's your point?

deprogrammer

Poker_Peter wrote:

Acquited? It was ruled his conviction was unsafe, but a retrial was ordered. The fact that a retrial was ordered indicates to me that the authorities still feel he has a case to answer.

For example, Colm Murphy is to get a retrial. But he has past convictions and it wouldn't surprise me if he is guilty.

If I were you I would await the outcome of the retrial before automatically saying "the retrial means their innocent".



Well terrorists in this country, as things presently stand, would have few problems boarding a plane, hijacking it, and crashing it into Sellafield. That would inevitably affect us for thousands of years literally.

Also, recall the Bali bombing.

While I certaintly agree that Islamist terrorism should be a prime security concern just focusing in terrorism misses one of the most important points -that Islam itself is a threat to the whole western value system. Sharia law is cruel, unjust and intolerant and the stated aim of Islam is to conquer the world.
More and more Islam is trying to impose itself onto the Western Countries that have so foolishly chosen to play host to it. With the Democratic patterns of patterns of the developed world so strongly in favour of ethnic population growth we should ask of what use is short term economic gain if it means an future dominated or even influenced by a medieval laws and culture. Europe is slowly allowing itself slip into state dhimmitute through mass immigration..

Frank Grimes

deprogrammer wrote:

More and more Islam is trying to impose itself onto the Western Countries that have so foolishly chosen to play host to it.

I suppose asking you to back this up is pointless?
Been reading Robert Spencer's books/site I guess?

Poker_Peter

What proof of this do you have, or is it just more baseless specualtion? You haven't really answered why you think all Muslims are terrorists either.

Stop putting words in my mouth again! That's a habit of yours. Quote where I said that ALL Muslims were terrorists? I never said that and I request the Mods to tell Frank Grimes to stop making false claims that I said everyone in the Muslims world were terrorists. I did not say that and he is twisting my words to legitimise a caricature in which he is trying to tar all those who disagree with him on the immigration debate with a fascist brush.

Frank Grimes

Poker_Peter wrote:

Stop putting words in my mouth again!

You say loads of Muslims come into the country, some Muslims are terrorists, therefore we should limit Muslim immigration.
What exactly are you trying to imply by these types of statements other than we should treat all Muslims as terrorists? Sorry, all non-Turkish Muslims.

Poker_Peter

Frank Grimes wrote:

You say loads of Muslims come into the country, some Muslims are terrorists, therefore we should limit Muslim immigration.
What exactly are you trying to imply by this statement other than we should treat all Muslims as terrorists? Sorry, all non-Turkish Muslims.

I pointed out that the scale of Islamic terrorist attacks exceeds anything the IRA/UDA/ETA ever did, and hence a more restrictive approach is needed for immigrants from hotbeds of Islamic fundamentalism. Look at the how the Islamists won the elections in Riyadh a few days ago.

Frank Grimes

Poker_Peter wrote:

I pointed out that the scale of Islamic terrorist attacks exceeds anything the IRA/UDA/ETA ever did, and hence a more restrictive approach is needed for immigrants from hotbeds of Islamic fundamentalism. Look at the how the Islamists won the elections in Riyadh a few days ago.

What are the specifics of this restrictive approach you suggest, other than just not letting people into the country because they're Muslims?

mycroft

Poker_Peter wrote:

Stop putting words in my mouth again! That's a habit of yours. Quote where I said that ALL Muslims were terrorists? I never said that and I request the Mods to tell Frank Grimes to stop making false claims that I said everyone in the Muslims world were terrorists. I did not say that and he is twisting my words to legitimise a caricature in which he is trying to tar all those who disagree with him on the immigration debate with a fascist brush.

You've provided one link to a two year old article about your claim that theres a Al Qaeda cell operating in Ireland. It's been roundly dismissed.

Do you retract the claim, or do you have any more evidence?

Poker_Peter

mycroft wrote:

You've provided one link to a two year old article about your claim that theres a Al Qaeda cell operating in Ireland. It's been roundly dismissed.

Do you retract the claim, or do you have any more evidence?

On what basis has it been dismissed? Being 2 years old does not invalidate it in my opinion.

Frank Grimes

Poker_Peter wrote:

On what basis has it been dismissed? Being 2 years old does not invalidate it in my opinion.

We've pointed out the inaccuracies in that article, most of it is just speculation anyway.
Are you deliberately ignoring these posts or are you just trolling?

Poker_Peter

Frank Grimes wrote:

We've pointed out the inaccuracies in that article, most of it is just speculation anyway.
Are you deliberately ignoring these posts or are you just trolling?

Which parts of the article are you refuting?

mycroft

Poker_Peter wrote:

On what basis has it been dismissed? Being 2 years old does not invalidate it in my opinion.

That the article is over two years old and voices un named gardai sources about potential concerns over possible Al Qaeda attacks (not here) in the run up to the Iraq war.

Care to give us anything more sustantaly or recent?

Frank Grimes

Poker_Peter wrote:

Which parts of the article are you refuting?

Re read the posts, I'm not quoting the same thing back for you.

Poker_Peter

mycroft wrote:

That the article is over two years old and voices un named gardai sources about potential concerns over possible Al Qaeda attacks (not here) in the run up to the Iraq war.

Care to give us anything more sustantaly or recent?

Well, we know that years of planning most likely went into 911. So I think if anything it should give us even more cause for concern about what plans may have come to fruition in the meantime.

BTW, I have no reason to disbelief what the Indo said. If you have then I look forward to hearing what it is.

The fact that unnamed Garda sources are named should be seen in the context of a need to protect sources. Also, if they did get named the usual crowd would be accusing them of being "racists etc.".

Frank Grimes

Poker_Peter wrote:

Well, we know that years of planning most likely went into 911. So I think if anything it should give us even more cause for concern about what plans may have come to fruition in the meantime.

So are you going to explain your theories on how we'll prevent this with your stricter immigration controls?

Poker_Peter

Frank Grimes wrote:

So are you going to explain your theories on how we'll prevent this with your stricter immigration controls?

The fewer that get in, the fewer bad eggs get in.