Northern Bank Robbery

Cork

I think that SF/IRA have got to accept that all criminality has got to be ended. I think that a fudge by SF will not be acceptable.

In any future agreement between soverign elected governments and Sf/IRA - all criminality has got to be stopped.

If the IRA were involved in this bank raid - then there is no merit in them involved in the Peace Process.

true

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Read what I actually, not what you think I said. Tax 'avoidance' is not a crime. Tax 'evasion' is. I would like if all the 'avoidance' loopholes are closed.

In the previous post to this a Dub in Glasgow wrote that the movers and shakers in "this country" ( he means Ireland now ) commited crimes to avoid paying tax. Now he says "tax avoidance is not a crime". Which is it , Dub in Glasgow, or do you just make it up as you go along?


He says Of course, the Adare killing is a crime. I just believe that crime comes under the prisoner release program of the GFA. Is that a crime?

Ah, so the murder is a killing now. What about the attempted bank robbery which resulted in the "killing"? Is bank robbery a crime? Is tax evasion by Northern nationalists a crime ? If some northern Nationalists avoid or evade tax of one sort or another eg income tax , TV licence fee or whatever - does this come under the terms of the GFA and is it more or less serious than shooting or bombing people and property?

You mean it is OK for me to have a view now??

I never said it was not ok for you to have a view. I just asked you, seeing as you describe yourself as being in Glasgow, where do you mean when you wrote "this country". No wondered you fleed to Scotland if you though all the movers and shakers in Ireland were crooked, as you said you did.

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

In the previous post to this a Dub in Glasgow wrote that the movers and shakers in "this country" ( he means Ireland now ) commited crimes to avoid paying tax. Now he says "tax avoidance is not a crime". Which is it , Dub in Glasgow, or do you just make it up as you go along?

I think it is very obvious what I said

Tax 'avoidance' is not a crime. Tax 'evasion' is

No ifs or buts there although you seem to have a problem seeing the wood from the trees

Ah, so the murder is a killing now.

Argue about the semantics with yourself as it appears you do quite a lot with yourself!

Is tax evasion by Northern nationalists a crime?

I refer the myopic gentleman to my statement above

I never said it was not ok for you to have a view. I just asked you, seeing as you describe yourself as being in Glasgow, where do you mean when you wrote "this country".

Don't worry, I have picked up your patronising tone in this thread and the other one. This country (= Ireland) is still my home and I am only a temporary resident in another country. Maybe you should try it some day, it might curb your patronising and condesending outlook.

No wondered you fleed to Scotland if you though all the movers and shakers in Ireland were crooked, as you said you did.

Did I say I moved to Scotland because the movers & shakers in Ireland were corrupt or did I just say that the movers & shakers were corrupt? You seem confused.

true

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I think it is very obvious what I said

Tax 'avoidance' is not a crime. Tax 'evasion' is

But you said in black and white that the people who avoided tax commited crimes. Now which is it?


Argue about the semantics with yourself as it appears you do quite a lot with yourself!

As I said above which is it ? You cannot have it both ways.




This country (= Ireland) is still my home and I am only a temporary resident in another country. Maybe you should try it some day, it might curb your patronising and condesending outlook.

I do not care less where you really call home : for the sake of clarity, I just wanted to know where you meant when you wrote "this country".


You still wrote that the movers & shakers in Ireland were corrupt. Not some of, or a few, but "the movers and shakers". If your friends in Sinn Fein get in to power, I suppose you would have the these "movers and shakers" locked up, as you are more concerned about the crimes these "movers and shakers" comitted ( make no mistake about it , you did say they were crimes ) than certain other crimes committed by "the lads".

Is it as big a crime for a northern Nationalist to avoid or evade tax to H.M. govt?

nlgbbbblth

cdebru wrote:

this is Northern bank
Part of the National Australia group

which includes NIB

well excuse me if I dont get too concerned about a bunch of thieves being robbed

If someone broke into John Gilligans house and robbed the ****er blind would it be a crime yes would i give a **** no

if these guys are caught they will go to jail thats more than what happened to the thieves in the NIB who got of scot free how much did they steal

I cannot believe I am reading this complete and utter bollock.s


NIB was guilty of interest and fee loading
Northern Bank were robbed. I doubt very much that the two unfortunate officials that were held-up etc were involved in "stealing" as you put it.

So because they are guilty by association they deserve to be traumatised in such a way.
It's like saying that it's ok to kill Catholics in revenge for an IRA bombing.

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

But you said in black and white that the people who avoided tax commited crimes. Now which is it?

I said this.....

'For tax evasion to occur, the loophole must have already been closed and it is/was a crime.'

Tax evasion is a crime... that is so simple, why can't you accept it!

You cannot have it both ways.

Obviously you would like do

I do not care less where you really call home

Are you sure? you are certainly labouring the point in this thread and the other one. Strange way to behave for someone who does not care.

for the sake of clarity, I just wanted to know where you meant when you wrote "this country".

This country = Ireland. If I meant the UK, I will say 'in the UK' or 'over here'

You still wrote that the movers & shakers in Ireland were corrupt. Not some of, or a few, but "the movers and shakers".

Ahhh, did that offend you? One of the biggest crooks this country (= Ireland for pedants amongst us) was the Taoiseach of this country (= Ireland)!

If your friends in Sinn Fein get in to power, I suppose you would have the these "movers and shakers" locked up

Doesn't matter who comes into power, I would like them to go after the tax evaders and to lock them up if necessary.

as you are more concerned about the crimes these "movers and shakers" comitted

Your words not mine

( make no mistake about it , you did say they were crimes )

Are you denying tax evasion is a crime?

than certain other crimes committed by "the lads".

If the tax evasion by the 'movers & shakers' of this country (= Ireland) is part of a deal to try and solve the problems in this country (= Ireland) then yes I would accommodate their crimes.

Is it as big a crime for a northern Nationalist to avoid or evade tax to H.M. govt?

Are you asking me if tax evasion committed by Joe Soap is 'bigger' than tax evasion committed by the people in power including the Taoiseach? Ultimately, it is the same but we all know which should be 'bigger'.

true

Mr Dub in Glasgow, you have waffled but yet now answered the question. One minute you say " Tax 'avoidance' is not a crime. ". Next post you say " that the people who avoided tax commited crimes." Now which is it? Never mind bringing in tax evasion in to your response : we are talking about the criminality of tax avoidance. You cannot have been right in both statements.




You wrote that "The movers & shakers in Ireland over the last 30 years commited crimes to avoid paying tax." Not some of, not only a few of , but "the movers and shakers". I will spell it out as you did not understand in my previous post : the implication is that you mean ALL the movers and shakers in Ireland committed crimes to avoid paying tax.

I did not ask you to compare tax evasion of Joe Soap versus tax evasion of the Taoiseach. I was interested in your opinion of the morality of tax avoidance with regard to taxes to H.M. Govt from N.I taxpayers versus all this tax avoidance by Irelands movers and shakers. You say Irelands politicians, businesspeople, singers, shopowners , developers, etc etc have committed crimes by fiddling their taxes.
If you lived on the Falls Road and you fiddled you tax returns to H.M. Government ( not that you would of course ) .... would you consider that to be a criminal offence as well ?

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

Mr Dub in Glasgow, you have waffled but yet now answered the question. One minute you say " Tax 'avoidance' is not a crime. ". Next post you say " that the people who avoided tax commited crimes." Now which is it? Never mind bringing in tax evasion in to your response : we are talking about the criminality of tax avoidance. You cannot have been right in both statements.

Oh dear, I will repeat it again


I think it is very obvious what I said

Tax 'avoidance' is not a crime. Tax 'evasion' is

No ifs or buts there although you seem to have a problem seeing the wood from the trees

You wrote that "The movers & shakers in Ireland over the last 30 years commited crimes to avoid paying tax." Not some of, not only a few of , but "the movers and shakers". I will spell it out as you did not understand in my previous post : the implication is that you mean ALL the movers and shakers in Ireland committed crimes to avoid paying tax.

Oh no, put the word major in front of 'movers' then. Pedantry is alive and well in the actions of some.

I did not ask you to compare tax evasion of Joe Soap versus tax evasion of the Taoiseach.

OK

I was interested in your opinion of the morality of tax avoidance with regard to taxes to H.M. Govt from N.I taxpayers versus all this tax avoidance by Irelands movers and shakers. You say Irelands politicians, businesspeople, singers, shopowners , developers, etc etc have committed crimes by fiddling their taxes.

An irrelevance then as tax avoidance is not a crime. I would like the loopholes closed that lead to tax avoidance though.

If you lived on the Falls Road and you fiddled you tax returns to H.M. Government ( not that you would of course ) .... would you consider that to be a criminal offence as well ?

Evasion or avoidance?

For the 5th time

Tax evasion is a crime. Tax avoidance is not. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

cdebru

smiaras wrote:

This post has been deleted.

actually the deal has not gone through yet so they are still owned by NAB





no matter how hard I try I just cant get all worked up about thieves stealing from thieves

as too the peace process I dont see how it has any bearing on it unless it turns out to be one of the parties involved.Which there is no evidence that it was.

cdebru

smiaras wrote:

This post has been deleted.

No they have just hired consultants to examine them

cdebru

capistrano wrote:

Where's your morality? You sound like a typical shinner to me.

I don't think it is particularly immoral to steal from thieves

if they had stolen from say a credit union or a business that was not involved in stealing itself then I would have a problem but thieves stealing from thieves
good luck to them

and hopefully for the last time I'am not a ****ing shinner

smiaras

This post has been deleted.

cdebru

smiaras wrote:

This post has been deleted.

If that was aimed at me
I never said everyone in power is corrupt

nor did I say that everyone who works for banks are corrupt

that is your own sweeping statement

what I said was banks are thieves

NIB deliberate overcharging

NIB facilitated tax evasion

this the bank that Cooper flynn worked for


other banks do the words BOGUS NON RESIDENT ACCOUNT ring a bell

not to mention the AIBs recent saga

Popular misconception.
Banks are huge organisations.
Unless you can show that they deliberately take money off the customer without informing them and that this is bank policy rather than a mistake then they are not thieves.

You can perceive them as thieves but thats not enough to make them thieves.
They may charge the earth for certain services, but if you undertake to use those services in the knowledge of what they are costing or you ignore the costs in the small print, you are not being robbed, you are simply getting a bad deal.
*note* you is plural and not directed at cdebru

oscarBravo

cdebru wrote:

well excuse me if I dont get too concerned about a bunch of thieves being robbed

[...]

if these guys are caught they will go to jail thats more than what happened to the thieves in the NIB who got of scot free how much did they steal

You tell us: how much did they steal? And who exactly are "they"? Is every NIB (and by extension, NB) employee a thief? All the senior management? The shareholders?

Most importantly, who do you think will foot the bill for this crime? You reckon it will come out of the pockets of the "thieves" in the bank?

cdebru wrote:

I don't think it is particularly immoral to steal from thieves

You have some strange ideas about morality.

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

Popular misconception.
Banks are huge organisations.
Unless you can show that they deliberately take money off the customer without informing them and that this is bank policy rather than a mistake then they are not thieves.

You can perceive them as thieves but thats not enough to make them thieves.
They may charge the earth for certain services, but if you undertake to use those services in the knowledge of what they are costing or you ignore the costs in the small print, you are not being robbed, you are simply getting a bad deal.
*note* you is plural and not directed at cdebru

google NIB scandal

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

google NIB scandal

What has that to do with Bank of Ireland,AIB or Ulster Bank?
The three banks with the most customers in Ireland.
I said saying Banks are thieves doesn't make them so.
Can you address my point please.

cdebru

oscarBravo wrote:

You tell us: how much did they steal? And who exactly are "they"? Is every NIB (and by extension, NB) employee a thief? All the senior management? The shareholders?

Most importantly, who do you think will foot the bill for this crime? You reckon it will come out of the pockets of the "thieves" in the bank? You have some strange ideas about morality.

Its hard to put an exact figure

the people who organised it and the people who benefited from it are thieves

between overcharging
aiding dirt evasion
and the isle of mann scheme

who foots the bill anyone who is stupid enough to let these crims look after their money in the light of what has been proved

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

the people who organised it and the people who benefited from it are thieves

Incorrect.
Ordinary Shareholders who had no hand act or part in it would have benefited from a banks over charging via the dividend from increased profits.
They are not thieves as a result of that.
To prove thiefdom on the scale you are suggesting you would want to show a clear and definite organisation of it and proof of personal beneficiaries rather than coincidental mistakes and mis management.

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

Incorrect.
Ordinary Shareholders who had no hand act or part in it would have benefited from a banks over charging via the dividend from increased profits.
They are not thieves as a result of that.
To prove thiefdom on the scale you are suggesting you would want to show a clear and definite organisation of it and proof of personal beneficiaries rather than coincidental mistakes and mis management.

did you look into the NIB

the report said that they deliberately overcharged
None of its branch managers lost their lobs for this policy of deliberately overcharging customers

they helped people to move money to the Isle of Mann to evade the revenue commisioners

they opened Bogus non resident accounts for people to aid them evade DIRT

this did not happen by accident or as a result of mismanagement it was a deliberate course taken to maximise profits

If shareholders have held on to the increased dividend then they are thieves
they now know how the money was stolen from their customers and from the Irish people

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

What has that to do with Bank of Ireland,AIB or Ulster Bank?
The three banks with the most customers in Ireland.
I said saying Banks are thieves doesn't make them so.
Can you address my point please.

Bogus non resident accounts
that is stealing from the Irish people


the AIBS failure to correct their overcharging even when it came to the attention of senior management that is stealing

smiaras

This post has been deleted.

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

did you look into the NIB

With reference to stealing-you only specified NIB after you made a sweeping statement that banks are thieves.

As regards Bogus non residents accounts, they were so widespread, it's not accurate to describe it as an example of the Banks being thieves either.
Pensioners amongsts others signed contracts with their banks in the certain knowledge that they did not live overseas.
The Dirt tax oweable was payable by the account holder not the bank.

the AIBS failure to correct their overcharging even when it came to the attention of senior management that is stealing

heh!
Read my post a little better,I've empasised it this time for you

Earthman wrote:

Incorrect.
Ordinary Shareholders who had no hand act or part in it would have benefited from a banks over charging via the dividend from increased profits.
They are not thieves as a result of that.
To prove thiefdom on the scale you are suggesting you would want to show a clear and definite organisation of it and proof of personal beneficiaries rather than coincidental mistakes and mis management.

Cork

So what if banks overchanged. The Befast raid was not done by a Robin Hood character who will now re-distribute the loot.

The Belfast raid was done by a bunch of criminals.

The banks faced sanction and repaid over changed amounts. Criminal gangs usually buy houses and cars.

true

Cork wrote:

The Belfast raid was done by a bunch of criminals.
The banks faced sanction and repaid over changed amounts. Criminal gangs usually buy houses and cars.

Lets all hope the people who stole from the bank are jailed for a long time. It is funny how some people have funny senses of morality. For example, Dub in Glasgow says " Ireland movers and shakers committed a crime by avoiding tax " while "tax avoidance is not a crime". Twice I asked him would he be just as much against a Northern Nationalist fiddling his tax returns to H.M. Government. His failure to answer the question speaks volumes about hippocracy.

FTA69

true wrote:

I read it but it does not matter. There is no proof or even list of what the provos actually decomissioned, if anything. After all these years, the Irish and British people want them to try harder. They have, after all, by far the biggest arsenal of illegal arms in the country. Have they got rid of any semtex , for example? Why would they hang on to 30 tons of this ? We all know what it can do in the wrong hands e.g. look at Omagh. Why would they want to hang on to so much explosives and guns? There are not that many more Northern banks to rob.
Why would a Dub in Glasgow want to defend them hanging on to so much?

I doubt even the British Army has that much semtex, never mind the IRA who used the contents of one shipment for 7 years solid. Omagh was also a fertiliser bomb consisting of ammonium nitrate and deisel, besides, this is a non-issue considering this was not an IRA action. Your earlier comments about decommisioning "defensive" weapons as opposed to "offensive" weapons also bemuses me, weapons can be used for a variety of purposes, they are not limited to "defence" or "offence".

true

FTA69 wrote:

I doubt even the British Army has that much semtex, never mind the IRA who used the contents of one shipment for 7 years solid. Omagh was also a fertiliser bomb consisting of ammonium nitrate and deisel, besides, this is a non-issue considering this was not an IRA action. Your earlier comments about decommisioning "defensive" weapons as opposed to "offensive" weapons also bemuses me, weapons can be used for a variety of purposes, they are not limited to "defence" or "offence".

We know at least three IRA shipments got through. Where are the other two shipments ?

Another Omagh could be comitted by person / people who had / have access to IRA arms dumps.

Some of the IRA guns are very powerful eg capable of taking down helicoptors one mile away. Sometimes the IRA argues it needs to retain some guns for defence of catholic areas ( their words and argument, not mine ) : surely it does not need 1000 AK47's , high powered sniper rifles , semtex etc ?

BuffyBot

did you look into the NIB...

Blah blah..way off the point.

Victor

MrPudding wrote:

They will still be GBPs.

Well NIPs couldn't have republicans using Bank of England notes, now, could we?

cdebru wrote:

whoever managed to rob 22 million sterling good luck to them

Robbery = theft with menaces (this is dependent only on the victim feeling menaced, not the intention of the thief).

I feel sorry for the families that went trough that ordeal but at the end of the day no one was hurt

And the woman who was found suffering from exposure after being dumped in the middle of nowhere? And the people traumatised?

MrPudding wrote:

Quick question. I work for company X. If I rob a bank does that mean that my employer is guilty of robbing the bank?

No. However if you, he and 23 of your work mates rob a bank, thats another matter.

cdebru wrote:

If someone broke into John Gilligans house and robbed the ****er blind would it be a crime yes would i give a **** no

I understand the house in controlled by the CAB, yes it does matter.

true wrote:

Just because there may have been one or two rotten appels in the barrel

Yeah, but it was one or two in every barrel

Note availing of tax credits is tax avoidance and is legal. Evasion is illegal. Avoidance and evasion are different things, differentiated by their legality.

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

It is funny how some people have funny senses of morality. For example, Dub in Glasgow says " Ireland movers and shakers committed a crime by avoiding tax " while "tax avoidance is not a crime".

Have you got a brain? If you have, please engage it

I repeat for the nth time

Tax evasion is a crime, tax avoidance is not

Twice I asked him would he be just as much against a Northern Nationalist fiddling his tax returns to H.M. Government.

And twice I have answered you, let us recap. If a person is commiting the crime of tax evasion, they should be punished. If a person doing tax avoidance, the loopholes should be closed!

His failure to answer the question speaks volumes about hippocracy.

Your failure to read speaks volumes