Oh crap

Fysh

Wertz wrote:

Sites offering tones and wallpaper for free are all over the place. They exist alongside pay-per-download services like Jamster and the rest of the tea-leaving b4$tards. The fact that such sites don't charge for the product means they aren't making a (direct) profit from it.

Yes, there aer loads of free sites. However, as I've already pointed out, there's little or no guarantee that a midi file or image or whatever that is presented on a webpage is actually legally released to the public to do what they wish with. So, just because they're not shut down doesn't mean they're legal.

Wertz wrote:

The legality of how the tones/images get on the sites is open to discussion but since a royalty fee has already been paid to the artist in question, who exactly does this hurt?

Technically, the original creator and provider of the ringtone, through misuse of their product in such a way to deprive them of legitimate profit. In the eyes of the law, the fact that I know how to download a ringtone (wherever it may be from, and whether or not I've paid for it legitimately or not), this does not grant me the right to then subsequently distribute this to someone else. The artist has been paid one royalty fee, but two people have the product. It's not theft, in that you have not deprived someone of the use of something, but it is copyright violation and technically piracy. True, it's piracy over such a pifflingly small amount that hardly anyone is likely to deem it worthwhile to pursue you for it, but it's still illegal. And, more importantly, the artist is usually the one to suffer most. In the case of a ringtone of a pop song, perhaps not a major source of concern. But this is the exact same law that applies to downloading mp3s or DivXs, which is why it's very specifically dependent on what rights you receive when you purchase a product. You know those warnings at the beginning of DVDs that tell you you're not allowed to broadcast it publicly, etc? That's what this is about.

Note : I'm not espousing these views personally, I'm merely pointing out that this is the legal perspective on what has been discussed.

Wertz

Fysh wrote:

Yes, there aer loads of free sites. However, as I've already pointed out, there's little or no guarantee that a midi file or image or whatever that is presented on a webpage is actually legally released to the public to do what they wish with. So, just because they're not shut down doesn't mean they're legal.



Technically, the original creator and provider of the ringtone, through misuse of their product in such a way to deprive them of legitimate profit. In the eyes of the law, the fact that I know how to download a ringtone (wherever it may be from, and whether or not I've paid for it legitimately or not), this does not grant me the right to then subsequently distribute this to someone else. The artist has been paid one royalty fee, but two people have the product. It's not theft, in that you have not deprived someone of the use of something, but it is copyright violation and technically piracy. True, it's piracy over such a pifflingly small amount that hardly anyone is likely to deem it worthwhile to pursue you for it, but it's still illegal. And, more importantly, the artist is usually the one to suffer most. In the case of a ringtone of a pop song, perhaps not a major source of concern. But this is the exact same law that applies to downloading mp3s or DivXs, which is why it's very specifically dependent on what rights you receive when you purchase a product. You know those warnings at the beginning of DVDs that tell you you're not allowed to broadcast it publicly, etc? That's what this is about.

Note : I'm not espousing these views personally, I'm merely pointing out that this is the legal perspective on what has been discussed.

So to cut a long story short it's like the KaZaA/p2p/Bittorrent argument all over again. Look how long it took the authorities to shut down any part of that(for now). I think the ringtone thieves amongst us have relatively little to fear.

Meanwhile the thieving fcuks who took the OP's call credit for that MIDI will continue to con people out of their money with similar lack of consequences.

How do you teach kids (and adults) that stealing intelectual property is wrong, when we have publicly advertised companies STEALING (however "legal" they make it look) money from their phone??

Monty - the one and only

moved, and title changed

Joseph

Monty - the one and only wrote:

moved, and title changed

Why ???

Raphael

Because it was in the wrong forum?

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

deep_end

there is free software out there!!! it can convert mp3 to midi. all you need is sync your mobile to pc via serial-usb cable/Irde/bluetoot up to you.

Regards

Fysh

Wertz wrote:

So to cut a long story short it's like the KaZaA/p2p/Bittorrent argument all over again. Look how long it took the authorities to shut down any part of that(for now). I think the ringtone thieves amongst us have relatively little to fear.

Really? Less than 24 hours after the MPAA says it's going to target websites offering BitTorrent seed files, Suprnova.org goes down for good. Which is the point. Your average joe who downloads the occasional ringtone is not the target. The source of widely available "free" stuff (more often than not of questionable legality) are the targets. This is why there aren't hugely popular and well-known sites for getting free ringtones onto your phone.

Ultimately this isn't really about whether current copyright law or intellectual property. This is about companies building new markets to generate revenue, trying to maintain profit margins that were previously only available through models which are geared to bring about market saturation by encouraging the adoption of subscription models. Look at Napster - effectively a digital music rental service. As such, the actual validity of the copyright and IP laws being used isn't really relevant.

Wertz wrote:

Meanwhile the thieving fcuks who took the OP's call credit for that MIDI will continue to con people out of their money with similar lack of consequences.

Scummy as it is, it's not stealing when it's in the terms and conditions. It's vastly inflated pricing, yes, and imo it's dodgy that they don't state it more explicitly, but it's not theft. Don't mean to be nasty, but that's the way it works. The lesson learned is to read the terms and conditions before doing anything through which you can be charged.

Wertz wrote:

How do you teach kids (and adults) that stealing intelectual property is wrong, when we have publicly advertised companies STEALING (however "legal" they make it look) money from their phone??

See above. If it says in the contract that you're going to have loads of money taken off you, and you carry out the actions required to agree to the contract, you're liable. Doesn't make it right in a moral sense, but it certainly makes it legal. Which stealing intellectual property, or misusing it in ways described above, certainly isn't.

Fysh

Solitaryman666 wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Theoretically yes, since you're not old enough to legally enter the kind of contract in question. Might be worth getting someone to ring on your behalf and politely but firmly explain that you're underage and as such their contract is not legal. See where you get with it, at least...

The Corinthian

Wertz wrote:

Explain to me exactly how that is illegal. We've gone over this before about mp3 truetone thingies being intellectual property etc. but a MIDI is a MIDI; there's many sites out there with them available free as a WAP d/l so how is it if you DIY that it suddenly becomes a no-no? Nonsense IMO but prove me wrong...

Even if a site is giving them away for free you could be downloading pirated material, which is illegal. Additionally, intentionally manipulating a URL (be it Web or WAP) for the purposes of downloading something that is not publicly linked to is also illegal.

The original poster you replied to was as far as I'm aware, only looking to upload/download the tone to his own phone, NOT to provide a publicly accesible site.

If the digital rights to the media have not been bought, then he would be in receipt of pirated goods, which is still illegal.

It's the same old argument about ripping/recording music/movies for personal use only. Distributing it is a different kettle of fish.

Ripping or recording for personal use is only legal if you own the CD legally (not a bootleg copy).

Lump wrote:

I've always wondered why charities dont set up these text love finder things... cheap to start and they'd make a mint....

They find it difficult to justify the rather punitive revenue split with the Networks to their supporters.