M28 - Cork to Ringaskiddy [advance works ongoing; 2025 start; 2028 completion]

Cork Trucker

Nothing about trucks exploding I notice

betistuc

That Irish Times article mentions that 9.5 million car journeys take place on the N28 every year.( according to the steering group) That's 26,000 a day if you include week ends, bank holidays , workers annual holidays and Easter/Christmas. Exclude these and 26,000 goes higher, justification for the motorway in itself . And also according to the steering group this figure will rise to almost 66,000 journeys after construction. Even more justification !!!

Chris_5339762

Aontachtoir wrote: »

I think you're being a bit hard on TII. Civil servants don't have a magic money tree to shake. Nor do the government, to be fair. I'm sure the relevant people are aware that the Douglas flyover is a challenge.

I don't think they are really. I've been banging on about it for ages but as far as I know there are NO plans for widening the Douglas viaduct at all, nor is anyone even investigating it.

kub

marno21 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/group-challenging-cork-ringaskiddy-motorway-to-consider-appealing-court-ruling-1.4133888

The Irish Times as usual with the free PR for infrastructural objections full of items of questionable legitimacy.

I hope that this is the last that we hear of these down right liars.
I only read the start of that article as I could feel my blood pressure beginning to rise and my anger emerge.

Have this shower even considered that even if their down right ridiculous suggestion of rerouting the proposed M28 away from their homes ( ie The Mulcon Valley), that traffic would still continue to use the Mulcon Valley rather than their ridiculous suggestion as it would be a shorter journey in most cases and the dangers of same ?

Just as an example of more of their bluff here in the last paragraph;
( I read the full article after I calmed down )

The Southern Ring Road already experiences major peak time congestion with traffic jams from the Jack Lynch Tunnel to the Kinsale Road Roundabout and the new motorway would only add rather than alleviate this congestion.

They forgot to mention there of course that the upgrade of Dunkettle will go a very long way in removing that traffic.
Bluffers and down right liars is all they are.

kub

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Maybe these things have been considered and the future planning approach is to solve the problems we have funding to solve now, then solve the other problems later.

Would you prefer nothing is done until every problem is going to be solved in one hit but ignoring the fact that that level of funding is not going to be made available?

Of course I would not prefer that nothing is done until every problem is solved, that is silly because nothing would ever be done then.


This typical piece meal approach is what I am referring too.

marno21

betistuc wrote: »

That Irish Times article mentions that 9.5 million car journeys take place on the N28 every year.( according to the steering group) That's 26,000 a day if you include week ends, bank holidays , workers annual holidays and Easter/Christmas. Exclude these and 26,000 goes higher, justification for the motorway in itself . And also according to the steering group this figure will rise to almost 66,000 journeys after construction. Even more justification !!!

At present, the N28 at Bloomfield (between Rochestown jn and N40 merge) carries roughly 17 million vehicles per year. Carrs Hill is approx 9.5 million.

I would expect an immediate jump in traffic when the M28 opens as traffic moves to the M28 from Donnybrook Hill, Coach Hill, Clarkes Hill, Maryborough Hill and/or the Ferry.

mikeym

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Fallen-trees-lead-to-Cork-traffic-delays-13b6213b-5e66-4dc6-9d6f-8ab6d62efed5-ds

This happened this morning leading to major delays on Carrs Hill which lead to more traffic on the Maryborough Hill.

But a certain minority are only worried about the value of their precious properties on a certain exclusive road.

The bloody noxious gases argument is stupid when in the future we will all be driving more environmentally friendly cars.

neddynasty

kub wrote: »

I hope that this is the last that we hear of these down right liars.

From what I've been told, from someone who has been at a few of the M28 Steering Group meetings, you might get your wish. Supposedly there is approx €4k left in the fund and they don't know how to distribute it back to those who contributed as no receipts were given out. One possibility is they give it to charity. Also, the committee heading the group have resigned. Doesn't appear there is an appetite to continue the objection further but you never know.

Cork Trucker

neddynasty wrote: »

From what I've been told, from someone who has been at a few of the M28 Steering Group meetings, you might get your wish. Supposedly there is approx €4k left in the fund and they don't know how to distribute it back to those who contributed as no receipts were given out. One possibility is they give it to charity. Also, the committee heading the group have resigned. Doesn't appear there is an appetite to continue the objection further but you never know.

If that is true then it is welcome news, given the costs involved in any further legal action and the need to raise those funds i do not think those who donated the last tranche of cash will be so keen to repeat it given they were unsuccessful. As for the €4k, giving it to a charity or indeed charities is the best course of action. Any appeal needs to be lodged by Thursday week as far as i know, just say they were to seek an appeal, because this is a whole new territory are they required to stump up a security deposit of sorts in advance for both their costs and that of ABP/CCC? No activity on their Facebook page since the judgement.

AugustusMinimus

Sounds like the funds just aren’t there. Have to wonder just how many are actually funding these objections. A hell of a lot less than 11,000 I feel.

Cork Trucker

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Sounds like the funds just aren’t there. Have to wonder just how many are actually funding these objections. A hell of a lot less than 11,000 I feel.

I concur with you on that. of those who turned up at their fundraiser in RPH, i know indirectly of one person who donated €200, just say there was 10,000 who backed their campaigned and each donated that same amount each, the grand total would come to €2,000,000, or even if the same magic number of people donated a tenner, that's 100k, those who they claim to represent aren't backing them where it matters to take this case, in the bank account. Roll on the M28

kub

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I concur with you on that. of those who turned up at their fundraiser in RPH, i know indirectly of one person who donated €200, just say there was 10,000 who backed their campaigned and each donated that same amount each, the grand total would come to €2,000,000, or even if the same magic number of people donated a tenner, that's 100k, those who they claim to represent aren't backing them where it matters to take this case, in the bank account. Roll on the M28

Well as that saying goes, money talks.
We all know the lies and bluff that the steering committee came up with.
So the money aspect of this is telling
10,000 supporters, yea right, pigs fly.

Cork Trucker

kub wrote: »

Well as that saying goes, money talks.
We all know the lies and bluff that the steering committee came up with.
So the money aspect of this is telling
10,000 supporters, yea right, pigs fly.

Indeed it does. If the support was on that scale financing a legal challenge wouldn't have been a problem, as we saw, they managed it, but struggled, that was only the high court. Court of appeal/supreme court/European Courts of Justice. the higher it goes the more costly it gets. I'm hopeful that the steering group disband.

mikeym

If Buttimer calls to my door looking for a vote i'll run him out.

Hes anti M28.

Baseball72

Just jumping in on this thread which I see has been running girl 15 years.....is there an actual start date for the bypass?

When does activity cease in Tivoli and transfer to Ringaskiddy?

Aontachtoir

mikeym wrote: »

If Buttimer calls to my door looking for a vote i'll run him out.

Hes anti M28.

Cork South Central here. I will certainly be asking everyone who calls to the door what their positions are on infrastructure for Cork in general and the M28 in particular.

marno21

Baseball72 wrote: »

Just jumping in on this thread which I see has been running girl 15 years.....is there an actual start date for the bypass?

When does activity cease in Tivoli and transfer to Ringaskiddy?

Currently expected to start in 2024 and be open by 2027.

Port operations at Ringaskiddy are restricted until the M28 and Dunkettle Interchange are complete. I'm not sure how this affects when operations at Tivoli will cease.

Hibernicis

mikeym wrote: »

If Buttimer calls to my door looking for a vote i'll run him out.

Hes anti M28.

Agreed but the rest of them were as bad, just slightly more subtle. Coveney managed to remain aloof, Martin knew it was divisive and laid low but was pictured at an M28 steering group fundraiser with his side kick Desmond and Michael McGrath did a typical “on the one hand the road needs to be built but on the other hand we need to listen to the voices of my people” cop out. Not one of them stood up and said back the plan and build the road. So,I’ll be letting them all know they failed on this one.

Cork Trucker

Hibernicis wrote: »

Agreed but the rest of them were as bad, just slightly more subtle. Coveney managed to remain aloof, Martin knew it was divisive and laid low but was pictured at an M28 steering group fundraiser with his side kick Desmond and Michael McGrath did a typical “on the one hand the road needs to be built but on the other hand we need to listen to the voices of my people” cop out. Not one of them stood up and said back the plan and build the road. So,I’ll be letting them all know they failed on this one.

The most vocal political opponent was Marcia D'alton, who is allegedly an engineer by profession. The steering group chairman was calling on her to be made a TD by the "10,000" they represent. The Green Party don't want new roads built full stop and while they showed up at this also (Boyle & Bogue) they didn't seem to make that same stance. Deirdre Forde was on the scene as well. As for Buttimer, he is a lone ranger there, being the only one backing the group who is publicly backing the group and publicly affiliated, D'alton is an independent on the County Council, the area that the steering group are involved with is now in city territory, as is most of carrs hill for that matter. If i'm honest i don't know how to vote. I've had the "tax tax tax" discussions with Dan Boyle on Twitter in the last 24 hours and i am fearful of their last stint in government such as pushing us all to buy diesel when in fact they now want rid of them. I don't think i can vote any of them as FF/FG/LAB at the very least all sing from the same hymn sheet. They'll promise the sun the moon and the stars for votes and if they get in will laugh at us. Is Buttimer confirmed as running? I caught up with him in 2016 canvassing in Douglas, you couldn't meet a better political liar.

Ludo

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Is Buttimer confirmed as running? I caught up with him in 2016 canvassing in Douglas, you couldn't meet a better political liar.

Yep...his posters are up on Rochestown Road already this morning and in Curraheen.

Golfer50

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Marcia D'alton, who is allegedly an engineer by profession.

From her website. ..

Third level education:
Bachelor’s Degree in Civil Engineering (University College, Cork)
Master’s Degree in Engineering Science (University College, Cork)

PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE
Consulting environmental engineer, self-employed (2000 – 2004)
Principal consulting engineer, Fehily Timoney & Co. (1997 – 2000)
Director, Irish National Petroleum Corporation (1997 – 2000)
Consultant, Mitchelstown Renewable Energy Co-Operative (1997)
Researcher and Project Manager, University College Cork (1995 – 1997)

POLITICAL EXPERIENCE
Elected member of Passage West Town Council (2004 – 2014)
Elected member of Cork County Council (2014 to present)

Ludo

Golfer50 wrote: »

From her website. ..

Third level education:
Bachelor’s Degree in Civil Engineering .....SNIP...

Was a very odd use of "allegedly" alright which I noticed but let go. Thanks for taking the time to address it.

marno21

MOD:

Can we keep to the M28 please.

I realise there is political influences on these schemes so if you want to discuss the political angle please keep it within the realm of the M28.

Discussion of the personal lives of councillors and other elected officials, or indeed the personal lives of any person not involved in this thread is not necessary

Hibernicis

Conscious of Marno21’s post so I’ll keep this brief.

In post #770 I mentioned 3 of the 4 sitting TDs as I think their views on the M28 are important in the context of the election. I also mentioned Buttimer as he could be in contention for a seat. I omitted the other sitting TD, Ó Laoghaire, as I have found it very difficult to ascertain where he actually stands in relation to the M28. And I omitted the other “leading contenders” Bogue and Kennedy as their views are vague platitudes or non existent respectively. TDs are in a position to influence projects such as this and frankly their collective performance has been woeful in this case. It is immensely frustrating that none of the current or potential TDs for the area have been prepared to champion the project or show worthwhile leadership. Instead they have played to the gallery and in some cases openly embraced the views of a small undemocratic secretive pressure group. Our representative democracy relies on our elected representatives reflecting the will of the people and I feel very unrepresented in this instance. I’ll be raising the M28 with any of these that arrive on my doorstep and suggest others do the same.

With regard to Marcia Dalton, who as far as I know isn’t running in this election, I would separate her from all of the rest. I have no affiliation with her and disagree with her on the M28 but I also have huge respect for her principles and work ethic. While most of the other TDs/Councilors appear to have a “there go me voters I better grab my coat and follow them” approach to this issue, Marcia Dalton has on this (as she does an any issue she gets involved in) carried our extensive research, given the matter considerable thought and reached a principled and cogently argued position. Name one other public representative who would have been capable or bothered to put this together:

http://www.marciadalton.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Submission-to-ABP-18-08-2017.pdf

This isn’t unique. Many of the submissions she has put together on different topics and even her Facebook posts are balanced and well thought out. So while I disagree with her stance and some of her conclusions, I’d have huge respect for her as a principled public representative. We could do with a lot more like her.

spacetweek

I'm surprised the steering group were shocked that they lost. They only had a slim chance of getting a judicial review to work.

Cork Trucker

I don't know is it a good or a bad thing that there is very little noise from their camp since the judgement? Any appeal needs to be lodged by next Thursday i understand.

kub

spacetweek wrote: »

I'm surprised the steering group were shocked that they lost. They only had a slim chance of getting a judicial review to work.

Arrogant people usually have a reaction like that.

danny004

you cant accuse them of lack of tenacity but they are appealing.

From the steering group facebook page

DECISION OF THE HIGH COURT JUDGMENT
OF 20TH DECEMBER 2019.

Following an indepth and comprehensive review of the recent high court judgement to refuse relief by way of granting a Judicial review of the M28 APB EIA we have been advised by our legal team to seek a certificate from the high court to appeal its decision of the 20th December 2019. Following careful consideration of the advice given we have decided to give instruction to our legal team to pursue an appeal to the Court of Appeal and / or to petition the Supreme Court.

Our decision to seek leave to appeal will initially take place this coming Thursday the 23rd January 2020 at the High Court in Dublin.

Gerard Harrington
Chairman
M28 Steering group

Cork Trucker

How the hell are they affording that

Hibernicis

Cork Trucker wrote: »

How the hell are they affording that

Their finances are a mystery, and frankly a cause of concern given the impact they are having on the common good. They have never published any accounts and are neither answerable nor accountable to anybody other than themselves. The fundraising events that took place could not have raised anything like the money necessary. I’ve wondered from the get-go what vested interests are bankrolling them. If only we had a decent investigative press.

Cork Trucker

Hibernicis wrote: »

Their finances are a mystery, and frankly a cause of concern given the impact they are having on the common good. They have never published any accounts and are neither answerable nor accountable to anybody other than themselves. The fundraising events that took place could not have raised anything like the money necessary. I’ve wondered from the get-go what vested interests are bankrolling them. If only we had a decent investigative press.

I’m aware that 2 of them are self employed, one is an architect, but surely that isn’t bringing in enough to bank roll it all. What happens from here now? Can the court refuse leave?

L1011

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Can the court refuse leave?

Yes. You can only appeal on the basis of legal error at this stage and many appeals are denied.

Cork Trucker

L1011 wrote: »

Yes. You can only appeal on the basis of legal error at this stage and many appeals are denied.

Great to hear! I take it this aspect is quick enough due to the deadline to appeal?

kub

Is this a request for an appeal rather than an actual appeal beginning?

If so, if they are granted an appeal, no doubt they will be back with the begging bowl out.

danny004

kub wrote: »

Is this a request for an appeal rather than an actual appeal beginning?

If so, if they are granted an appeal, no doubt they will be back with the begging bowl out.

Well there wasn't a begging bowl first time round ,yeah there was one social event that seems to be more a token of raising funds the first time round. I think its safe to assume they have big backers which there is nothing wrong with that in itself ie a groups gotta do what they gotta do but like it or not and it continually happens in this thread in no way should their efforts be underestimated ,even if they ran out of steam today they have gone an awfully long way and it doesn't appear they are out of steam yet. Number of supporters where they are getting funds from etc is neither here nor there.

hans aus dtschl

danny004 wrote: »

safe to assume they have big backers which there is nothing wrong with that

Agreed about nothing wrong with that, but I don't understand in whose else's interests could this possibly be?

danny004

id say its themselves its a fairly affluent area of the city and probably homes some wealthy people who could string the cost together without going public

Hibernicis

danny004 wrote: »

I think its safe to assume they have big backers which there is nothing wrong with that

I disagree strongly. I think we are entitled to know who is backing this. It is having a substantial impact on a lot of people's lives and so is a matter of public interest. Those who are impacted should know who they are up against. It was certainly never the intention of the planning/judicial system that key players could hide behind a public front. That would appear to be exactly what is happening in this case.

I agree with you that the fundraising events were no more than token gestures. The money is coming for somewhere.

Cork Trucker

I don't know how much money self employed people need behind them but i know with near certainty that 3 of them are, maybe this is a partial factor. Not a hope in hell the "10,000" they claim to represent contributed. Every time i look at the video on their Facebook page i can only laugh.

Hibernicis

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I don't know how much money self employed people need behind them but i know with near certainty that 3 of them are, maybe this is a partial factor. Not a hope in hell the "10,000" they claim to represent contributed. Every time i look at the video on their Facebook page i can only laugh.

Of the four I know to be self employed, two might be described as being of very average net worth, one comfortable and one probably has a bit more. None are anywhere near wealthy (as in net worth = millions). There is one family of which three/four members have been involved at different times, and they do have some land, but again it's unlikely that they are bankrolling the operation.

It is frustrating that the backers do not have to be declared. For all the good it will do I will be raising this with the politicos on the doorstep, if any of them turn up.

Cork Trucker

Hibernicis wrote: »

Of the four I know to be self employed, two might be described as being of very average net worth, one comfortable and one probably has a bit more. None are anywhere near wealthy (as in net worth = millions). There is one family of which three/four members have been involved at different times, and they do have some land, but again it's unlikely that they are bankrolling the operation.

It is frustrating that the backers do not have to be declared. For all the good it will do I will be raising this with the politicos on the doorstep, if any of them turn up.

While i would be raising it with all the politicians the one i'd be gunning for is Buttimer.

Hibernicis

Cork group seeks to appeal permission for N28 upgrade

High Court ruled in December that €220m project properly assessed by An Bord Pleanála

Irish Times - 21.01.2020

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cork-group-seeks-to-appeal-permission-for-n28-upgrade-1.4146533


Based on the way this is written it appears this that they will be seeking a Judicial Review of the Judicial Review. :rolleyes:

Hopefully they will be refused Leave to Appeal by the High Court (it was previously erroneously reported that this had already been done) and if and when they petition the SupremeCourt it will also tell them to take a hike. The bar for a direct Supreme Court challenge is high and would rest on a legal issue of significant importance.

danny004

Hibernicis wrote: »

I disagree strongly. I think we are entitled to know who is backing this.

Disagree as strongly as you like fact of the matter is your not entitled to know ,how private citizens choose to spend their money on private services within the confines of the law is purely up to them ,its not a political party its a group of individuals working collectively and therefore are not bound by scrutiny.

as for others knowing one member who has land nonsense the truth is you ,me ,all of us have no knowledge of the financial wealth of who is either financially sympathetic or a member of the wider group -i would have thought it is pretty obvious its probably not the board members and their own wealth funding all of this

Hibernicis

danny004 wrote: »

its probably not the board members and their own wealth funding all of this

That is the key point. After the many experiences we have had with planning "corruption" in this country, much of which involved people with significant resources operating unseen in the background, we are entitled to transparency. I'm not for a moment disputing people's right to engage in the planning process. But we absolutely should know who is involved and where the funding is coming from.

Ludo

Hibernicis wrote: »

That is the key point. After the many experiences we have had with planning "corruption" in this country, much of which involved people with significant resources operating unseen in the background, we are entitled to transparency. I'm not for a moment disputing people's right to engage in the planning process. But we absolutely should know who is involved and where the funding is coming from.

Should that knowledge affect how the appeal is treated and the outcome?

If not, why do we need to know.
If so, that is against the right of anyone to engage in the planning process.

Aontachtoir

Ludo wrote: »

Should that knowledge affect how the appeal is treated and the outcome?

If not, why do we need to know.
If so, that is against the right of anyone to engage in the planning process.

How would requiring objectors against strategic infrastructure projects to declare their sources of income and financial conflicts of interest prevent them engaging in the planning process?

If they are not taking money from shadowy groups, they have no problem and can go ahead. If they are taking money from shadowy groups, then all they have to do is declare where the money is coming from and they can still go ahead. The Irish public deserve to know who is preventing necessary public infrastructure being built.

It will ideally have no impact on the trial itself, but could help prevent frivolous cases being taken in the first place by shining a light on those who have vested interests in opposing infrastructure. The Irish public shouldn't have to lose out for their benefit.

danny004

Aontachtoir wrote: »

How would requiring objectors against strategic infrastructure projects to declare their sources of income and financial conflicts of interest prevent them engaging in the planning process?

If they are not taking money from shadowy groups, they have no problem and can go ahead. If they are taking money from shadowy groups, then all they have to do is declare where the money is coming from and they can still go ahead. The Irish public deserve to know who is preventing necessary public infrastructure being built.

It will ideally have no impact on the trial itself, but could help prevent frivolous cases being taken in the first place by shining a light on those who have vested interests in opposing infrastructure. The Irish public shouldn't have to lose out for their benefit.

Im sure this isnt some star wars emperor or drug barons or property developers funding this more likely just wealthier people who want to protect the status quo around their properties who by the way are also the "the Irish Public" ,its a bunch of objectors playing the system really well and any other speculation about who they are ,how the are funded and their values that people believe they should have towards the common good doesn't really add anything

Aontachtoir

danny004 wrote: »

Im sure this isnt some star wars emperor or drug barons or property developers funding this more likely just wealthier people who want to protect the status quo around their properties who by the way are also the "the Irish Public" ,its a bunch of objectors playing the system really well and any other speculation about who they are ,how the are funded and their values that people believe they should have towards the common good doesn't really add anything

That's fair, maybe I'm being too harsh - there are good-faith objections as well as the bad-faith ones. I am quite frustrated by how easy it is to stall important things like this in this country though, and I am concerned that this project will be on the chopping block after the election. I do think more needs to be done to stop frivolous objections like these, but I am open to different solutions.

marno21

It's the same everywhere. Older, more affluent people pulling up the ladders before them. It can be seen with every proposed housing or major public transport scheme in the country. It's just that the group here are better resourced than some of the other groups.

It's purely a delaying tactic anyway. If this does get overturned TII/Cork County Council can plough the M28 through Fernhill Golf Club instead and there's your M28

Ludo

Aontachtoir wrote: »

How would requiring objectors against strategic infrastructure projects to declare their sources of income and financial conflicts of interest prevent them engaging in the planning process?

We have already had speculation here about them owning land, their net worth etc. Can you imagine what this place would be like if the names were public? Why should anyone have to subject themselves to that to exercise their democratic right?

I don't care who they are as long as they follow the law as it stands. The law itself being right or wrong is another matter of course.

You even said yourself that "IDEALLY have no impact on the trial itself". that ideally recognises that it might impact it which would be wrong.

Aontachtoir wrote: »

That's fair, maybe I'm being too harsh - there are good-faith objections as well as the bad-faith ones. I am quite frustrated by how easy it is to stall important things like this in this country though, and I am concerned that this project will be on the chopping block after the election. I do think more needs to be done to stop frivolous objections like these, but I am open to different solutions.

What is a bad-faith objector? People object to things all the time and they do it for reasons that are important to them and for their own benefit. Just because you don't happen to agree with them does not make them bad-faith or frivolous.