M28 - Cork to Ringaskiddy [advance works pending; 2024 start]

Cork Trucker

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Very much a political matter given the input of various politicians, especially Jerry Buttimer given his support for the group.

Let’s not forget Micheál Martin, Mary Rose Desmond, Dan Boyle & Lorna Bogue, all of whom attended their fundraiser in RPH

markodaly

danny004 wrote: »

For what as a means of stopping procedure or adding another layer of scrutiny that will go nowhere or hoping embarrassment will stop funding or satisfying curiosity.
If i said the man who owns the maxol garage on carrs hill is funding them because he doesn't want traffic diverted away from his garage (for clarity I dont know him and assume hes not) so what why should that interfere with a judicial procedure ,its his money he can do what he likes with it .

As I said, no one is saying that, that man shouldn't give money or funds, if he doesn't want to, but perhaps people have a right to know, who is funding these objections.
I just think its better to live in a society that is more transparent and not secrative.

There are private benefactors and patrons who remain anonymous all through the country in every walk of life who fund all sorts of stuff ,are we saying the private donor should not be allowed.

It really depends, doesn't it. In cases where objections are funded to stop and delay multi-million euro projects, I think transparency is better.

cantalach

danny004 wrote: »

And lets be honest the probability is its funded by some wealthy locals who dont want a road near their home.

I’d have thought the greater probability is that the funding comes from landowners who stand to make more money selling land for development when there isn’t a motorway running past it.

KrisW1001

Jerry Buttimer, Micheál Martin, Lorna Bogue and company are entitled to put their support behind any local cause they believe in. I, as a voter, am entitled to drop them down the order on my ballot because of it. I'm choosing who most closely represents my views, and it's helpful to actually know those views, and who held them, in advance.

If, as I suspect, it turns out that some local group of business interests in Cork was funding the prolongation of this debacle all along, this won't remain a secret for long. Cork's too small a place for secrets.

It's not an ideal way to find out, but I think the alternatives would either waste taxpayer's money instead (if these were publicly funded), or prevent those who really are marginalised from being able to bring appeals to court (if appellants had to disclose the identity of all their funders).

AugustusMinimus

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Jerry Buttimer, Micheál Martin, Lorna Bogue and company are entitled to put their support behind any local cause they believe in. I, as a voter, am entitled to drop them down the order on my ballot because of it. I'm choosing who most closely represents my views, and it's helpful to actually know those views, and who held them, in advance.

If, as I suspect, it turns out that some local group of business interests in Cork was funding the prolongation of this debacle all along, this won't remain a secret for long. Cork's too small a place for secrets.

It's not an ideal way to find out, but I think the alternatives would either waste taxpayer's money instead (if these were publicly funded), or prevent those who really are marginalised from being able to bring appeals to court (if appellants had to disclose the identity of all their funders).

Surely the pace of the appeals is the biggest issue. Months and months between hearings. Matters of significant national importance should be prioritised while still giving everyone concerned a fair hearing.

The sheer delays all of this is causing is a directed tactic of the group. Delay the project in the hope that it may get shelved for budgetary or a change in political support of the project.

danny004

cantalach wrote: »

I’d have thought the greater probability is that the funding comes from landowners who stand to make more money selling land for development when there isn’t a motorway running past it.

Dont want a road near their home ,dont want a road near their land so what. The objection is based around predominantly the quarry but the motive is clearly something else but as far as the planning process goes only one of these does and should count.

Donegal Storm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Surely the pace of the appeals is the biggest issue. Months and months between hearings. Matters of significant national importance should be prioritised while still giving everyone concerned a fair hearing.

The sheer delays all of this is causing is a directed tactic of the group. Delay the project in the hope that it may get shelved for budgetary or a change in political support of the project.

This is the thing I've noticed most about this case (and with many other projects). I only drop into this thread once in a blue moon but it's like groundhog day every time.

I admittedly don't know much about the workings of our courts system but from the outside it's a complete farce, waiting months and months for a case to be heard only to immediately have it adjourned for several more months. And after the whole ordeal is finally settled they can immediately appeal and restart the whole process again. Surely the system is in need of major reform?

KrisW1001

It's not just planning appeals. It happens for all kinds of Court business. Even routine things that really should be resolved quickly for the sake of all involved (e.g., inquests after tragic deaths) can be stuck for years.

The Courts are the one area of the State where the Government has very little power to change things, and I get the impression sometimes that a significant number of the people involved are just fine with the current, leisurely pace, and don't feel any need to improve it.

lawrencesummers

A cynic could form that opinion that Michael Martin could be influencing the speed of decision of the courts to ensure the verdict isn’t delivered before the next general election to ensure there is no negative impact on his precarious voting advantage of 2300 votes from 2020.


But thankfully I’m not a cynic and we all know that there is a clear and wide separation between the judicial and political arms of the state so this couldn’t possibly be the case.

KrisW1001

I don't think there's any electoral advantage to hindering this scheme - actually it's the opposite: Cork South Central isn't just Rochestown - the thousands of people who commute to/from Ringaskiddy and who live in Carrigaline would be very grateful to any politician who got this problem fixed - they all have votes too.

I would imagine that the vast majority of people along the corridor want this road built, and the anger is mostly directed at a small, wealthy group using that wealth to try to put their own vested interests ahead of the greater good.

AugustusMinimus

KrisW1001 wrote: »

I don't think there's any electoral advantage to hindering this scheme - actually it's the opposite: Cork South Central isn't just Rochestown - the thousands of people who commute to/from Ringaskiddy and who live in Carrigaline would be very grateful to any politician who got this problem fixed - they all have votes too.

I would imagine that the vast majority of people along the corridor want this road built, and the anger is mostly directed at a small, wealthy group using that wealth to try to put their own vested interests ahead of the greater good.

I get the impression that few if anyone is actually aware of the scheme.

Mention roads and Carrigaline and all that people will mention is the half arsed job on the Carrigaline roundabout.

I think most would be up in arms if they actually knew what was going on.

lawrencesummers

KrisW1001 wrote: »

I don't think there's any electoral advantage to hindering this scheme - actually it's the opposite: Cork South Central isn't just Rochestown - the thousands of people who commute to/from Ringaskiddy and who live in Carrigaline would be very grateful to any politician who got this problem fixed - they all have votes too.

I would imagine that the vast majority of people along the corridor want this road built, and the anger is mostly directed at a small, wealthy group using that wealth to try to put their own vested interests ahead of the greater good.

Numerous politicians appear to think differently when they are turning up at meetings against it.

Personally I wouldn’t vote for someone who opposed it, but a political candidate might conclude that the status quo is better than change when they are knocking on doors.

What might need to happen is a public outcry akin to the one that got the macroom bypass started coincidentally days before the last GE

TheChizler

lawrencesummers wrote: »

But thankfully I’m not a cynic and we all know that there is a clear and wide separation between the judicial and political arms of the state so this couldn’t possibly be the case.

Good thing we voted to put judges pay in the control of politicians eh?

lawrencesummers

TheChizler wrote: »

Good thing we voted to put judges pay in the control of politicians eh?

That and their actual appointment to the role....

Leonard Hofstadter

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Jerry Buttimer, Micheál Martin, Lorna Bogue and company are entitled to put their support behind any local cause they believe in. I, as a voter, am entitled to drop them down the order on my ballot because of it. I'm choosing who most closely represents my views, and it's helpful to actually know those views, and who held them, in advance.

If, as I suspect, it turns out that some local group of business interests in Cork was funding the prolongation of this debacle all along, this won't remain a secret for long. Cork's too small a place for secrets.

It's not an ideal way to find out, but I think the alternatives would either waste taxpayer's money instead (if these were publicly funded), or prevent those who really are marginalised from being able to bring appeals to court (if appellants had to disclose the identity of all their funders).

They are, but those of us who vote in CSC are equally entitled to not vote for politicians against it. Any politician (or would be politician) that I know is against the M28 will not be getting my vote, not now, not ever.

We cannot have our city held back by the greed and selfishness of a few wealthy landowners in the Cork equivalent of Dublin 4.

KrisW1001

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

They are, but those of us who vote in CSC are equally entitled to not vote for politicians against it. Any politician (or would be politician) that I know is against the M28 will not be getting my vote, not now, not ever.

We cannot have our city held back by the greed and selfishness of a few wealthy landowners in the Cork equivalent of Dublin 4.

That was exactly my point.

Actually, I really don't have much of a problem with politicians attending meetings from this kind of group: the campaigners are, after all, constituents, and it's the job of a politician to listen to constituents. But they should also make it their business to find out what the general view of the public is, not just the views of people who can rent a function room and lay on food and drink afterwards. And, as I said, if they stand up and say "I'm against this", I can decide to not vote for them because they took that position. That's how democracy works.

The N28 is unsafe at its current traffic levels, and this will get worse as the Port of Cork generates more heavy-goods traffic after Brexit. Nobody's view or speculative land bank is worth a life.

kub

So while the legal world crawls along akin to a slug, we have an announcement this morning by Brittany Ferries who are introducing a new twice weekly freight Ro Ro service from Ringaskiddy, in the real world.

https://brittanyferriesnewsroom.com/brittany-ferrries-introduces-three-new-freight-only-services-from-ireland-to-france/

I cannot help but imagine how Ringaskiddy could now be thriving with RO RO services to Main Land Europe like Rosslare is, if only Dunkettle and this M28 were sorted years ago. The road infrastructure around Rosslare is not at all fantastic.

Cork Trucker

We’re still none the wiser if the steering group have formally petitioned the supreme court on top of it

kub

Cork Trucker wrote: »

We’re still none the wiser if the steering group have formally petitioned the supreme court on top of it

And I am still none the wiser as to whether the narrow section of the existing N28 is wider than these individuals own driveways

Cork Trucker

kub wrote: »

And I am still none the wiser as to whether the narrow section of the existing N28 is wider than these individuals own driveways

If I were a betting man I’d say the driveways are bigger

danny004

Cork Trucker wrote: »

We’re still none the wiser if the steering group have formally petitioned the supreme court on top of it

Petition lodged on 6th of Jan

Cork Trucker

danny004 wrote: »

Petition lodged on 6th of Jan

Any credible source available? I’m not disputing what you’re saying, there just seems to be nothing around to confirm it

danny004

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Any credible source available? I’m not disputing what you’re saying, there just seems to be nothing around to confirm it

yeah came from someone I know who is friendly with geard harrington they are expecting a decision by end of April at latest.

Cork Trucker

danny004 wrote: »

yeah came from someone I know who is friendly with geard harrington they are expecting a decision by end of April at latest.

If he’s saying it that’s enough then. Hopefully the petition is rejected

marno21

TII were in front of the Oireachtas Transport Committee today where the delays on progressing the M28 were highlighted.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts-congestion-blamed-for-road-project-delays-40042976.html

Completely correct that this has now spent 45 months in the planning system with no evidence presented yet that there is any issues with the scheme as submitted. Crazy stuff.

mydiscworld

Firstly, another month was lost by High Court not signing their order for a full month after the ruling was given.

Then steering group waited til the final 21st day allowed to appeal on Jan 6th.

Even if they fail come April or whenever, they've succeeded in delaying it for years over spurious objections

riddlinrussell

mydiscworld wrote: »

Firstly, another month was lost by High Court not signing their order for a full month after the ruling was given.

Then steering group waited til the final 21st day allowed to appeal on Jan 6th.

Even if they fail come April or whenever, they've succeeded in delaying it for years over spurious objections

Agreed, the validity of the objections is really a minor issue here, these cases should never have taken so long to process. Even if objections had been totally valid it would still have benefited the NTA to know that within 3 months or whatever in order to rectify the issues instead of the multi year saga.

Its seen up north with the Anti A5 Alliance, I think at least once they have stated their aim is simply to delay construction for as long as possible, and they managed to get the project stuck in an environmental impact assessment loop for a decade.

kub

marno21 wrote: »

TII were in front of the Oireachtas Transport Committee today where the delays on progressing the M28 were highlighted.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts-congestion-blamed-for-road-project-delays-40042976.html

Completely correct that this has now spent 45 months in the planning system with no evidence presented yet that there is any issues with the scheme as submitted. Crazy stuff.

My favorite bit from that article :


Fine Gael Senator Jerry Buttimer said the process might have gone more smoothly if TII had “engaged meaningfully” with local residents.
“The residents in the area were trampled on,” he said. “The majority of people were not against the road but were against the way they were treated.”


Jerry, just to inform you. This group tried scare tactic's and spurious claims of exploding trucks, fumes, you name it.


I have to admire TII's patience in dealing with such ' organisations '

AugustusMinimus

kub wrote: »

My favorite bit from that article :


Fine Gael Senator Jerry Buttimer said the process might have gone more smoothly if TII had “engaged meaningfully” with local residents.
“The residents in the area were trampled on,” he said. “The majority of people were not against the road but were against the way they were treated.”


Jerry, just to inform you. This group tried scare tactic's and spurious claims of exploding trucks, fumes, you name it.


I have to admire TII's patience in dealing with such ' organisations '

What the hell is he on about?

danny004

kub wrote: »

I have to admire TII's patience in dealing with such ' organisations '

Dont fool yourself in admiring them ,remember they first published the initial design in 2005 and it took them until 2017 to bring it to ABP so working at breakneck speed isnt exactly their forte either