What do we do if the British leave?

regi

"Forced out"? Where do you get that idea from? They would meet the requirements from Irish Citizenship under the recently-passed Citizenship referendum. Do not be so silly!

A great deal of northern protestants fear being ethnically cleansed, in pretty much the same way that the cork protestants were during the 1920s.

daveirl

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ionapaul

It's very easy for people in the Republic to support an United Ireland from afar, as these polls indicate. I am very certain if a pollster asked 1,000 Irish people 'Would you be in favour of free childcare for all, free nursing homes for all and free medical care for all' WITHOUT mentioning taxes, a majority would be in favour! Re-craft the unification poll to 'Are you in favour of an United Ireland, with a massively increased tax burden for all Irish workers' and show me the majority then. Don't even have to mention civil strife, Loyalist bombings down South, or the requirement of a larger army to police it all (quadruple the present size? more?).

Of course, some would have you believe that once Ireland is united, the 'confused children' of the Unionist camp will realise what some knew all along - they are actually Irish, not British, and can now join with the rest of us in building a wonderful, multicultural nation! No need for additional taxes as we'll all get along grand...

monument

simu wrote:

If the British got sick of holding NI up and we refused to take it on, they'd have to survive on their own. Maybe this would take their minds off pointless sectarian bickering...

No, they would just kill each other. A forced UI would end in lots of blood too. Any thing fast and radical is just a bad idea.

arcadegame2004

ionapaul wrote:

It's very easy for people in the Republic to support an United Ireland from afar, as these polls indicate. I am very certain if a pollster asked 1,000 Irish people 'Would you be in favour of free childcare for all, free nursing homes for all and free medical care for all' WITHOUT mentioning taxes, a majority would be in favour! Re-craft the unification poll to 'Are you in favour of an United Ireland, with a massively increased tax burden for all Irish workers' and show me the majority then. Don't even have to mention civil strife, Loyalist bombings down South, or the requirement of a larger army to police it all (quadruple the present size? more?).

Of course, some would have you believe that once Ireland is united, the 'confused children' of the Unionist camp will realise what some knew all along - they are actually Irish, not British, and can now join with the rest of us in building a wonderful, multicultural nation! No need for additional taxes as we'll all get along grand...

First of all, polls of the Protestant community in NI show that 71% of them would accept a UI IF a majority in NI voted for it. There would be little point in carrying out terrorist attacks in the South because there is no precedent since the 20th century for a former colonial power seeking to re-incorporate a former colony. There would be no British national interest in invading NI again. So the whole point of terrorism would be gone. There would be no union to preserve with Britain anymore. Also, Loyalism is far less well-armed than Republicans, so their capacity for an IRA style bombing campaign in the South would not be there.

I would actually point out to you that the preceden of the whites in South Africa having accepted the end of Aparteid is a good parallel with Unionists learning to accept a United Ireland, should a majority in NI vote for it. Another parallel would be the Baltic states, which were not partitioned into Russian and non-Russian-speaking areas, after they became independent.

Originally posted by DaveirlReally? Could you possibly link to those polls please because the only polls I've ever seen on the North on the question of a United Ireland have shown a sizeable minority of Catholics who don't want a United Ireland

If you read my quote carefully you will see that I was referring to 98%-99% of Sinn Fein voters. Most polls show at least 60% of NI Catholics would vote "Yes", and that about 20% are undecided, with 18% against.

daveirl

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MrPudding

arcadegame2004 wrote:

First of all, polls of the Protestant community in NI show that 71% of them would accept a UI IF a majority in NI voted for it. There would be little point in carrying out terrorist attacks in the South because there is no precedent since the 20th century for a former colonial power seeking to re-incorporate a former colony. There would be no British national interest in invading NI again. So the whole point of terrorism would be gone. There would be no union to preserve with Britain anymore. Also, Loyalism is far less well-armed than Republicans, so their capacity for an IRA style bombing campaign in the South would not be there.

Are you seriour? There would be no point in terrorism? How about stopping a united Ireland? These people are fcuking lunatics! We are talkin about guys that lift people of the streets in Catholic areas and torture them in pubs. These people throw blastbombs through each others windows. Do you think they will simply say "hmmm, well given that there is no precedent for us to attempt to bring about re-partitioning of the state there is no point in killing a few people." Seriously what are you fcuking like?

But it's OK, they don't have many weapons. So that OK then. Did the PIRA come into being with all the weapon they would ever have? Do ya think that maybe they could sell a few more drugs and buy some more?

I don't know if NI could be self financing. The biggest employer by far is the government. Where do their wages come from? The tax taken from them is, obviously, considerably less than they are paid.

It doesn't really have any indigenous industry. Of course Ireland didn’t really either. Can we afford the time it will take for the Celtic Tiger to move to the North. Will it even be able to? Do you think the Unionists will take a United Ireland lying down? Christ, they think they are the most British people in the UK. They will not simple sit down and say “alright so, a pint of stout please. Ah be gora.” It might not really be a place that attracts a lot of inward investment.

I think Ionapaul makes a good point. Like I said earlier, the romantic notion is great right up to the point where reality comes crashing down.

Arcadegame, can you provide links to those polls. You may well be correct in the figures but it is unlikely the questions were asked like Ionapaul suggested.

MrP

gandalf

Mr. Pudding make your point but next time make it more politely or else I will take it as a personal insult and ban you.

Arcadegame if your going to quote statistics then please provide a link or reference, we have asked you to do this in the past and I am getting sick of it now. If you continue like this then you will be banned as well.

true

Regi wrote:

A great deal of northern protestants fear being ethnically cleansed, in pretty much the same way that the cork protestants were during the 1920s.

Exactly and well said. Sein Feiners refuse to consider this point. Northern protestants fears are well founded, based on lots of experiences over the years. Sein Feiners think all was rosy for all minorities ( eg the Limerick jews, who were all actually burnt out in the 1930s ) here in the 20th century. They also look at how many protestants were intimidated from border counties in the 1970s/ 1980s etc eg by shooting only sons on farms who happened to be part time RUC or UDR members etc, or who done building work on a police station or whatever. Northeners also look at how protestant numbers have shrunk in the 26 counties since the foundation of the "free state".

billy the squid

actually true, the limerick pogroms were the work of the redemptorists order and were more of a religious thing than a nationalist thing. a little different to the situation in cork during the 1920s.

oh and it happened long before the 1930s too. 1904 1905 would be closer to the correct date.

marco murphy

Ireland's economy is doing better than Britain's at the minute.

true

" Irelands economy is doing better than Britains at the minute ".

The two countries are on a completely different scale , and have completely different economies and commitments. Cars a a lot cheaper in the UK. A lot of thing has got very expensive in Ireland ( rip-off Ireland some call it ). Schools etc are cheaper up North for ALL sections of society. Most protestants south of the border have to pay through the nose for secondary schooling , for example. Heath services are thought to be better in the UK. Time will tell how Ireland economy develops in the future.

Ireland economy was not always "doing better ". However, I am proud that our Irish economy is now doing so well, and long may it continue to do do, but we must look at it realistically.
Irelands has really only boomed economically since the mid to late nineties. The UK has had a labour government in power since then, so what do you expect. We have have a centre to right wing ( FF-PD ) govt and have obviously done well as a result.

There are other factors : we have done well partly thanks to all the EC grants we got over the years, ( a large percentage of which was paid by Britain, as the EC second biggest contributer ), and partly due to massive inward investment from eg American multinationals, and partly due to very hard work by all of the people living here. Not everyone could envisage the people of the Falls or the Shankhill or the Bogside being so industrious or creative or hard working.

All of this is a distraction from the point made a few posts ago : the 1.1 or 1.2 million people in the North who do not want to join us in a united Ireland have their reasons, and we must respect that. The reasons are not just economic : they, along with a lot of people south of the border, know what Sinn Feins and other republicans real attitude is them is. They ( SF and their friends ) would have them made to feel like second class citizens at best, and at worst force / intimidate them out. I have heard it , I have read it and nobody can say the precedents have not been set.

FTA69

The crux of your statement there true, is that people were shot (regardless of religion) for being members of the RUC or UDR. Their religion was inconsequential and to prove this one only has to look at the number of Catholic members of the occupation forces who were killed by the IRA. Whether someone is a part time member of the police or UDR (both sectarian repressive organisations) is also irrelevant, the fact remains they were still members of an armed group and as such were legitimate targets.

To reiterate myself, the fact they were Protestants was coincidental.

As for future pogroms against Unionists, who would carry these out? The Republican Movement has absolutely no interest in doing so, every meeting I have been at where that question came up it was always said that we have no intention of persecuting Unionists the way Nationalists were. People have the good sense to realise that 20% of the population cannot nor will not be suppressed.

marco murphy

Yep,its pretty annoying to think people are biased to this ''sinn fein will force them out(ethnic cleansing)''.Them being unionists or protestants,

true

FTA69 wrote:

The crux of your statement there true, is that people were shot (regardless of religion) for being members of the RUC or UDR. Their religion was inconsequential and to prove this one only has to look at the number of Catholic members of the occupation forces who were killed by the IRA. Whether someone is a part time member of the police or UDR (both sectarian repressive organisations) is also irrelevant, the fact remains they were still members of an armed group and as such were legitimate targets.


Go to any of the border counties and you will see how the border has been rolled back 20 miles during the troubles. Many isolated farming families with part time or retired RUC or UDR members feel they were targeted. Especially the farms with only one son. The IRA knew what it was doing alright.

You say " you only have to look at the Catholic members of the occupation forces who were killed by the IRA ". Yes, but not the same numbers, and Catholic RUC were intimidated out of unsafe areas also.

The vast majority of the population do not see them as occupation forces, nor as sectarian repressive organisations. If they were , why did Catholics join them, know they could never safely return to friends and relations in Catholic areas again?

I could think of other sectarian repressive organisations which I will not mention.

Can you not forget phrases from the past like "occupation forces"? If you lived in a country that was really occupied, you would know all about it.

FTA69

I don't think the IRA took notice if there was one son or not, they simply sought out targets and took action against them. Very, very few Catholics joined either the RUC or British Army, the ones who did it usually did it for the money and were unsurprisingly boycotted by their family and friends. Many Catholic RUC men were also intimidated right back out of those organisations by the bigots they were supposed to be working with. The reason less Catholic RUC men were killed than Protestant members is because there was proportionally very few Catholics in that force.

It is also not a "vast majority" who do not consider the British Army and their cohorts occupiers, most nationalists were and are opposed to the police and British Army, and they form about 44% of the population of the Six Counties, besides most Irish people as a whole oppose them and that is the statistic that matters.

Regards occupation, I believe the entrance of a hostile foreign army into a country in which they are not welcome and the subsequent establishment of massive fortifications in places such as South Armagh and East Tyrone can fairly be described as an "occupation".

billy the squid

Regards occupation, I believe the entrance of a hostile foreign army into a country in which they are not welcome and the subsequent establishment of massive fortifications in places such as South Armagh and East Tyrone can fairly be described as an "occupation".

but the majority of the people in Northern Ireland would rather stay within the United Kingdom.

To be quite honest, the republic could not afford to be lumbered with Northern Ireland. I cannot see up pumping 10 billion every year into it. our own economy would collapse.

FTA69

What the majority of the Six County state says is irrelevant, before you say it billy this is not an undemocratic stance at all. The Six Counties form a minority of the Irish nation as a whole, and similar to the way we would not expect it to be reasonable for say, Cavan to decide to cecede from the country, neither is it reasonanle for a national minority to do the same.

Especially considering the Six County statelet was born out of an undemocratic redrawing of Ireland to accomodate a sectarian apartheid state.

billy the squid

What the majority of the Six County state says is irrelevant, before you say it billy this is not an undemocratic stance at all.

oh yes it is.

The Six Counties form a minority of the Irish nation as a whole,

as much as this might hurt you for me to say this, whether you like it or not, the territory of Northern Ireland is a part of what is known as the United Kingdom.

lets try this then

Quebec in canada has a large french speaking population who would like to become independent of Canada. whenever referenda have been held on the issue it was only Quebec who were allowed to decide on their fate, not the whole of Canada.

neither is it reasonanle for a national minority to do the same.

but the thing is the national minority is the catholic comunity, the country is the UK.

and if Cavan wants to Cecede from the country then the best of luck to them. Limerick did it in 1919.although there were those that didn't like it much

Especially considering the Six County statelet was born out of an undemocratic redrawing of Ireland to accomodate a sectarian apartheid state.

The territory of Northern Ireland was born out of the Treaty after the War of Independence, which the Dail Ratified. The war of independence is over, and we lost, get used to it. the only way that the north will ever be reunified with the south will be through a majority vote in the north.

MrPudding

FTA69 wrote:

It is also not a "vast majority" who do not consider the British Army and their cohorts occupiers, most nationalists were and are opposed to the police and British Army, and they form about 44% of the population of the Six Counties, besides most Irish people as a whole oppose them and that is the statistic that matters.

Can you provide a link to figures that show the majority of the 44% see the security forces as an occupying force? I know that noone in my family sees it as such. With the exception of 1 or 2 people noone that I grew up with did either. I know this is a small sample but I think you figures may very well be overstated.

You may think and hope that all the Catholics in the North feel the same way you do but that may not be the case. I personally have had nothing but possitive experience with the RUC. Of course there were some assholes in it but the vast majority seem to have been OK.

Have you lived in NI? Do you have any personal experience of the security forces in NI or do you only know of the Sinn Fein propaganda?

MrP[font=&quot][/font]

marco murphy

true wrote:

FTA69 wrote:

The crux of your statement there true, is that people were shot (regardless of religion) for being members of the RUC or UDR. Their religion was inconsequential and to prove this one only has to look at the number of Catholic members of the occupation forces who were killed by the IRA. Whether someone is a part time member of the police or UDR (both sectarian repressive organisations) is also irrelevant, the fact remains they were still members of an armed group and as such were legitimate targets.


Go to any of the border counties and you will see how the border has been rolled back 20 miles during the troubles. Many isolated farming families with part time or retired RUC or UDR members feel they were targeted. Especially the farms with only one son. The IRA knew what it was doing alright.

You say " you only have to look at the Catholic members of the occupation forces who were killed by the IRA ". Yes, but not the same numbers, and Catholic RUC were intimidated out of unsafe areas also.

The vast majority of the population do not see them as occupation forces, nor as sectarian repressive organisations. If they were , why did Catholics join them, know they could never safely return to friends and relations in Catholic areas again?

I could think of other sectarian repressive organisations which I will not mention.

Can you not forget phrases from the past like "occupation forces"? If you lived in a country that was really occupied, you would know all about it.

Fact is they are occupation forces.Theyv've been here 800 years odd now.
What else do you call em,santas helpers,angels from heaven...jeez :rolleyes:

oscarBravo

Poblachtach wrote:

Fact is they are occupation forces.They've been here 800 years odd now.

You've a funny concept of "fact".

oc·cu·pa·tion
n.
Invasion, conquest, and control of a nation or territory by foreign armed forces.

(Emphasis mine.) Northern Ireland is, by definition, part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The armed forces of the United Kingdom are ipso facto not foreign armed forces. They are not occupation forces. Northern Ireland is not occupied.

That's a fact.

daveirl

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mad_martian

Some of you guys are making excellent points on both sides - but you are forgetting the crux of the problem - its not terrorism, religion or nationalism or social issues that are the cause of the Irish "problem" - it is pure and simple politics i.e. each section of the community (be it nationalist, loyalist, criminal, protestant, catholic, chinese, lesbians, left handed people) wants its share of the power the same as any other country in the world nad will do mst anything to get it. A case in point is the fact that Dr Paisley and Mr Adams are "almost" singing from the same hymn sheet now, why? Because they have a real chance of getting power away from Dublin and London for ever. I bet that United Ireland or not these guys will be running the whole island eventually and then you will be sorry because leaving aside the bigotry and bile that you are getting all worked up about the actual honest to god policies of these parties SF and DUP are very similar in their outlook........the Troubles are over to a certain extent....its the peace I am worried about. The last time the lunatics where in charge of the asylum it didnt work out too good for the rest of us who just go about our daily lives trying to get a decent broadband connection......

arcadegame2004

Since Gandalf and MrPudding asked me to provide polling evidence I will now do so, the accommodating sort of person I am

Firstly, evidence that British people despise the Union with NI:

The Guardian, 21 August 2001 The poll was based on a random sample of 1,004 adults aged 18 and over, and was conducted by telephone interviews between 17-19 August 2001 across Britain. Of those questioned, 41% stated that they thought there should be a united Ireland. Only 26% felt that Northern Ireland should remain part of the United Kingdom. When questioned about who was to blame for the problems in the Northern Ireland peace process, 3% named unionists, 5% said republicans, whilst 64% blamed both sides equally.

http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2001

Secondly, evidence that a majority in Southern Ireland favour a United Ireland:

A 1999 survey found 86% of Irish voters still wanted to unite the island - despite a massive "Yes" vote in the May 1998 referendum approving the Good Friday agreement, which required the republic to renounce its constitutional claim on the north.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,2763,540092,00.html

Also, evidence of majority NI Catholic support for UI:

The Market Research Northern Ireland survey gave the following results: Do you want Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom?
YES: Protestants: 97%, Catholics: 33%

Do you want Northern Ireland to become part of the Republic of Ireland?
YES: Protestants: 2%, Catholics: 70%

The reason why the total Catholic figure adds up to 103% in this case is uncertain. It is probably due to people who wish to be part of the UK now, but would still like unification at some future poin

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/today/nationalism_unionism.html

Regarding the polls showing 98%-99% of their voters supporting a UI, I recall reading such polls in newspapers including one just after the 1998 GFA referendum, and when I locate it I will post the poll here.

Hobbes

Your first poll, it polled all of England. You would be suprised to know that a lot of British have no fricken clue what goes on in the North (as do some Irish people). The poll reads more like "Lets just get rid of the problem", not some kind of reward the republicans.

marco murphy

daveirl wrote:

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Your trailing off topic here.The british have stayed 800 years and are a tyrannical occupying force and should be moved out.

marco murphy

Hobbes wrote:

Your first poll, it polled all of England. You would be suprised to know that a lot of British have no fricken clue what goes on in the North (as do some Irish people). The poll reads more like "Lets just get rid of the problem", not some kind of reward the republicans.

Any proof to provide with this post?

MrPudding

Another problem is what Ionapaul pointed out. The the questions asked were simply do you want a UI. They did not ask "do you want a UI and the increase in income tax that will come with it?" for the people in the south. And it did not ask "do you want a UI with an increae in tax and a reduction in your standard of living as well?" for the people in the north.

I like the idea of a UI but I don't want one. I lived there for 28 years and I think it is a great part of the world with brilliant potential. The thing is a a southern blow in I don't want to pay for NI, I don't believe it would be self sustaining and I can't bring myself to believe that loyalist terrorist will sit idly by and allow it to happen peacefully. If I still lived in the north I would not want one either as I would not be prepared to take the inevitable drop in living conditions.

I really believe that were there a poll where it was pointed out the financial drawbacks plus the potential unrest that would result you may get a different result.

MrP

arcadegame2004

MrPudding wrote:

Another problem is what Ionapaul pointed out. The the questions asked were simply do you want a UI. They did not ask "do you want a UI and the increase in income tax that will come with it?" for the people in the south. And it did not ask "do you want a UI with an increae in tax and a reduction in your standard of living as well?" for the people in the north.

I like the idea of a UI but I don't want one. I lived there for 28 years and I think it is a great part of the world with brilliant potential. The thing is a a southern blow in I don't want to pay for NI, I don't believe it would be self sustaining and I can't bring myself to believe that loyalist terrorist will sit idly by and allow it to happen peacefully. If I still lived in the north I would not want one either as I would not be prepared to take the inevitable drop in living conditions.

I really believe that were there a poll where it was pointed out the financial drawbacks plus the potential unrest that would result you may get a different result.

MrP

Privatising the NI public-sector would dramatically cut the costs of incorporating NI into an All-Ireland economy, since this is where the vast bulk of UK Exchequer funding goes.

Unless you have a crystal ball you cannot know, nor do I, for certain whether higher taxes would be needed. Yet you use the word "inevitable".

Algeria is a good analogy. The French had to contend with 1 million ethnic French colonists determined to resist Algerian independence. They simply pulled out.