Penalty Points Process Clarity

ambro25

Granted, there has to be some safety-check.

But would you argue about Gardai stopping people to ensure they have a driving license, or insurance? Or that their car is actually road-worthy and not a danger to other road users? To me, random breathalyzing falls into the same category: that a driver is fit to drive and share the road with other at all times...

In this context, Terrorism (or any such extreme example used to justify the sometimes-excessive "civil liberties brigade") is totally different and -IMHO- inappropriate to this here debate.

No, I don't want to be strip-searched because I look lebanese -sorry I don't look "Irish" enough- to Gardai in the street, but I don't have a problem presenting my ID card (or having one, in this respect) or my driving license or my passport when requested to do so by authorities. There's the limit.

magpie

You make the 'civil liberties brigade' sound like the 'Brigade Rosse'!

I guess it comes down to personal choice: Would you rather live in an antiseptic police state where you incessantly have to tug your forelock, produce ID at random and undergo invasive personal testing "for the greater good", not to mention give up bad habits like smoking and drinking (don't worry, that's next!) OR would you be prepared to put up with a minisculely larger chance of not living to be 1000 in an oxygen tent and actually being treated like a responsible adult who can make their own decisions.

I'm moving to France.

Boggle

ambro25 wrote:

for it, sorry mate. If there's no randmoness about it, there's no incentive for people to stop drink-driving. I've lived in France and the UK long enough to see the (very) vast difference in attitude of the general public about this, and a very revealing snapshot is to be had when you consider the propensity of people to use taxis when they go out: can't find one in France except perhaps Paris, beat'em off with a stick anywhere in the UK.

In fairness to the french - when they decided to combat drink driving at least all the pubs and restaurants had the cop on to install breathaliser machines. Think they'd do that here?

seumus wrote:

I'd assume it would be unconstitutional to lock up someone who hadn't been convicted of a crime (or had a trial pending). Dunno though.

But shouldn't the same be said for all kinds of punishments for all kinds of crimes?

ambro25

magpie wrote:

I'm moving to France.

ROFL - HAHAHA! You don't want to do that if you don't like random breathalyzing, matey, trust me on that!

magpie wrote:

Would you rather live in an antiseptic police state where you incessantly have to tug your forelock (ambro25 says at that one), produce ID at random and undergo invasive personal testing "for the greater good", not to mention give up bad habits like smoking and drinking

Sounds like France and the UK alright, difference is in France people don't care (but by God do they get slapped if caught drink-driving!). However, as for the drinking & smoking thing, that'd be charity mocking the hospital, granted.

TBH, I'd like something in-between, really .
Somewhere where people have a good craic when they so choose, but don't wake my baby girl up at 2.00AM becuase they're sh1t-faced and don't know where they are, and instead get in a taxi.
Somewhere where people take pride in their wheels and the manner in which they use them, maintain and clean them with utmost zeal and care, and take the same attitude to the wheels of other when they're both on- and off-the road themselves.
Somewhere where little p1ssants tremble at the thought of the Gardai bobby wlaking along his/her beat catching them doing anything wrong and show respect for their elders and anybody else's property.
Somewhere where everybody's liberty is granted from birth but stops where that of others begin, and where everybody's respectful of the Law without having to be fearful of it.
Need I go on...?

Bogger77

Slight clarification:
When people in ireland refer to radom breath testing, it doesn't exist. The road check points are set up under the guise of checking road tax and insurance. If the garda is of the opinion that you are drink/in excess of limits from your actions/oudor when they talk to you, they then ask you to do a breath test.

Real random testing would be stopping cars and asking the driver to blow into the testing equipment, that doesn't happen here in ireland.

To be honest, I'm all for totally random checks, since I'm a tee totaller, I have nothing to fear for it I always have a chat and a wee joke etc with the cops when I get stopped, my car always has current tax disc and insurance. I do most of my driving at nite, and so having a wee chat with real person at 3am is a hell of a lot more interesting than listening to late nite radio.

magpie

Somewhere where people take pride in their wheels and the manner in which they use them, maintain and clean them with utmost zeal and care, and take the same attitude to the wheels of other when they're both on- and off-the road themselves.

Welcome to Ireland, where all cars look like 'Gypsy Cabs' from the Royal Tennenbaums...

I admire your utopian aspirations by the way, wouldn't it be nice if it was like that? Maybe I'll move to Canada instead...

stopping cars and asking the driver to blow into the testing equipment

Now why does that remind me of 'Bad Lieutenant'?

I guess I'm just wary of giving further powers to any group of people whose educational requirements are 3 passes in the leaving cert.

seamus

If 5 minutes of my time to give a random breath test helps cut down on deaths on the road, I'm happy to do it. That's all there is.

There's a point where you have to stop being completely selfish about civil liberties. It's about the same point that you start wearing tinfoil hats magpie.

magpie

If 5 minutes of my time to give a random breath test helps cut down on deaths on the road, I'm happy to do it. That's all there is.

There's a point where you have to stop being completely selfish about civil liberties. It's about the same point that you start wearing tinfoil hats magpie

And yet oddly you are completely opposed to introducing Daytime Running Lights for all vehicles (which has been shown beyond all doubt to save lives) as you feel it would make you on your motorbike with the lights on stand out less.

How about if the government banned all 2 wheel vehicles based on their frankly appalling safety record and the statistics that show that motorcycle drivers are far more likely to be involved in accidents caused by drink/drugs than any other road user?

I'm sure you would give up your bike for the common good.

Seth Brundle

magpie wrote:

How about if the government banned all 2 wheel vehicles based on their frankly appalling safety record and the statistics that show that motorcycle drivers are far more likely to be involved in accidents caused by drink/drugs than any other road user?

Without having any stats behind me I would have presumed that the majority of accidents involving motorbikes were in fact caused by cars

seamus

magpie wrote:

And yet oddly you are completely opposed to introducing Daytime Running Lights for all vehicles (which has been shown beyond all doubt to save lives) as you feel it would make you on your motorbike with the lights on stand out less.

I never said I was completely opposed to DRLs.

How about if the government banned all 2 wheel vehicles based on their frankly appalling safety record and the statistics that show that motorcycle drivers are far more likely to be involved in accidents caused by drink/drugs than any other road user?

The statistics in fact don't show that at all. You can refer back to the other thread if you like, but I think you'll find that the proportional number of *accidents* occuring due to driver intoxication are pretty much the same across the board.

By your same logic, since cars are the single biggest cause of death for all young people, and all car drivers, cyclists and pedestrians, I'm sure you'd be equally delighted to ditch your car for the common good.

Let's not get so far up our own arses we can see our tongues, hmmm?

magpie

I'm sure you'd be equally delighted to ditch your car for the common good.

That may well be happening if I can't figure out where the poxy speed camera on the N7 is

Our man in Havana

magpie wrote:

That may well be happening if I can't figure out where the poxy speed camera on the N7 is

What was the address given for the offence that you got?

magpie

N7 Naas Road, Dublin 12

Our man in Havana

magpie wrote:

N7 Naas Road, Dublin 12

Odds on that it was a white transit parked outside Joel's Between Newlands Cross and The Red Cow.

unkel

magpie wrote:

Now why does that remind me of 'Bad Lieutenant'?

ROFLAO

Saw that about 10 years ago. You just made me remember

magpie

I was heading in the other direction though

Our man in Havana

magpie wrote:

I was heading in the other direction though

Excat same location but on southbound side of N7 so. They are always there:(

Boggle

Magpie, how long after the speeding "incident" did you get your ticket in the post? The reason I ask is if its too long ago, and especially when they tell you "it was on the N7 ... somewhere" how are you supposed to remember the incident. Doesn't this impair your ability to prepare a defence? (In the interests of justice, I would have thought that this could be decent enough grounds for a dismissal if argued well enough)

At least at the side of the road you know you are caught at the time (cos the gard pulls you over)...

magpie

The Crime was perpetrated on 25 November, I got the ticket on 24 December.

Bond: duly noted and thanks for the info. I shall tootle along at 28 until well past this point!

On a related point, do they usually focus their beady eye on the fast lane, or are you just as likely to get ticketed in the left lane? Reason I ask is I've noticed people have started using the overtaking lane as an actual overtaking lane recently (rather than just sitting in it doing 70), so I wonder if this is the reason for this inexplicable outbreak of good driving?

Seth Brundle

I recieved another reply (previous reply here) from the original person who recieved my mail (before they forwarded it on elsewhere):-

The Road Traffic Acts provide that following detection of an alleged speeding offence by a speed camera a fixed charge notice is issued by the Garda Síochána to the registered owner of the vehicle concerned (there is no statutory time limit on the issuing of a Fixed Charge Notice). This notice conveys details of the alleged commission of the offence by the driving of that vehicle and indicates that no prosecution will be initiated if the driver pays a fixed charge of €80 within a 28 period or €120 between day 28 and day 56 of the date of the notice and accept that 2 penalty points will be endorsed on their driving licence record (The making of such a payment is in effect a statement by the payee that he or she will not contest the accusation made in the notice, thus ensuring that the matter will not proceed to a hearing before a court). If no payment is made within the 56 days, the Garda Síochána will then assume that the driver is taking the matter to court and will proceed to issue the driver with a court summons. This summons must be served to the driver within a period of 6 months from the date of the commission of the alleged offence.

The average period between receipt of such notifications by the company that is engaged to process this data for my Department and the subsequent issue of a notification to a person of the date on which penalty points will be entered on their licence record is 10 days.

Insurance companies have no access to the National Driver File at present.

Regards,
nnnn
Road Safety and Traffic Division
Department of Transport
3/2/05

Our man in Havana

That is a right load of horse sh*t tbh.

(there is no statutory time limit on the issuing of a Fixed Charge Notice).

Surely this is unconstitutional, quick and speedy trial etc. Up north they have only 14 days to serve the notice otherwise its time expired.

If no payment is made within the 56 days, the Garda Síochána will then assume that the driver is taking the matter to court and will proceed to issue the driver with a court summons.

Surely they mean the registered owner because how can they tell it is the actual driver if no form is received back from the addresse.

This summons must be served to the driver within a period of 6 months from the date of the commission of the alleged offence.

Wrong again. They must get the summons within 6 months but they can leave it in a drawer for several months (I kid you not). They only need to serve it by registered post 21 days before the court or if served by a garda in person on the accused within 7 days of the court.

The average period between receipt of such notifications by the company that is engaged to process this data for my Department and the subsequent issue of a notification to a person of the date on which penalty points will be entered on their licence record is 10 days.

So they are outsourcing already? Surely illeagal well dodgy.

Insurance companies have no access to the National Driver File at present.

What about Hiberian insurance, they won't even quote you without a licence number.

stratos

people have said this already but here goes again, you have no points untill you go to court, or admit the ticket and pay. So if you got the pretty pic of your car in the post your o.k. for now. Hibernian have access to the database providing you sign a release (freedom of info act). Either way you only lose out on 10 per cent discount if you don't. If you have point's and don't tell them, and you need to claim your liable for 2500 of the claim. I have got my grainy picture in the mail, I intend to go to court, I'll let ye know happens.