Quickie re Penalty Points

JohnCleary

Just a quick question regarding penalty points....
Managed to get myself a speeding fine for doing 65 in a 60 zone. Obviously I tried pleading with the Guard, he just wasnt interested.

I paid the fine today (for the sake of an easy life).
OK so heres the thing..
1) Am I 100% guaranteed to get 2 points on my license?
2) How long do points stay on your license for?
3) Im on a provisional, but have my test coming up soon... If I get my full license, will the points be carried over?

Now I know I can appeal or whatever because I was given no print out, etc. blah blah spam rant.... But I just cant be bothered

Thanks for any advise

Seth Brundle

You accepted 65 in a 60? You aren't willing to question the fact that he acted illegally by giving you a punishment with no proof of a crime.
I have to say that yes, you will get points which will haunt you for at least* the next 3 years and you deserve them!

* you are aware of the pending points and therefore must declare them when looking for insurance and asked. However, I bleieve that you may not actually recieve them for two years.

unkel

JohnCleary wrote:

Now I know I can appeal or whatever because I was given no print out

I think that loop has just been closed. Don't appeal, it will only double your points to 4

Answers to your questions:

1. Pretty much. It might get lost somewhere in the process, but don't count on it
2. As kbannon said: 3 years from when they hit your license. This could be some time after the speeding happened
3. Yes

Tommy Vercetti

kbannon wrote:

* you are aware of the pending points and therefore must declare them when looking for insurance and asked. However, I bleieve that you may not actually recieve them for two years.

Pending points aren't really points since the three year thing only comes into effect when they are added to your license, not when you were allegedly speeding, therefore if your insurance is due for renewal in the interim, you do not have to declare anything.

trotter_inc

Tommy Vercetti wrote:

Pending points aren't really points since the three year thing only comes into effect when they are added to your license

How do you know when they've been put onto your licence?

I moved up from Limerick to Dublin about 5 months ago. The address on my licence is still my Limerick address (have sent in the form to get a new one with my Dublin address) and Im afraid in the mean time Ive picked up points from one of those mounted speed cameras without actually knowing it!

alias no.9

trotter_inc wrote:

I moved up from Limerick to Dublin about 5 months ago. The address on my licence is still my Limerick address (have sent in the form to get a new one with my Dublin address) and Im afraid in the mean time Ive picked up points from one of those mounted speed cameras without actually knowing it!

The summons goes to the address at which the car is registered. They don't know the address on your license until you tell them.

trotter_inc

alias no.9 wrote:

The summons goes to the address at which the car is registered. They don't know the address on your license until you tell them.

Ah ok - I changed this about a month ago - would they have told me if Ive got penalty points when changing this address?

lomb

65 in a 60 for f%$k sakes. theres something wrong there. i thought they allow u 10% +3mph as leeway?

DirtyDog

kbannon wrote:

I have to say that yes, you will get points which will haunt you for at least* the next 3 years and you deserve them!

A little harsh dont you think?

trotter_inc

DirtyDog wrote:

A little harsh dont you think?

I agree - I often might hit 65 in a 60 zone without even realising it! I thought you'd get away with this anyway.

BrianD

65 in a 60 for f%$k sakes. theres something wrong there. i thought they allow u 10% +3mph as leeway?

Of course not! That's 68mph almost 70! However, I believe that the fixed speed cameras have a 10% threshold (possibly so that they don't run out of film and can catch the real speeders).

If you're caught doing 62 in a 60 then you might have grounds for complaint. If you're doing 65 you're fair game.

unkel

BrianD wrote:

If you're caught doing 62 in a 60 then you might have grounds for complaint. If you're doing 65 you're fair game.

Why?

Afaik there is very little leeway apart from equipment margin of error in Ireland. I feel there should be a lot more leeway though, to prevent road users from concentrating on their speedo all the time

BrianD

If you are unable to drive at a set speed without constantly watching your speedo you should not be behind the wheel. Deviating by 2-3 mph up or down is acceptable 5 or more is not. You don't have to watch your speedo all the time you just check it routinely as you would check your mirrors.

What do you mean by a lot more leeway?

Our man in Havana

I think that loop has just been closed. Don't appeal, it will only double your points to 4

The loophole is yet to be closed. Could take another 6-8 months to close. There was another load of no printout cases thrown out in the west recently.

Anyways since you paid up (sap!) you have forfeited all rights to appeal. You should have held onto your money and fought the summons when it arrived.

Seth Brundle

DirtyDog wrote:

A little harsh dont you think?

Not really - I would contest an unfair and illegal punishment like that. If JohnCleary is happy enough to accept being punished for this by both the state and his insurance company (surely he is paying enough to them already) then thats fine and as I said he deserves the extra cost but I would not be happy!
I doubt there is anyone out there who has never stepped over the speed limit (including BrianD!) and they shouldn't be crucified for it!

Seth Brundle

Also read http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/motoring/2004/1215/3012312339MOT15LEAD.html
It reports on how a Judge dismissed a number of speeding cases because the non-issuing of printed evidence is illegal.
However, the local constabulary shall remain defiant and continue to use illegal practices!

ambro25

BrianD wrote:

Deviating by 2-3 mph up or down is acceptable, 5 or more is not.

Cyborg!

BrianD wrote:

You don't have to watch your speedo all the time you just check it routinely as you would check your mirrors.

Not an argument that would hold much water in court, I concede, but it depends on what you drive:

if I drive my MX-5 (1.8, 130 bhp), it's very easy for the speedo to jump by 5 mph in-between two 'glances', as the gears are very low-staged (40mph = 1900/2000 rpm in 4th) but it's quite torquey - tbh, I struggle to drive at 30 mph (but make a concerted effort to), since it's a really awkward speed for striking an ideal gear/rpm combination (3rd feels too high @ 2,500/2,700 at 30). 40 would be ideal. But then signs says 30, soo

likewise (and comparatively), when I was driving my dad's C5 in France at Xmas, I just couldn't believe what speed the speedo said I was doing: 60 mph, it felt like 40 mph... Big car, comfy, silent - less 'sensory input' so harder to 'drive by ear/seat' (and more-or-less 'instinctively' know if you're within the 2/3mph or over).

JohnCleary

Oh my god im kicking myself.. but not really.

Reason I payed up was because im on my provisional, I wasnt displaying L Plates (Not my car, rarely drive it) and I wasnt in the car with a qualified driver.

I challenged the Garda on scene to 'show me proof' that I was speeding. He turned around and said "I'm not going to lie if this goes to court, you were speeding. Also, if this goes to court youll get a summons for driving with no L Plates and no qualified driver"

I think I was better off paying the fine... Can't be arsed about insurance its only an extra few quid on my insurance next year

Seth Brundle

Fair enough - you were damned either way.

Bogger77

JohnCleary wrote:

Oh my god im kicking myself.. but not really.

Reason I payed up was because im on my provisional, I wasnt displaying L Plates (Not my car, rarely drive it) and I wasnt in the car with a qualified driver.

I challenged the Garda on scene to 'show me proof' that I was speeding. He turned around and said "I'm not going to lie if this goes to court, you were speeding. Also, if this goes to court youll get a summons for driving with no L Plates and no qualified driver"

I think I was better off paying the fine... Can't be arsed about insurance its only an extra few quid on my insurance next year

So basically, you was out bombing along without a qualified driver and no L plates? Be glad you got let off with just 2 points and a small fine, that offence would get ya up into court for a nice fine and possible suspension of your license on it's own, if the judge decided. Add in the challenging your fine in relation to that, you'd be lucky not to get an endorsed license as well as 4 points and a nice big fine.

Bogger77

OT:
Doesn't no L plates or R plates up north == instant loss of license

Also, restricted speeds for learners and newly qualified drivers (first 6 months) , bout time they were introduced down here.

BrianD3

Getting points for doing 65 in a 60 does seem a bit harsh. However when you consider that JohnCleary's speedo was probably showing around 70-72 mph (as the vast majority of speedos overread by at least 5 mph at this speed) it seems less harsh.

BrianD3

MrPudding

Bogger77 wrote:

OT:
Doesn't no L plates or R plates up north == instant loss of license

Also, restricted speeds for learners and newly qualified drivers (first 6 months) , bout time they were introduced down here.

It depends. Driving without R plates would usually earn you an extended restricted period for a first offense, the same I think for no L plates, both with a fine. A learner being unaccompanied would result in a ban from driving and a fine.

MrP

JohnCleary

BrianD3 wrote:

Getting points for doing 65 in a 60 does seem a bit harsh. However when you consider that JohnCleary's speedo was probably showing around 70-72 mph (as the vast majority of speedos overread by at least 5 mph at this speed) it seems less harsh.

BrianD3

My cars Speedo is spot on, it was dyno'ed not so long ago, when its new wheels were put on

Bogger77

My car's speedo is out by 5mph at 62mph, and by 6mph at 70mph.
Thats checking using GPS and a few radar traps.

all analogue speedo's are out by a small percent, my trip computer is much more accurate for speed (average speed etc) than my Dial speedo.

to show up as doing 65 on garda radar, I'd have to be showing 73-75 mph on my analogue speedo.

Bogger77

JohnCleary wrote:

My cars Speedo is spot on, it was dyno'ed not so long ago, when its new wheels were put on

just noticed this, so your car has been modified?

Provisonal Driver, no L plates, no Qualified driver, 8% over speed limit, in a modified car. If you arrived before the local judge in my area (tullamore circuit) you'd end up with a massive fine, 4 points, probably suspended. And you'd be asked to show your car, to a Garda Motor inspector, minus any window tinting, etc. The last guy he sentanced to this, had sold the car on, so he had to re-purchase the car, and replace all the windows, suitable sentence if you ask me.
edit guy had been caught doing over 80mph in a 60zone

Seth Brundle

Dynoing a car says sweet fupp all about the speedo accuracy.
Speedos are never 100% and as far as I know some manufacturers allow tolerances of up to 10% (usually showing you a higher speed than you are actually doing). Furthermore, as your tyres wear your speedo gives a higher reading. I assume you also did the maths to check if your wider/taller/whatever tyres give the same rolling radius as standard tyres.
The speed is usually measured at the gearbox so I presume that any traction loss (possibly negligible) also affects accuracy.

BrianD

Interesting, I had heard that most speedos overstate the speed i.e. all things being equal you are actually travelling slower than the speedo indicates.

I recall while in Australia there is a m-way outside Sydney with a big gantry mounted LED display that shows your speed. The idea is that you can check your speedo. The thing doesn't display over 117KMH to prevent the local boy racers outdoing each other.

Would the wear and tear on your tyres - a few mm - dramatically alter your speed???

Tommy Vercetti

Nice to see that we are all trusting the Gardai to be using 100% accurate equipment in their pursuit of road safety

unkel

kbannon wrote:

Speedos are never 100% and as far as I know some manufacturers allow tolerances of up to 10% (usually showing you a higher speed than you are actually doing). Furthermore, as your tyres wear your speedo gives a higher reading. I assume you also did the maths to check if your wider/taller/whatever tyres give the same rolling radius as standard tyres

Spot on.

Reporting results of testing the callibration of speedos should be part of car reviews!

BrianD wrote:

Interesting, I had heard that most speedos overstate the speed i.e. all things being equal you are actually travelling slower than the speedo indicates

Yep, see what kbannon said

Tommy Vercetti

unkel wrote:

Spot on.
Reporting results of testing the callibration of speedos should be part of car reviews!

Either Car or Autocar used to do that, I haven't seen it around for a while now.