New German toll system seems to be working

Zaph0d

Germany's truck tolling system has gone live since January 1st, more than a year late. It's expected to raise €2.4b/year by charging trucks from 12c/km.

If it really works, I guess it will become the model for non-stop tolling systems in other countries, including Ireland.

I think it works with a GPS unit that reports location data by SMS.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000100&sid=aOGJrLUWGiR0&refer=germany

seamus

Well, if introduced, it would certainly start making wholesalers cop on about how they distribute their goods. Lorries and especially artics do not belong in the city centre, so if it starts working out cheaper to deliver to depots with trucks, then use vans to deliver locally, then it's win-win.

Alun

But wasn't the German system designed primarily for charging foreign trucks who merely pass through Germany on the way to somewhere else, much like the Austrians do already with a somewhat lower-tech system?

It was never meant as a general purpose tolling system, and has been plagued with technical, financial and political problems since it was first started to be developed. It remains to be seen whether it continues to be trouble free, and if the Germans can't manage to implement a system like this, what chance do we have?

Zaph0d

Alun wrote:

But wasn't the German system designed primarily for charging foreign trucks who merely pass through Germany on the way to somewhere else, much like the Austrians do already with a somewhat lower-tech system?

No, two thirds of trucks being tolled are German. source

It was never meant as a general purpose tolling system, and has been plagued with technical, financial and political problems since it was first started to be developed. It remains to be seen whether it continues to be trouble free, and if the Germans can't manage to implement a system like this, what chance do we have?

Yes, only time will tell whether it works. I see no reason why it could not be extended from trucks to cars. Do you?

Alun

Zaph0d wrote:

No, two thirds of trucks being tolled are German. source

Yes, only time will tell whether it works. I see no reason why it could not be extended from trucks to cars. Do you?

Oops, I was convinced it was only for foreign trucks.

As far as extending it to cars, I suppose that it would be technically feasible, although whether it would be practical would probably depend on the cost of the on-board units and whether the system could cope with the amount of traffic if every road user and not just trucks were equipped with them. I'd be concerned about privacy issues too.

Zaph0d

Alun wrote:

As far as extending it to cars, I suppose that it would be technically feasible, although whether it would be practical would probably depend on the cost of the on-board units and whether the system could cope with the amount of traffic if every road user and not just trucks were equipped with them.

I'd guess the first car users of this system would be people voluntarily installing the units to avoid queues at toll booths and low-mileage drivers willing to trade their location privacy for reduced insurance costs. As for the practicality of a system large enough to cope with the data, mobile phone companies cope with far larger quantities of data already.

I'd be concerned about privacy issues too.

Me too. Does it concern you that Vodafone and O2 keeps records of nearly everyone's approximate location in the country at all times?

Alun

Zaph0d wrote:

Me too. Does it concern you that Vodafone and O2 keeps records of nearly everyone's approximate location in the country at all times?

Not really, as my mobile spends 99.9999% of it's time switched off

Victor

seamus wrote:

Well, if introduced, it would certainly start making wholesalers cop on about how they distribute their goods. Lorries and especially artics do not belong in the city centre, so if it starts working out cheaper to deliver to depots with trucks, then use vans to deliver locally, then it's win-win.

It's a dilemmma, one supercube probably can handle the equivalent of 20+ Ford Transits, so does one deal with a few very large trucks or a multitude of smaller ones (remembering what white van drivers are like ).

The real problem with regard to city centres especially is the huge number of deliveries each van does per trip (one for bread, one for milk, one for sandwiches, one for other dairy goods, one for meat, one for vegetables .....)

Alun wrote:

But wasn't the German system designed primarily for charging foreign trucks who merely pass through Germany on the way to somewhere else

The idea is to redress the balance. British and French trucks in Germany weren't paying and road charges / taxes (other than fuel taxes). In France, all trucks were paying tolls. In the UK, only British trucks were paying road tax and so on.

mackerski

Zaph0d wrote:

If it really works, I guess it will become the model for non-stop tolling systems in other countries, including Ireland.

It didn't half cause traffic jams at the German-Austria border last weekend. Basically, any truck driver without the gadgetry had to pull in and buy (I think) a vignette quite like the ones the Austrians use.

They also ended the prohibition on weekend truck driving last weekend, so you can imagine how much fun the traffic was...

Dermot

Tenshot

Some more info on the German system here...

One good point made was that if every country follows suit, international trucks could end up with a ridiculous number of automated tolling systems onboard.

Zaph0d

Tenshot wrote:

Some more info on the German system here...

One good point made was that if every country follows suit, international trucks could end up with a ridiculous number of automated tolling systems onboard.

Would any country risk going through Germany's politically embarrassing delays by trying to reinvent this system from scratch? It would seem more likely that the German system could be extended to other countries, with the appropriate tolls forwarded to each country that signs up. In exchange the other countries could pay a royalty fee. Austria may sign up first- given past form.

Silvera

sounds like a good system.......in theory !

Zaph0d

so far, so good:

1.4 billion euros in revenue during the first six months of operation

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000100&sid=aaMNgtn4LgSA&refer=germany

strassenwolf

Zaph0d wrote:

Would any country risk going through Germany's politically embarrassing delays by trying to reinvent this system from scratch?

Shhh. There may be people from the NRA watching this board.

DubTony

Victor wrote:

The real problem with regard to city centres especially is the huge number of deliveries each van does per trip (one for bread, one for milk, one for sandwiches, one for other dairy goods, one for meat, one for vegetables .....)

Musgrave addressed this issue by having their trucks pick up from suppliers depots, unloading at their own depot in Fonthill (Dairy, Meat, Fruit and veg) and their depot in Cork for almost everything else. (These depots don't handle milk and bread). However, since June the Cork depot has been replaced (for Dublin and the east) by a new one in Kilcock. Each Centra store used to receive 4 deliveries a week from Musgrave, 3 chill, and one for other stuff. Now though, they receive a minimum of 6. And all six are delivered by a truck pulling a trailer. Milk, bread newspapers etc. are still delivered in the same manner, i.e. by the supplier.

Oh, wait. This had nothing to do with addressing the issue of traffic and deliveries. It was to do with squeezing more discount from suppliers. Forget I mentioned it. :rolleyes:

mackerski

The German system - and Austria is now using a near-identical system for all larger vehicles incuding cars with trailers - is only deployed on the Autobahn network, and detects passing vehicles by means of gantry-mounted sensors. I'm not sure if the references to delivery vehicles in the city-centre intended to suggest that this technology would be applicable to urban environments, but it doesn't seem an obvious fit to me.

Dermot