Year round CTYI?

Aoibheann

Matthew, calm down. It's easy to know who this person is, but I'm saying nothing. He knows Duane longer than I do, so I can't be the judge of what he does and doesn't know about him, but he knows more than I do.

I've talked to Duane about this all year round ctyi already, and I do think he's being a bit elitist about it.(understatement of the year). And I've told him this already, so it's not as if he's reading anything new.

Vordaci

Thank u for ur defence Aoibh, but i admit i went overbord.

And Matthew, i took me a long while to realise who u r. And i must say that im very hurt that u cant even remember a fellow classmate.
Trust u to laugh at ur own joke. (Shakes head.)

It is i, Daniel. And who r u to call me or any of my actions corwardly. I take pride in my ability to b forward. Thanks to you first thing Monday morning i shall insult Duane face to face.
Also i wudnt go on much about "logical" thinking on ur part. I can remember some of "logical" conclusions frm lst summers programme. And they were quite literally (adjective too crude, even for my liking).

Rezmuter Duane

Thanks for that very generous defence, to be confirmed.

Now to deal with this attack factually:
1: Noting that I am not a tyrannical dictator as the word dictator implies that I rule something.
2: I most certainly have an interest in history, ALL history as I feel that from looking at past mistakes one can learn and not repeat those same mistakes in the future.
3: My beliefs are NOT that only the more intelligent should get a better education. I actually believe in allowing each student to get the best education possible, however I feel that separating people of different abilities is essential to create this. In a nutshell, this is how the separation should be done:
a) Firstly, the students who want to learn shall be separated from those who don't. Those who don't shall be placed in the equivalent of a prison cell for the duration of school
b) Then we allow the students who wish to learn to choose what they are best at, be it skills, creativity or academics.
c) Each of these groups will have a school system catered to allow them to develop to the best of their potential.
d) Within this system, in each category there shall be five subcategories which shall allow for ability (Levels would be: 1: Outstandingly Gifted, 2: Gifted, 3: Proficent, 4: Weak, 5: Extremely Challenged) and shall allow for different ways to teach each category. Within the current system, we already recognise that people of different abilities learn in different ways in so far as we have remedial classes which teach weak students differently. What some fail to realise, and perceive to be elitism is that gifted students, and normal students learn differently as well. Whether it simply is the pace of the class or through different teaching methods, it is vital, to achieve the best from all students that they are taught in the correct fashion.
e) It goes without saying that there will be NO discrimination over what teachers the categories get. ALL categories and subcategories will be financed fairly and will receive no special extra financing.
f) There shall be different qualifications from each of the categories, not only focusing on examinations but on continuous assessment. These qualifications will prepare the students to qualify in a field which they are most suited to and will allow them to hone their best skills to enable them to provide for their families throughout life.
g) As the state education system, this shall be provided free to all, with absolutely NO consideration as to the social status of students (Private Schools will be reigned in too).
h) As an addition to the above, through the NEA (National Employment Agency) all job applications will be considered under merit only, allowing us to destroy the Irish culture of "It's not what you know, but who you know." and the other one, "Money talks."
4: As stated above, all of this shall be state financed.

As to his snide comment at the end, and I quote "(Apologies to anyone to whom this may cause offence.)", how can you write what he just did without intending to cause offence??? I believe that this is total ignorance, insulting and downright despicable. Maybe a ban is in order, I certainly found it vile and disgusting. Also, I find it in breach of the NO FLAMING rule. Also noting that on his most recent post he deigned to show his true sleight of hand, "first thing Monday morning i shall insult Duane face to face". Someone tell me he isn't flaming!!!

Back to the topic of year round CTYI, here is a little idea. How about a year round drop in campus where people can go when they want, and can arrange with others, much like reunions, when all would go. Also, one could maintain a year round education for those who wished to attend and could still provide the summer courses as per usual. Ignore financial implications as I believe there are ways to get the necessary finance. As to curriculums, in the changes outlined in my previous post, a series of different curriculums would be provided to allow for the faster pace of classes.

Rezmuter Duane

Just one thing about being elitist, I do not believe that I am and I ask anyone who accuses me of being such to cite examples, as allegations without proof merely cast dispersions and shroud lies!

Undergod

Fight to the death! Fight to the death! Fight to the death!

Spraypaint

:mad: Now to dismantle Duane's ultra-long post:
Point 1:
Amen and Thank God you don't and never will.
Point 3(a):
You Cannot Be Serious! Now that is tyranny, overboard, extreme and frankly scary. Don't be surprised if you find yourself in a similar(possibly padded) cell in the not too distant future.
Next point 3(b):
When do they choose that?Likewise when are the wheat and the chaf seperated and how and when is it determined who constitutes what? How do you determine which young child is gifted as opposed to any other and thus seperate them into streams? Gifted students inspire each other and push each other forward. Lazy ones hold each other back. Thus the genii excel at a rapid rate and the dunces accomplish nothing.
Point 3(c):
If everyone develops to their best potential then wouldn't there be an over-abundance of rocket scientists and quantum physicians and a serious dearth of farmers to grow the food we need to eat and survive and tradespeople to build the world around us.
Point 3(d):
This would be impossible without exorbident taxes and/or slave teachers.
Point 3(e):
Certain areas may require more funding than others. The price of books for academics is different to the price of materials for trade students. Anyway your system is so fundimentally flawed that such a system would never arise.
Point 3(f)
This wouldn't work for much the same reason as 3(c). Likewise people may not want to do exactly what they are best at. According to my career guidance teacher I'd make a good accountant but I'd rather be something completely different to be honest.
Generally:
Your system allows for little interaction between groups so it forms a kind of intellectual Berlin Wall. Very few of my friends can compete with me academically but I still enjoy their company in school.
Also the implementation of your system would require such a radical overall of the current system that it would cost so much and be such a logistical nightmare that it will never be more than a deluded dream.

I'm not trying to say the current system is perfect, in fact I'm totally disillusioned by it and don't like it AT ALL but at least it isn't tyrannical and it does some sort of a good job. AND there's always CTYI.

Spraypaint

Don't you just love having half-days from school so you can kill time going on long rants on the internet?

StupidLikeAFox

is anyone actually reading these things?

Raphael

Nope. I stopped when they got long and unamusing.

J Campion

Raphael wrote:

Nope. I stopped when they got long and unamusing.

DITTO. But I suppose a forum for a "Centre" for "intelligent kids" is bound to get serious and boring every now and then (No offence meant to anyone). Most of the people here are probably more used to thinking in terms of theses rather than paragraphs by now! :rolleyes:

It wasn't me!

Speak for yourself!

StupidLikeAFox

J Campion wrote:

Most of the people here are probably more used to thinking in terms of theses rather than paragraphs by now! :rolleyes:

Yeah, i got a kick in the theses today and theyre ****in killing me!

It wasn't me!

pinkpimp

As the apparant only one to have read both paragraphs, I'd like to comment.

Rezmuter Duane (Like the name by the way), I like your system. It is fundamentally flawed, but I like it. Not sure about the plan for the ones unwilling to learn. Seems a bit harsh, although I do understand that they need to be kept seperate, and this option can't be appealing or the entire system would go down the pan. Perhaps they could go to work at some stage, thus solving spraypaints problem of lack of people to do the manual labour.

My next point is that the system could only really work if it took place after some sort of basic education and/or maturity. The decision of wheather you want to work or not can only take place if the person deciding is mature. Unfortunately, some people are intelligent and stay very immature for a long time, so theres your main problem.

I think the system would work, but not from the stage that this country is at at the moment. You'd have to start from scratch, and money would be a huge problem. If money wasn't an object, then you've not really got any huge problem. It would work in a fascist state. (not calling you a fascist)

lucernarian

Hello every1,
I think Duane's idea is pretty good and while some may find this suprising, I also agree with what some of what Daniel is saying. As duane can put me on record as saying, I thought that being in a mixed ability class was beneficial in some regards. You would know what people from various intellectual backgrounds would be like and being in a mixed classes would develop social skills for the whole class. The whole class would get to know each other and would appreciate the differences everyone had (to some extent). Seperating classes could harbour attitudes of distrust and superiority or jealousy. As I said to Duane, his system would be very, very good from an educational point of view but far less good from a social point of view. Pinkpimp summed up the idea well by saying

It is fundamentally flawed, but I like it.

It would indeed work in a fascist state, but its only fair to say that it would work under other systems of government (probably undemocratic).

As for the above argument, I will only say this: it is a shame to see people whom I thought were friends arguing. I'll certainly admit to being over-reactionary and hot-headed at the time though I still feel that calling Duane all those names and stuff was very nasty. Daniel, I'm suprised that you acted in the way you did. One other thing, i said lol to show i wasnt being serious, not that I was laughing.
Hoping this helps

Stephen Forde

Duane
How is locking up people who are the best of the best in cells excelling them onwards?
You said you wanted to make the people proficient in their superior fields? This contradicts this!




And also is theses a misspell and is supposed to be "thesis" by any chance.
(Just wondering i dont need to be slated over it)

Aoibheann

wait, if it's fundamentally flawed, then how can it work? surely that makes it impossible? if all the basics are flawed, what is there left to work with? Everything will have to start over again, and it'll still be flawed.

I dont like the idea of year round CTYI for the reason of the elitism quite clearly shown. I don't like the systems of education proposed. Also it'll end up just like regular school which would totally suck.

jono087

if its fundementally flawed then it can't work..... that's what the phrase means.....

and i don't think year-round ctyi is a good idea, it is bound to create a very prejudicial and sectarian society. And considering we're the top x% intelligent people in the country (apparently) then that leaves us very much outnumbered by predjudicial and sectarian "peers"..... doesn't sound like much fun to me,,,.......,,,

Aoibheann

exactly. it won't work, fundamentally flawed as they say.
Like I said, it's not possible that it would work. Though some people seem to think it can.

agreed on the second part aswell.

jono087

ya, that would be decidedly dangerous/uncharicteristically stupid

Aoibheann

wondering why this topic is even being discussed. I mean, it's not as if we can actually do all that much about it, even if we did want CTYI all year round(which I for one don't). Also, I'm pretty sure this topic has been on boards before last year and the year before and the year before and so on. Just a wild guess, but I don't think I'm too far wrong. It's been discussed before, and quite frankly, it's getting boring. But fair enough, if some people want this school and to be elitists for the rest of their lives then they should do something about it(though nothing can be done, so meh). It's pointless. Actions speak a hell of a lot louder than words, people.

jono087

yep..... tbh whats the point in being "elite in school"? you're better off not hiding behind the pretence of being "smarter than everyone".... you might be more intelligent than most, but that won't make you wealthy or happy (which are by the way totally unrelated) when you leave school........

Aoibheann

if there's one thing I really hate, it's elitists. Ok, so they're smart. We get that they are. But so what? It doesn't make them any better than the rest of us. Everyone has different qualities. Sure, intelligence will perhaps get you your ideal job, but will that job make you happy, if you have no friends? A pretty pointless existence, I have to say. I'd rather be happy than have a job in which I'll earn lots of money. And I sincerely hope it's the same for everyone else.

jono087

Aoibheann Brady wrote:

if there's one thing I really hate, it's elitists. Ok, so they're smart. We get that they are. But so what? It doesn't make them any better than the rest of us. Everyone has different qualities. Sure, intelligence will perhaps get you your ideal job, but will that job make you happy, if you have no friends? A pretty pointless existence, I have to say. I'd rather be happy than have a job in which I'll earn lots of money. And I sincerely hope it's the same for everyone else.

true enough, being "smart has fcuked me up royally though, I got unreal results in the junior cert without much study, and combining my complacency with a pretty pointless transition year and you get:::::::: bad 5th year christmas results

Aoibheann

jono087 wrote:

true enough, being "smart has fcuked me up royally though, I got unreal results in the junior cert without much study, and combining my complacency with a pretty pointless transition year and you get:::::::: bad 5th year christmas results

Knew I was right not to do TY! Similar sort of thing for the JC myself, but the leaving is a much higher standard, obviously. I've done ok in my xmas results, from what I've gotten back, actually I did great so far, but those results were in my 3 best subjects...bio, german and chem. I did ok in irish and english, maths and physics I'm unsure of, havent got them back yet. I'm aiming to actually study sometime, it's just, I dont want to. And I have a mental block against it...it's called laziness. Ah well, I really will study, I have to sometime.

Rezmuter Duane

I have moved on in so far as my education plan is not based on a year round form of CTYI. Now that I have stated that, I will try to answer all arguments as best I can.

Quote: "How is locking up people who are the best of the best in cells excelling them onwards?
You said you wanted to make the people proficient in their superior fields? This contradicts this!"
Response: I never said that the system would lock up the best of the best. It would detain those who didn't want to learn during school hours, accepting the fact that if one doesn't want to learn, one merely distracts others from learning. Also, I would like to add that learning is not limited to academics. Under the system, there would be a course for work placement so if a particular student wanted to work as opposed to learn, they could do so.

Quote: "Seperating classes could harbour attitudes of distrust and superiority or jealousy. As I said to Duane, his system would be very, very good from an educational point of view but far less good from a social point of view"
Response: I firmly believe that it is essential to apply the "Separate yet Integrate" approach. Through this system, all students may receive their education differently yet come together, and indeed, be brought together by activities within schools. *Also noting that Germany separates its education system into distinct spheres of academics. " a secondary level that generally starts at age 11 (grade 5) and is divided into a less academic Hauptschule (to grade 10) leading to vocational education, an intermediate Realschule (not in Austria) leading to a technical or business school, and the academically oriented Gymnasium that leads to the Abitur or Matura diploma": The German Way - Hyde Flippo The German people have a cohesive soceity, yet they seperate the skill oriented, academically talented and academically weak.

Quote: "It would indeed work in a fascist state, but its only fair to say that it would work under other systems of government (probably undemocratic)."
Response: I resent the insinuation that it would only work in an undemocratic system and in fact believe that if only we understood what many of the infamous leaders understood (Education is key) that the system wouldn't be in the sorry state it is in today.

Quote: "Not sure about the plan for the ones unwilling to learn. Seems a bit harsh, although I do understand that they need to be kept seperate, and this option can't be appealing or the entire system would go down the pan. Perhaps they could go to work at some stage, thus solving spraypaints problem of lack of people to do the manual labour."
Response: We already keep them in a classroom against their wishes if they don't want to learn. So what's the difference between a classroom where they don't want to learn and a room with a table and chair. Sorta like a six hour daily detention. They'd soon readjust. I'll answer the 2nd part on spraypaints response after.

Quote: "My next point is that the system could only really work if it took place after some sort of basic education and/or maturity. The decision of wheather you want to work or not can only take place if the person deciding is mature. Unfortunately, some people are intelligent and stay very immature for a long time, so theres your main problem."
Response: This plan applies from the end of primary education, which would be revamped aswell. By then, many would, hopefully, be mature and if not their natural talents could determine their position until they had the necessary maturity to make their decision.

Quote: "I think the system would work, but not from the stage that this country is at at the moment. You'd have to start from scratch, and money would be a huge problem. If money wasn't an object, then you've not really got any huge problem. It would work in a fascist state. (not calling you a fascist)"
Response: As to money, I believe that a 2% upper band increase would cover it, or even a minor diversion from sports funding would provide this. After all, within 20yrs it would generate the income to repay the system. I also believe that when a system is being reformed this drastically, that their is no good starting point and that the improvements are essential regardless of the state of the country.

Quote: "Point 1: Amen and Thank God you don't and never will."
Response: I hope I won't be. However, I do intend to be an elected representative (according to the will of the people) and be a force for constructive change both within the Dáil, Government and FF. The government is there to serve its people, all its people without prejudice and that I hope to do.

Quote: "Point 3(a): You Cannot Be Serious! Now that is tyranny, overboard, extreme and frankly scary. Don't be surprised if you find yourself in a similar(possibly padded) cell in the not too distant future."
Response: Tyranny. Well, if they don't want to learn, what are we doing keeping them in school. Are we not detaining them for six hours a day against their will. I am merely suggesting that they sit in a room elsewhere six hours a day, five days a week so as to prevent them disrupting classes like what happens at present. They would be free to go at 3.50 just like other schools, but it would allow those who want to learn to learn. As to the padded cell, well, once the food is decent I don't mind.

Quote: "Next point 3(b):
When do they choose that?Likewise when are the wheat and the chaf seperated and how and when is it determined who constitutes what? How do you determine which young child is gifted as opposed to any other and thus seperate them into streams? Gifted students inspire each other and push each other forward. Lazy ones hold each other back. Thus the genii excel at a rapid rate and the dunces accomplish nothing."
Response: The first part has been answered above. They choose themselves what fields they want to study in. The separation as to which streams shall be determined through natural ability at a subject at first, and subsequently through continious assessment. As to the gifted students, that is the entire point, to spur them forward. And as to lazy students holding others back, when people of the same level are in a class, they learn at similar rates so they won't be holding anyone back. Also special remedial classes shall be provided to allow anyone who falls behind to catch up, if necessary. And if you mean literally lazy people, they shall be in their detention room, staring at a table and four walls.

Quote: "Point 3(c): If everyone develops to their best potential then wouldn't there be an over-abundance of rocket scientists and quantum physicians and a serious dearth of farmers to grow the food we need to eat and survive and tradespeople to build the world around us."
Response: I feel that provision f deals with this, but just to ensure perfect clarity, I shall answer. Not everyones best potential is Quantum Physics. This is realised in the different qualifications provided for in provision f. The skills section involves technical skills like farming, plumbing, building, all other trades etc. These "hands on" jobs will be taught within the system and qualifications given out. This is to allow all students to hone their abilities in their chosen field allowing for the creation of a skilled and able workforce in all aspects of society. Also, if they wish to get work placements, they can under this system.

Quote: "Point 3(d):This would be impossible without exorbident taxes and/or slave teachers."
Response: As to money, I believe that a 2% upper band increase would cover it, or even a minor diversion from sports funding would provide this. After all, within 20yrs it would generate the income to repay the system.

Quote: "Point 3(e):Certain areas may require more funding than others. The price of books for academics is different to the price of materials for trade students. Anyway your system is so fundimentally flawed that such a system would never arise."
Response: That is why it provides fair financing and not equal financing. Fair financing will provide the funding required for each category.

Quote: "Point 3(f): This wouldn't work for much the same reason as 3(c). Likewise people may not want to do exactly what they are best at. According to my career guidance teacher I'd make a good accountant but I'd rather be something completely different to be honest."
Response: That is where the element of choice comes into play. Provision b is missing. The students have the choice, and if this wasn't clear enough then I'll state it now. The student can choose to study what he wants to study and is not forced to do what he is best it.

Quote: "Your system allows for little interaction between groups so it forms a kind of intellectual Berlin Wall. Very few of my friends can compete with me academically but I still enjoy their company in school.
Also the implementation of your system would require such a radical overall of the current system that it would cost so much and be such a logistical nightmare that it will never be more than a deluded dream."
Response: As stated above, there will be many inter school activities. Also there is a precedent for this type of streaming in the German system. As to the overhaul, most of the beneficial changes involve big overhauls, yet it can be done.

In conclusion, this system promotes choice. Students choose what they want to do. They are no longer forced to sit in classrooms learning from books. They can get work placements, learn skills in workshops, learn to express their creative side and can study in academic fields as well. I hope this answers most questions.

PS: In my opinion, this is not elitist and provides equal opportunities.

halenger

Dear... lord....

I'm not even gonna bother reading that. Now. I do believe the real world is calling again.

ll=llannah

*whimper*
gah!
at least it wins most thorough post of the month!
yay shiny trophies.

(...i was trying to think of something to add which could be relevant to this forum. nothing cameth. ah well.)

Raphael

Rezmuter Duane wrote:

It would detain those who didn't want to learn during school hours, accepting the fact that if one doesn't want to learn, one merely distracts others from learning

PS: In my opinion, this is not elitist and provides equal opportunities.

I read the end and the start, and I anoticed one contradiction. MAkes me not want to read the middle

It wasn't me!

Oh God I can't believe I read that whole thing. I also can't believe that's not the longest post I've ever read. I need a life...