psychic or mentally unbalanced

CodeMonkey

Your reply is only what I expected and reinforces my point! Theres no point in getting into a technical discussion with you, we have such opposing viewpoints, I accept your skepticism as valid, and unless I produce something that YOU specifically will believe I will be at nothing

Agreed. Which is why I don't participate normally in this forum. I do find stuff interesting though. Just needed to point out not all skeptics are intolerant people or without reason.

As I have said before, I would not accept something airey fairey either

Ok, then explain how the smokey quartz and cross ring works as a form of protection. You believe they have protective properties because of what you've read or been told by like minded people or did they help you in any way? And I don't mean crediting them for saving your life just cause you happen to have them with you when something bad happened.

Oryx

Both were given to me by people who love me, and it gives me security to wear them, if I feel troubled or depressed having these things makes me feel better. And because I believe in spirit (i have my reasons, lets not go there again) the items also help me remember and surround myself with the love and caring that they often bring too. They are not talismans with a power of their own. To you this may just be strong visualisation, whatever it is it works for me. I read angel cards too, not because it is fashionable, but because it means something to me, but I dont base life decisions on it and I dont think archangel michael is sitting at my shoulder or anything. The more you get into this field and the more experiences you have, the more open you become.
(Man this is like therapy your making me examine my own motives, you should be charging me a fortune )

Airey fairey is accepting something on blind faith simply because you read it or its fashionable. For example I believe that the healing technique Reiki has a lot of merit, but teaching it in an afternoon for €300 makes me wonder.(Oh god dont let the floodgates open now....)

CodeMonkey

Then they are not protection at all. Mere momentos. The distinction is important here cause as far as I can see everyone took what you said literally. Making unqualified statements like that to a bunch of people who is quite open to this sort of thing only re-enforces their false (or not depending on who you are talking to) believes.

But even if you do consider them talisman of power, there is no reputable, world recognised authority that can say what is and what isn't. It's all open to personal interpretation. Why is this a bad thing for believers? Let me quote Kennett:

Kennett wrote:

Good stuff Btw, the pendulum I use can be used for protection too... As well as communication. I thought long and hard about my tattoos... Got them done when I was 20... Right one is a wolf, left one is a Chinese Dragon... Kind of represents myself in a sense... Ie: The dragon represents my worst side, where I can really go on a rampage, and the wolf is my calm, and dare I say wise state. Still though, if you believe they protect you, then it's all that matters in the long run

The chinese dragon is a divine creature and not a rampaging beast. It just makes skeptics harder to believe you when people interpret something as well defined as the chinese dragon into something else.

Oryx

I find it hard to explain myself on these boards, and I am concious of the fact that if I use one wrong word, I'll be picked up on it. We are dealing with an area that defies explanation, the best scientists in the world cant deal with it, so how can I begin to? This conversation started out by my saying I find it hard to come out to non believers, and this is why. I did not make an 'unqualified statement' I merely said what I believe, and you are no more qualified than I so dont deny it just because you dont understand it. I could try to explain further but I really feel we are talking different languages. You dont and wont believe in psychic phenomenon and I do.

GuanYin

CodeMonkey wrote:

Then they are not protection at all. Mere momentos. The distinction is important here cause as far as I can see everyone took what you said literally. Making unqualified statements like that to a bunch of people who is quite open to this sort of thing only re-enforces their false (or not depending on who you are talking to) believes. .

Just to step in, you're dishing out opinions masquerading as fact.

First off there are several psychological studies that suggest that when people feel safer they are safer. That is, when someone has something that they associate with calm or comfort, they are less likely to directly or indirectly become a victim through negligence. This may or may not be an instinct inherited from birth, but the same basic pattern seen with babies (blankets, facecloths, toys.. ie. comforters) is also present in adults, albeit subconciously. Do you or people you know always ensure that they have something given by a loved one? A present, maybe a ring inherited from a parent? Its quite probable that such items, offer the wearer a sense of well being and subconciously that is protection.

Mind you, this is in direct contrast to my experience, which is when people are on familar ground, ie. home, they are most likely to be a victim of an an accident through carelessness (like sticking your hand into a pot of soup while reaching for the handle). That said, even within the home, people experience varying levels of feelings of security, so again tokens that "offer protection" may, on a subconcious level at least, have some merit.

CodeMonkey

syke, I understand how momentos and security blankets can be psychologically beneficial to people. They (not KatieK) were talking about paranormal protection were they not? That's why I thought she needed to be specific. In any case, I think I am done for now. Thanks for replying. It made a boring morning go by very quickly

GuanYin

CodeMonkey wrote:

syke, I understand how momentos and security blankets can be psychologically beneficial to people. They (not KatieK) were talking about paranormal protection were they not? That's why I thought she needed to be specific. In any case, I think I am done for now. Thanks for replying. It made a boring morning go by very quickly

Well whats the paranormal if not something that we don't quite understand just yet.

I'm of the opinion that much of this type of phenomenon relies on the subconcious, and one persons subconcious action is anothers paranormal experience.

Its very hard to distinuish the supernatural from the preternatural especially when the results are indistinguishable.

The first witchcraft was now what we call chemistry

It still doesn't take away from the effects and I was under the impression you didn't believ it had any effect. If I'm mistaken, my bad.

stormkeeper

CodeMonkey wrote:

But even if you do consider them talisman of power, there is no reputable, world recognised authority that can say what is and what isn't. It's all open to personal interpretation. Why is this a bad thing for believers? Let me quote Kennett:

The chinese dragon is a divine creature and not a rampaging beast. It just makes skeptics harder to believe you when people interpret something as well defined as the chinese dragon into something else.

Well, I think I meant that the dragon can be a fierce creature in its worst state, as can a wolf really... I have a bad habit of not being able to explain what I mean at times, and I hate doing it, but there's times when I can't help it as my thoughts can be pretty jumbled up. =/

I think I was implying, I could be as calm as one, and as fierce as the other in my extremes at either end. That said, I haven't explored the middle ground so much with either...

CodeMonkey

syke wrote:

Well whats the paranormal if not something that we don't quite understand just yet.

We do have a basic understanding of emotions, mental processes and behaviour. I am sure any psychology text book will go into detail on how and why inanimate objects can produce an emotional response in people. More importantly, they can all be observed independently by almost everyone.

Paranormal isn't just something not understood. It typically refers to abnormal experiences that only the "gifted" can experience such as telepathy, communicating with the dead. I've never heard anyone describe security blankets as paranormal objects of power before!

I'm of the opinion that much of this type of phenomenon relies on the subconcious, and one persons subconcious action is anothers paranormal experience.

Yeah, the former group of people tend to tell the later it's all in their head!

The first witchcraft was now what we call chemistry

Maybe the part of witchcraft that deals with potions and mixing chemicals together. How was that in any way paranormal to begin with apart from it associated with someone that claims to have other paranomal gifts.

It still doesn't take away from the effects and I was under the impression you didn't believ it had any effect. If I'm mistaken, my bad.

Ok, I don't believe the objects themselves have any special attributes. It would have meaning to someone that associates it with a memory of someone or something and again there is nothing paranormal about this.

KateK wrote:

You dont and wont believe in psychic phenomenon and I do.

It's not that I won't, I just haven't seen any evidence that can be independently verified.

Nevyn

KatieK wrote:

Both were given to me by people who love me, and it gives me security to wear them, if I feel troubled or depressed having these things makes me feel better.

I would argue that this would make them for you

KatieK wrote:

talismans with a power of their own.

Be it the intiont of those who gave them to you as a repesentation of thier love for you or of your own making as they repesent and/or hold some of that caring protection.

There is a lot of meaning /folklore/tradition call it what you will of giving a loved one somthing for protection from prechristain times to children being given mircalus medals to crosses on chains. Each item bought and given in love to protect the wearer.

KatieK wrote:

Airey fairey is accepting something on blind faith simply because you read it or its fashionable.

Maybe but for a lot of things we believe in them because of faith it is something we have been taught and have experienced for ourselves.
What is Faith?
What is Fate ?
What is superstition?
What is paranormal?

For a lot of people these are not clear cut at all and where you have those who do not believe in any of the above to being discouraging and patronising of those who do in a lot of a cases infringles on thier religious beliefs.
Not just the pagan/wiccans or the new agers but a lot of chirstians and catholics who believe in an afterlife spirits and angels.

A lot of these experinces are intesenly personal so they are had to explain or but into words unless someone has experienced something simular, and well
it is a hard topic to disscuss for who wants people to call you a raving looney when you talking about something that is that personal and to do with your spiritual or religious beliefs.

Sometimes thoses types of converstions happen with a certain person at a certain time for a certain reason and a connection is made. You may know someone for years and never dicuss this type of things till late one night or have meet some one once and found your self in such a converstaion. Personally I would see this as a Fate that you were ment to have 'one of those ' converstions with some one at a given time.

Which is why trying to talk about these things here where they can be read by anyone , practically all over the globe for years to come with boards.ie being gone through by the google serach engine is difficult imho.

it's a bit like in " search for spock" when Dr lenord 'bones' McCoy wants to talk to Spock after his katra is reunited with his body what it was like to die and return and Spock refuses saying that it would not be possible to have that discussion as MCCoy would not have a common frame of reference to dicuss it." You mean I woudl have to die and come back from the dead before I could talk to you about it? " says MCoy " Yes" replies Spock.

I am not trying to be exclusive or excluding but this is the fact in many cases.
And the barage of that cant be and prove it posts may kill any chance such discussions have here.

Oryx

Thanks for the post Thaed, you encompass how Im feeling about posting right now, am fed up with arguing about it to CodeMonkey or anyone else, I came on boards to talk to people with similar experiences, not to constantly defend myself against non believers. I think the subject is better discussed irl and thats what Ill be doing from now on... :rolleyes:

CodeMonkey

A lot of these experinces are intesenly personal so they are hard to explain or put into words unless someone has experienced something similar, and well it is a hard topic to disscuss for who wants people to call you a raving looney when you talking about something that is that personal and to do with your spiritual or religious beliefs.
<snip>
I am not trying to be exclusive or excluding but this is the fact in many cases. And the barage of that cant be and prove it posts may kill any chance such discussions have here.

I agree that these experiences are incredibly personal and no doubt did happen. I am questioning the personal interpretion of these events because they were presented as facts, not personal beliefs. I think that's why KatieK has to defend herself from my posts because she doesn't agree with the way I am interpreting events. There was never any name calling.

For instance, in the scenario you gave about Fate. Someone might believe that it was meant to happen, that is it's a predetermined event. Others might see it as an important event in their life and because it's so life changing that they can't imagine not having that conversation but to them there is never anything paranormal about it. They might even call it Fate because of a lack of a better word to describe it. So am I to assume they are talking about the same thing with the same beliefs without questioning people? And should people who has the same experiences but with different conclusions and interpretations be also excluded from such discussions?

Personally, I don't see how these subjects are better suited for real life discussions. I find that I can express myself a lot better and clearer when I can read over what I've written.

Nevyn

all facts are subjective unless they can be proved time and time again under given condidtions.

CodeMonkey wrote:

So am I to assume they are talking about the same thing with the same beliefs without questioning people? And should people who has the same experiences but with different conclusions and interpretations be also excluded from such discussions?

not everyone has the same beliefs that believes in such thing for they are based on personal experices so subjective facts in many cases.
yes people may have has simular experices and draw different conclusions
hence the saying when you get 3 pagans together to talk about a topic you can have 5 opinions but that should not mean they respect each other any less if they disagree or get snotty and say prove it.

stevenmu

I hate when threads get this long, it's so hard to catch up ...

CodeMonkey wrote:

It typically refers to abnormal experiences that only the "gifted" can experience such as telepathy, communicating with the dead.

I think at this stage most, or at least a large proportion of, people who believe in 'psychic' abilities, believe that they're possessed equally by everyone. It's just that some people have learnt, or have natural understanding of, how to use them better. I think of in the same way as a baby hasn't yet learnt the motor skills nessecary to pick up a mug and drink out of it whereas it's something that most of us can do without any concious effort (as a mind opening excersise, next time you take a drink, try focusing on every individual small muscle movement and all the exact coordination required to this, then compare to how you'd normally take a drink). To continue the metaphor, personally I believe, or at least suspect, that some of us are waving our arms around in front of the cup, maybe even knocking it over from time to time, while most of us don't even realise there's anything interesting in the cup at all and just sit around making funny faces at those who do.

CodeMonkey wrote:

Consider sleep paralysis. Before there was a scientic explaination for it, people in the medieval ages thought they were being visited by the devil who is sitting on top of them and so they can't move or breath.

AFAIK the scientific explanation for sleep paralysis doesn't rule out any concurrent paranormal explanation, it just describes the pysiological conditions that cause you to be paralysed. The more popular (I think) current paranormal explanation is that it's linked to astral travelling (your spirit leaving you body while your asleep). The paralysis (and other weird side effects) are caused by your spirit not having fully returned to your body when it awakes. It's possible to meet negative energy beings in the astral plane the fear and shock of which can cause this. I'm not saying this is definitly true, but current science doesn't rule it out. In medieval times christianity would have been popular so people would have interpreted this as being "the devil". The point being that often, if not always, paranormal experiences are very open to interpretation by those who experience them. They will inevitably try to fit them into their own belief systems and as such they should never be taken too literally.

Speaking from my own limited experience: I've always had a keen interest in science and been pretty sceptical about non-provable things (figured out the truth about a certain seasonal jolly man by the time I was 4). I have degrees in comp sci and maths and a few years of 3rd level mathematical physics and chemistry, so I like to think I've a pretty rational, logical and scientific mind. I often had minor 'paranormal' experiences happen, mainly things like 'remembering' something just before it actually happened. I'd always put this down to stuff like my subconcious mind being able to calculate exactly what was going to happen just before it did, even though the rational part of my mind always said there was no f*cking way it could get things that complicated so precisely right. I'd also seen a few auras around people altough I just put it down to a trick of the eyes (had never actually heard of auras at the time). Eventually one pretty major thing happened that I'd kind of foreseen and I decided that maybe there's something to it. I went looking around the net at more and more paranormal stuff and saw bits and pieces that just felt right. I also found instructions on how to see auras, which worked after only a minutes and that pretty much convinced me that some of could be true. I ended up talking it over with a close friend (pretty much exactly like Thaed described above), who it turned out had had some very similar experiences, and I decided there and then to believe that some 'paranormal' stuff must be true, and to be open to all possibilities.

That's where the problems start. I can't really prove to myself that any of it's 'true', let alone attempt to prove it to anyone else. Similarly no-one else can prove to me that anything they've experienced is 'true' and not some sort of hallucination/delusion. Also as I pointed out above, people tend to unwittingly colour their own experiences with their own beliefs, so there could be something 'real' behind it even if the way they portray it isn't. The same goes for all of the religions/spiritualities and various belief systems out there. It's quite plausible that there is something behind all of them, perhaps some kind of divine being/life force/energy/something, but there's so much other stuff added in it may be impossible to find it. I'd like to think that one day science will discover explanations for it all, and I think for that to happen people must be very open minded about it. My own beliefs, change pretty much everytime I think about them, I can't even remember what I was trying to say in this post when it started, so I suppose in many ways it would be fair to say I'm insane or mentally unbalanced. But I can equally look at at people (not pointing any finger here) who refuse to allow the possiblities of the paranormal simply because of no positive proof, despite the fact that the vast majority of scientific theories have later been proved false (many ridicoulosly so), and think of the as being equally insane or unbalanced.

Kenneth wrote:

Yeah... It takes a long time to study it all, due to the amount of stuff there is. You could study a lifetime and still only be scratching the surface...

Thaed wrote:

it is helpfull if you believe that you have other life times to catch up or to help you remember.

Maybe I'll dedicate one of my future lives to it so, I'm pretty sure this is my first (unless I was really lazy in all past ones and did nothing worth remembering, which is very possible )

<edit>
P.S. I promise not to write such long threads while trying to work at same time in future, kind of lost myself a few times there
</edit>

stormkeeper

I do believe in past lives and all, but the problem is you have to learn how to unlock what you learned in a past life, which can be easier said than done... It is possible though if you believe...

[Jackass]

Well, i'll tell you a true story, which you may or may not believe, but firstly i would like it to be known that i do not believe i am a psychic, or that i am mental!!!

But i live in my home for 21 years (since i was born) and i started to notice a feeling i would get sometimes in the house usually in the kitchen or upstairs landing...and for no apperent reason, the hairs on the back of my neck would stand up and i felt slight rushing feeling through my body, which i immediatly believed to be a pressence.
I didnt feel in danger, but a little fightend to be honest, possibly of this unknown feeling, anyway, once i became aware of it i started to feel it more often and more distinctly (want for a better word), sometimes a chill on the back of my ears, and a noticable rise in my body tempreture, and i started to feel it in more places in the house, but for some reason NEVER in the back room, or the end part of te kitchen, i eventually told my mum in a joking kind of way, so as not to be percieved as a fruit cake, that i think the house has a ghost...but i never used the word haunted....my mum thought it was silly but it kept getting more and more distinct untill eventually i told mum im convinced of it, to which she got kind of frightend in the house on her own, but i told her i dont feel anything bad from it, it seems very "friendly" or at least not evil, just watches us....and one day i was watching tv with my mum, and out of nowhere i turned to her and said...the ghosts name is Mary..i dont know where it came from, i didnt audabley hear anything...it just arrived in my head...anyway, my mums face dropped...she said the lady who sold this house was called Mary, she died in the house, and my mum had met her, said she was very friendly and nice....but that was before we built the extension to the kitchen and put in a back room.

Co-incidence? very possibly, but that dosent explain the lead up to me feeling the "pressence" , and maybe, subconciously, i stumbled across another sense which over time became stronger, but i cant "use" it or turn it on just like i cant try to see sometihng or hear it, it just happend, and now i get that feeling quite often, and usually in old buildings.

Oryx

DubGuy22 wrote:

but i cant "use" it or turn it on just like i cant try to see sometihng or hear it, it just happend, and now i get that feeling quite often, and usually in old buildings.

From this quote it seems you are using it... you can develop it if you want, but its a difficult and sometimes confusing thing to do

stevenmu

KatieK wrote:

Thanks for the post Thaed, you encompass how Im feeling about posting right now, am fed up with arguing about it to CodeMonkey or anyone else, I came on boards to talk to people with similar experiences, not to constantly defend myself against non believers.

I know how you feel, sometimes it's tempting to go to the Skeptics Forum and demand proof backing up their beliefs. Altough to be fair this particular thread was always going to errupt into scepticism, and not really be a good place to discuss your views (which was mainly my fault for asking so many questions, oops, sorry)

BEAT

To answer the original poster...
Some are frauds some are genuine.

I have read a few pages but couldnt be arsed to read all the responses,
What I will say is that no matter where you take this conversation there will be nay sayers, sceptics.

I have run into my fair share of people who claimed to be "psychic, or witches" and generally they are not. I have found that more often than not when I meet someone wearing a pentagram who believes they are a witch they are not. They sometimes are going through a religious crisis or are rebelling against normality...

I personally have the ability to know when they are in fact geniune or just mislead in thier beliefs, or a plain out fraud.
I am able to tell when a person has abilities and doesnt realise it or denies it, after talking to them it comes out and they have that look on thier face, like wow...how did you know that? I can tell right away from meeting someone usually. You'd be surprised how many people have 'special abilities' but deny them...because of fear or doubt mainly.

How do I know there are genuine psychics and supernatural things actually occuring in the world? how can I be positive?
Well, I am not mentally unstable and lead a balanced happy life. Having said that I have expereinced things that can not be explained by science.
I have posted on this forum before of my experiences but havnt the energy to explain the unexpainable.
I have come across people so closed off to other possibilities that they could never really fully accept it even if it was staring them in the face.

If you want to believe and open yourself up to it then the answers will be there. It is easier for some than others and there will always be doubters.
I do not feel the need to make people believe because I know what is true and that is all I need.

ssallyg

I believe that people hear voices for reason... We all have an internal voice... guiding us... plus there are things that you hear that are things other people have said to you for years. It soes not mean you are ill...
Some people are very intuitive and are able to tune into their psychic abilities.. Spiritual journeys (non drug realted) should NEVER be interupted...

doubletrouble?

was going to multi quote alot of stuff here till i seen hold old the posts are. over 7 years old. thread needs to be locked away in the archives.

MrMojoRisin

ssallyg wrote: »

I believe that people hear voices for reason... We all have an internal voice... guiding us... plus there are things that you hear that are things other people have said to you for years. It soes not mean you are ill...
Some people are very intuitive and are able to tune into their psychic abilities.. Spiritual journeys (non drug realted) should NEVER be interupted...

Thread now closed.

ssallyg - please do not resurrect ancient threads by posting in them. Thanks.