IRA and the Nothern Bank Robbery

Cork

jbkenn wrote:

The Taoiseach Bertie Ahern has said on Radio 1 news that he is satisfied that the robbery was carried out by the Provisional IRA, and, that the leadership of the PIRA, and Sinn Fein, were aware of the planning of the raid. He did not answer that specific members of the leadership were aware, but, that the leadership were aware.

jbkenn

I did not hear An Taoiseach's interview but there is growing concern about the peace process because of illegal activity.

Democrat? You want to disenfranchise the people who vote SF and re-introduce censorship. Funny idea of democracy

If SF wants to continue playing a role in the Peace Process - It should acknowdege that any criminality by the IRA has to stop.

Otherwise - the should be excluded.

cdebru

Cork wrote:

Van or no van - criminality by the IRA has to end.

the point is it does not seem to be a very successfull investigation
3 weeks later despite having video of the van used they can not find it never mind the people involved
it seems to me that following the largest bank robbery in irish or uk history the ammount of pressure on orde must be huge and he cannot find anything
he blames the IRA pressure transfers from him to sinn fein
if his intelligence is good why did he not know about the robbery in advance

imagine if he had told a press conference the PSNI have no idea who carried it out and has no evidence against anyone 3 weeks into the investigation

Cork

cdebru, I think the Belfast bank raid was the straw the broke the camels back.

What is now needed is all paramilitary activity has to stop.

Thats it in a nutshell.

cdebru

Cork wrote:

cdebru, I think the Belfast bank raid was the straw the broke the camels back.

What is now needed is all paramilitary activity has to stop.

Thats it in a nutshell.

I agree that it has to end i just would not take it as read that the IRA were definitely responsible
I would like to see some evidence thats all
If they were responsible it has to be one of the stupidest moves ever made and would make it impossible for sinn fein to continue with any real credibility as there is no armed campaign there can be no political justification for the robbery

I just find it hard to believe the leadership of the prvos could be so stupid so i await evidence

jbkenn

cdebru wrote:

if and it is a big if the IRA are responsible they deserve a kick in the bollox

Taoiseach's word not good enough for you

however i would not take hugh ordes word for it

Why not?

they have not even managed to find the van yet which must be embarrassing for orde blaming the RA takes the heat off the PSNI.

Even the PIRA are not stupid enough to leave forensic evidence lying around

jbkenn

cdebru

jbkenn wrote:

Taoiseach's word not good enough for you

Why not?


Even the PIRA are not stupid enough to leave forensic evidence lying around

jbkenn

no


read the post

no one is smart enough to leave no evidence

Cork

I just that this bank raid was the final straw.

I feel disgusted with SF/IRA. So much effort was put into the Peace Process & it now lies in tatters.

I personally will not be commenting for a few days on this. I have had it with Sf/IRA & I am tired of highlighting the criminality of IRA activity.

I actually once voted for SF to encourage them into the democratic process. I just hope the Peace Process can be revived with or without SF.

What is now needed a total end to paramilitary/criminal activity.

No more excuses from Adams and company.

mad_martian

they did it - no question (or at least provided logistics).....

I know for a fact that some of the used notes are in circulation in some areas under IRA "control" eg buy a £50 for £20 - thinking of getting one to hang on my wall....

as for the political ramifications - the purpose of a terrorist is to terrorise, all this "you can't bomb your way to the table" is rubbish - thats exactly how it works - Gerry and Martin got plenty of free flights to the UK to talk to senior gov, intelligence and military figures in the last 30 years while bombing the crap out of the place.

In my op the PSNI know who it was and have to be seen to investigate by normal law abiding people but it wont suit "process" to pursue too much.

So Mr Orde is saying "I know that you know that I know" and in few months it will be forgotten and after the UK election we can start acting like adults again (and you can keep the 20mill (nearer 50mill I heard) for your pension!!! And SF will buy the movie rights - Brad Pitt will be up for the lead too........

Don't loose sight of big picture... :eek:

just a footnote tp pre-empt the replies - I am not anti-republican movement at all....just wouldnt trust them with my wallet. You can't ban SF (or hardline loyalism) from process....dudes...they ARE the process whether you like it or not.

monument

mad_martian wrote:

I know for a fact that some of the used notes are in circulation in some areas under IRA "control" eg buy a £50 for £20

I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the only type of “proof” that the PSNI/RUC have.

Hey, it probably was the IRA, but if all Orde is going by is speculation, and circumstantial evidence, he’s playing a very dangerous game.

Not only is he knocking a blow to the credibly of the IRA, and SF, but if it is only speculation, and circumstantial evidence, the fact that the PSNI has not changed will be drilled into the heads of nationalists.

But if it was the IRA - it would have being better if all they had ever done was rob banks (or if you're the Leader that's done "bank jobs").

A Dub in Glasgo

I think everybody knows that this robbery is a fatal bodyblow to the peace process if the IRA done it. It is of such importance, that the allegation that it was the IRA should not be good enough for anyone concerned about the peace process. Some sort of proof must be provided and not just speculation.

If it has been proved to be the IRA, that will go down as the biggest single political mis-calculation in the whole peace process from the IRA. The IRA have invested too much in the peace process to let it die in such a manner. Proof is needed!

mad_martian

maybe - theres "proof" and evidence - not the same thing....

as far as "middle of road" people in NI/UK go, SF-IRA dont have any credibility

IMHO a lot has been done to PSNI to improve them but most Nationalists dont trust them either

so fair is fair on that one

I think Mr Orde is probably least tainted Chief Con we have had in NI but he is gonna play political game if he wants to survive

I mean - what do people expect -- Gerrys gonna lean over to some NIO civil servant from finance over lunch and say "tell the boys in Northern Bank to watch their backs..." Gerry would be out on his arse in a field in monaghan by close of business....

billy the squid

I was just wondering if the provision of proof to the media would damage any prosecution case in the event that suspects are charged with the robbery. Could this have been the reason that the the PSNI chief did not elaborate on the evidence behind his chail.

Personally I think that to blame the IRA without offering one shread of evidence was a little premature. At worst it could end their "ceasefire"" I am sure that he thought about this long and hard before making his revelation.

A Dub in Glasgo

billy the squid wrote:

I was just wondering if the provision of proof to the media would damage any prosecution case in the event that suspects are charged with the robbery. Could this have been the reason that the the PSNI chief did not elaborate on the evidence behind his chail.

I was really talking about actions from the police, they need to charge and present evidence to convict the bank robbers and then we can take stock about whether the IRA were involved. At the moment, their 'investigations' appear to be going nowhere.

Personally I think that to blame the IRA without offering one shread of evidence was a little premature. At worst it could end their "ceasefire"" .

I agree

MrPudding

How many time have we heard "we know who did it, we just can't prove it." It is not what you know but what you can prove.

I really hope that Orde is wrong. At the same time even if he is right there could be good reason for not releasing any evidence he has. Often the release of info gives a clue as to how the info was found. This could put people or ongoing operations in danger.

If he is right I would presume that he has evidence of IRA guilt. This evidence may not be strong enough to bring charges or may be of a nature that does not allow it to be released for security reasons. I would imagine that now they have, they think, worked out who is responsible they will now work to gather evidence which they can release and which will not endanger assets or operations. I do not believe it is uncommon for police forces, not just the PSNI, to identify the perpetrators of a crime and then work backwards gathering evidence, vadil evidence I mean not made up.

Or for the conspirisy buffs. There is one other organisation in NI that would have the manpower and knowledge to carry out a raid like that. That would be the security forces. So maybe the "anti peace" forces within the PSNI that Orde himself spoke of last year planned and carried out the raid with the intention of blaming the PIRA in order to bring the peace process to a flaming halt.

I think the PIRA is most likely, but I am surprised they are so stupid....... but then maybe they thought we would think that. Hmmm cunning.

MrP

A Dub in Glasgo

MrPudding wrote:

Or for the conspirisy buffs. There is one other organisation in NI that would have the manpower and knowledge to carry out a raid like that. That would be the security forces. So maybe the "anti peace" forces within the PSNI that Orde himself spoke of last year planned and carried out the raid with the intention of blaming the PIRA in order to bring the peace process to a flaming halt.

Don't be silly, the British security forces would never do such a thing. There is absolutely no evidence that they have ever done such a thing and they are true democrats therefore it would be unbelievable that they could even think of such a thing... Honest

Sand

Or for the conspirisy buffs. There is one other organisation in NI that would have the manpower and knowledge to carry out a raid like that. That would be the security forces. So maybe the "anti peace" forces within the PSNI that Orde himself spoke of last year planned and carried out the raid with the intention of blaming the PIRA in order to bring the peace process to a flaming halt.

Yeah, I had thought of that but I dismissed it - it would have made far more sense to carry out this sort of operation a month or two ago when a deal was hanging in the balance, not after it had already failed.

Democrat? You want to disenfranchise the people who vote SF and re-introduce censorship. Funny idea of democracy

Just because people vote for anti-democratic forces does not give them a right to commit terrorist and crinimal acts without consequences. If they want to vote for a subversive faction that embraces terrorism and criminality, then frankly **** them and their ****ed up views.

Youve never commented on the democratic credibility of a party that maintains a terrorist force?

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

Just because people vote for anti-democratic forces does not give them a right to commit terrorist and crinimal acts without consequences. If they want to vote for a subversive faction that embraces terrorism and criminality, then frankly **** them and their ****ed up views.

SF are not the IRA and people vote for SF for many reasons. Good to see you have joined the ranks of the 'democrats' where you will fcuk them and see their views as fcuked up... Well done

Youve never commented on the democratic credibility of a party that maintains a terrorist force?

SF are not the IRA and are entering into the demcratic process. Some here will shut the door of the process in thier face thus disenfranchising tens of thousands of people and they are advocating censorship. Democrats indeed.

mad_martian

SF are not the IRA.............true, SF are a political party

the IRA are not SF...........true, IRA are an "army" of freedom fighters/terrorists (depending on your POV)

but I don't think anyone really believes they are not just two sides of the same coin .........

if I was a leader in the republican movement - could I not conceivably plan a political manoevre in the morning thro SF and a military operation in the evening thro the boy's in balaclavas.....as long as it achieved my republican ends I would not care

ditto for the loyalist parties, UUP DUP PUP etc have always been quite happy to break the law or incite others to do same when it suits their political ends...

ditto for security forces - under the direction of their masters - can quite easily "bend" the rules and leave people for dead

pot.....kettle.... black

cdebru

mad_martian wrote:

they did it - no question (or at least provided logistics).....

I know for a fact that some of the used notes are in circulation in some areas under IRA "control" eg buy a £50 for £20 - thinking of getting one to hang on my wall....

as for the political ramifications - the purpose of a terrorist is to terrorise, all this "you can't bomb your way to the table" is rubbish - thats exactly how it works - Gerry and Martin got plenty of free flights to the UK to talk to senior gov, intelligence and military figures in the last 30 years while bombing the crap out of the place.

In my op the PSNI know who it was and have to be seen to investigate by normal law abiding people but it wont suit "process" to pursue too much.

So Mr Orde is saying "I know that you know that I know" and in few months it will be forgotten and after the UK election we can start acting like adults again (and you can keep the 20mill (nearer 50mill I heard) for your pension!!! And SF will buy the movie rights - Brad Pitt will be up for the lead too........

Don't loose sight of big picture... :eek:

just a footnote tp pre-empt the replies - I am not anti-republican movement at all....just wouldnt trust them with my wallet. You can't ban SF (or hardline loyalism) from process....dudes...they ARE the process whether you like it or not.

no offence but that sounds like shlte

monument

monument wrote:

Hey, it probably was the IRA, but if all Orde is going by is speculation, and circumstantial evidence, he’s playing a very dangerous game.

You see this is the nubb of the issue at what stage do you stand up and say guys who the hell do ye think we are, do ye think that because this is a peace process that gives your mates the rights to get some sort of criminal pension out of it.

Its not normal and should be sanctioned.

This country does not have the patience for guys who when told off about this would decide to go back to bombing and shooting, the country wouldnt stand for it and any republican whether to the left or right of the mainstream or in the mainstream who thinks otherwise is a fool.

The scarey thing is, some of them don't realise that they are foolish.
I'd suspect Adams and McGuinness are doing their best to Ram that message home even possibly to guys close to whoever was responsible for the robbery.

If its not getting through, Sinn Féin will pay the price certainly south of the border.

mad_martian

cdebru wrote:

no offence but that sounds like shlte

none taken, you must have loved my next post then ,,,but seriously to which sh1te are you referring ???

FTA69

For the entire Sinn Féin-IRA tribe has been given every reason to believe, almost time without number, that they are immune to the law. There was the Castlereagh break-in by the IRA, in which the IRA made off with the master-disk of British intelligence in the North, but there was no political price to be paid.

The Castlereagh break in which was never proven to be the work of Republicans. Police investigations are now pointing towards renegade elements in the RIR and considering the UDA also came out publicly and stated they are in possesion of the files I fail to see how we are responsible. Maybe you yourself have proof of this allegation Cork?

This was followed by the Stormont spying scandal, and instead of Sinn Féin being suspended from the Executive, the entire process was put into suspension.

The spying scandal which has recently seen all charges relating to espionage on the part of the accused dropped? The scandal which resulted on a massive raid on Sinn Féin office in which a whopping 3 discs were seized which transpired to be innocuous?

Shinners

Someone has rightly brought up the origins of this nonsense term, this was a slur used by the Black and Tans to denegrate your own countrymen, why do you so enthusiastically entertain it? Will you be calling us Fenians next? Or even taigs? Oh, my apologies, I only just realised there that you were regurgitating some Sunday Independent tripe. (or was it Kevin Briars?) Are you unable to speak for yourself?

FTA69

Earthman wrote:

deliver an ultimatum to the RIRA and CIRA guys.

What do you expect us to do about them? Give them beatings? I thought ye people were against that sort of thing?

To be honest with you , I'm of the view that membership of PIRA,CIRA and RIRA is from a common base

That shows a stunning ignorance of Republican structure and relations. The RIRA absolutely despise the provos and any IRA Volunteer or Sinn Féin member who was seen to be consorting with them would have a lot of questions to answer. The two groups are not only entirely seperate but entirely opposed to each other.

true

mad_martian wrote:

SF are not the IRA.............true, SF are a political party

the IRA are not SF...........true, IRA are an "army" of freedom fighters/terrorists (depending on your POV)

but I don't think anyone really believes they are not just two sides of the same coin .........

if I was a leader in the republican movement - could I not conceivably plan a political manoevre in the morning thro SF and a military operation in the evening thro the boy's in balaclavas.....as long as it achieved my republican ends I would not care

Well said, Mad Martin. We know Gerry Adams says he was never in the IRA, and yet who was well know to be head of the IRA in "Long Kesh" in the early seventies during Gerry Adams stay there? The same man. Numerous other activists " caught in the act" over the years were also part of the same political wing. "An armative in one hand and a ballot box in the other". To the man in the street, I think they know the situation.

A Dub in Glasgo

FTA69 wrote:

Will you be calling us Fenians next?

Fenian is used quite a lot here in Scotland and tbh, I am quite proud to be called a Fenian! Maybe not quite the word bastard after it though

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

To the man in the street, I think they know the situation.

Again, what street?

true

FTA69 wrote:

The Castlereagh break in which was never proven to be the work of Republicans. Police investigations are now pointing towards renegade elements in the RIR and considering the UDA also came out publicly and stated they are in possesion of the files I fail to see how we are responsible.

The topic of discussion was deciding which paramilitary group actually carried out " the Castlereagh break in by the IRA " ( FTA69s words , not mine ) : FTA69 then says " I ( FTA69 ) fail to see how we are responsible ".

By any chance, are you in the IRA , FTA69 ?

true

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Again, what street?

The man in every Street in Ireland. It is a local expression.


Incidentally, in relation to the Castlereagh break in , while FTA69 thinks it was the RIR or UDA , was there also a stronger suspicion pointing at the IRA - was there not a republican cook or somebody who worked there until before the break in and then left for the United States and refused to co-operate with enquiries? I seem to remember something about that from the TV.

sceptre

Treading close to my uncivility yardstick at times folks. Just a headsup and these days due to time constraints I tend to ban first and ask questions a week later.

Treading close to my wide-eyed innocently feigned dumbness yardstick at times too but that isn't a bannable offence today unless I reckon it is.

Civility is cheap - it's also a necessary (albeit not sufficient) condition for continued posting. Your call.

Alex27

My apologies for posting slightly off topic (IRA and the Northern Bank Robbery).

Few thoughts.

Imho forum is a place for the people from all walks of live to exchange opinions on a variety of topics in the civilised manner. Character attacks as such do not lead to proving one` point futher unless person whose character is questioned advocates something that is not harmonious with his values, acts e.g person advocating against use of sugar as it`s unhealthy substance while drinking tea with plenty of sugar in it.

And you can hardly know fellow poster whom you haven`t met face to face.

I believe that people are to be appreciated for their decision to express their point of view as it is, provided it`s a genuine point of view and not a mere production of some PR machine. A bit more healthy respect for another poster will do no harm.