IRA and the Nothern Bank Robbery

FTA69

FTA69 wrote:

What do you expect us to do about them? Give them beatings? I thought ye people were against that sort of thing?

you see, coming out with that type of comment isn't helpfull to peoples perceptions.

That shows a stunning ignorance of Republican structure and relations. The RIRA absolutely despise the provos and any IRA Volunteer or Sinn Féin member who was seen to be consorting with them would have a lot of questions to answer. The two groups are not only entirely seperate but entirely opposed to each other.

yeah right :rolleyes:

Tuars

I've always found the choreographing aspect of the peace process a little bit dubious, i.e. the "we'll read this agreed statement after you read that agreed statement, then the two governments will read this agreed joint statement" etc. but I felt it was probably necessary to drag the grassroots of each side along. I always wondered how the grassroots felt about being patronised in this way. Now I think I now.

With the statement from Hugh Orde and the follow up media interviews from the Taoiseach and the British prime minister I think it is us, the general population, who are the victims of a bit of choreography. The governments are concerned about the rise of Sinn Fein's popularity and seem to be trying to put a spanner in the works. They also know they're at a dead end with the peace process, trying to get Sinn Fein and the DUP to agree. They need a distraction.

I don't know who is responsible for the bank robbery (and I'm guessing the PSNI are coming up a bit short too) but I think it's an audacious bit of opportunism to drag it into the political domain as it has been.

My main concern relates to the perception of the PSNI as an objective, politically detached organisation. I think that their handling of this affair puts it in doubt and will have long term implications at least as far reaching as if the IRA is proved to be responsible for the robbery.

The PSNI are (supposed to be) accountable to the people. However much we wish it otherwise the IRA are accountable to no-one but themselves.

The things we can control we should do right instead of just fantasising about trying to control the actions of people who are outside our control.

TomF

I was at the grocery store early this morning and caught a glimpse of the Examiner's headline that Bertie says Sinn Fein knew about plans for the bank robbery.

If this revelation were not coming from he who was once said to be the most cunning, the most devious of them all, I would have been inclined to read-on. However, with elections not that far away, and with Sinn Fein cutting into Fianna Fail's numbers I just yawned and pushed my convenience cart toward the bread section.

jbkenn

TomF wrote:

I was at the grocery store early this morning and caught a glimpse of the Examiner's headline that Bertie says Sinn Fein knew about plans for the bank robbery.

If this revelation were not coming from he who was once said to be the most cunning, the most devious of them all, I would have been inclined to read-on.

Perhaps you should have "read-on"

However, with elections not that far away, and with Sinn Fein cutting into Fianna Fail's numbers I just yawned and pushed my convenience cart toward the bread section.

On radio yesterday, he stated the Government plans to run to full term, and the next Dail election will be 2007.

jbkenn

Tuars

Tuars wrote:

choreography The governments are concerned about the rise of Sinn Fein's popularity and seem to be trying to put a spanner in the works. They also know they're at a dead end with the peace process, trying to get Sinn Fein and the DUP to agree. They need a distraction.

With respect I disagree,I doubt Bertie got on the phone to Orde and said, Can ya do me a favour I have elections coming up in two and a half years...

The things we can control we should do right instead of just fantasising about trying to control the actions of people who are outside our control.

Well the best way to control law breakers is to apply the law to them.
If a gang is caught for this robbery, and if they are republicans, of course they are going to deny that they are the IRA, thats to be expected and handy.
[cynical but probably right] Shur isn't that why the organisation split anyway, a case of lads hey we cant do that at the moment 'cause it will look bad for SF, but shur ye do it and call it for the Real IRA - use the stuff under that bush there...[/Cynical but probably right]

Villain

Earthman wrote:

[cynical but probably right] Shur isn't that why the organisation split anyway, a case of lads hey we cant do that at the moment 'cause it will look bad for SF, but shur ye do it and call it for the Real IRA - use the stuff under that bush there...[/Cynical but probably right]

You really should educate yourself about the organisations up North before you post crap like that.

Bertie has killed the peace process dead, by claiming that Adams and McGuniess knew about the plans to rob the bank. That is complete bullsh*t and if he thinks that, he should sack whoever is giving him that intelligence.

Bertie is more concerned in recovering votes from SF than the peace process.

A Dub in Glasgo

Earthman wrote:

[cynical but probably right] Shur isn't that why the organisation split anyway, a case of lads hey we cant do that at the moment 'cause it will look bad for SF, but shur ye do it and call it for the Real IRA - use the stuff under that bush there...[/Cynical but probably right]

Cynical - Yes

Probably right - No

If you knew anything about the Republican Movement, you would not have posted such nonsense.

ionapaul

No fan of Bertie here, but I would have thought that his work over the course of his lifetime for peace slightly outweighs Adams, McGuinness and the usual suspects.

Villain

ionapaul wrote:

No fan of Bertie here, but I would have thought that his work over the course of his lifetime for peace slightly outweighs Adams, McGuinness and the usual suspects.

I wouldn't think so!

A Dub in Glasgo

ionapaul wrote:

No fan of Bertie here, but I would have thought that his work over the course of his lifetime for peace slightly outweighs Adams, McGuinness and the usual suspects.

It is not quantity that matters, it is quality!

Even Albert Reynolds beats Bertie hands down

monument

ionapaul wrote:

No fan of Bertie here, but I would have thought that his work over the course of his lifetime for peace slightly outweighs Adams, McGuinness and the usual suspects.

Bertie? That a joke, right?

jbkenn

irish1 wrote:

Bertie has killed the peace process dead, by claiming that Adams and McGuniess knew about the plans to rob the bank. That is complete bullsh*t and if he thinks that, he should sack whoever is giving him that intelligence.
Bertie is more concerned in recovering votes from SF than the peace process.

Would you care to back that up, with something more than your personal opinion?.
He did not state That Mr. Adams or Mr. McGuinness had fore knowledge of the raid, he said "the leadership of Sinn Fein" did

jbkenn

Villain

jbkenn wrote:

He did not state That Mr. Adams or Mr. McGuinness had fore knowledge of the raid, he said "the leadership of Sinn Fein" did

jbkenn

LOL, Who do you think Adams and McGunness are?

They are the leadership of Sinn Fein :rolleyes:

*If you want to get technical McGuinness may be not be listed as one of the leaders, but Gerry Adams is the President i.e Leader*

ionapaul

monument wrote:

Bertie? That a joke, right?

Well, I was half joking!

Adams and McGuinness being hailed a paragons of peace-makers is akin to applauding a highwayman for retiring on a state pension and seeing his decision as a 'courageous move towards the pacification of our roads'! I'm happy they seems to be working towards peace more so than their predecessors - but they arn't exactly a bunch of Mother Theresas / Gandhis / whatever, are they?

ionapaul

To clarify that, as I said, I am no Bertie fan but believe he has shown he is a dedicated pacifist and cannot be compared to the other two mentioned in this regard. My (not funny) joke was that you could view his lifetime of being peaceful and lack of involvement in murder and criminality a strong indication of his peaceful intent.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

You really should educate yourself about the organisations up North before you post crap like that.

Really ? Why? It has as much validity as your statement that you know that the IRA and SF are not the same.
People think it.
Your problem is considerably more people think the IRA are involved in criminality than think SF and the IRA are not intertwined.

*If you want to get technical McGuinness may be not be listed as one of the leaders, but Gerry Adams is the President i.e Leader*

Well here again lies the problem for SF, as I said before it's all about perception.
Asking people to believe that Adams and McGuinness do not have a close enough relationship with the movers and shakers within the IRA or that they don't have enough background knowledge to know what they are up to is like asking a 15 year old to believe in Santa.
It just doesnt wash.

Some people will believe SF on this one but most wont.Shur Dammit I even read posters on a certain republican bulletin board bragging that only the IRA would be good enough to do it.

Now climb into the mind of Bertie who I'm sure wants to go down in history as someone at the heart of a final settlement in the North( He did turn down a easy much better paid job in the E.U) and ask yourself what a breach of faith he must think the robbery is.

A Dub in Glasgo

An article from the Sunday Herald casts doubt on the Provisional IRA being responsible for the robbery. It introduces a figure called 'The Striker'. Any Irish papers pick up on this? Interestingly, this person is a former member of the British Army.

Revealed: former British soldier known as ‘The Striker’ suspected of masterminding £26m robbery
By Neil Mackay, Investigations Editor


A MAVERICK international criminal with close connections to Irish republican terrorists is suspected of being one of the key brains behind the audacious £26 million bank robbery in Belfast which has been blamed on the IRA.

The English-born man in his early 30s is known as “The Striker”. During the Balkan wars of the early 1990s he fought in international brigades on the side of Croatia. He is of Irish descent and has also been connected with arms deals for the Real IRA.

His grandfather was one of the heroes of the 1916 Easter rising. Although The Striker has a long-standing association with the Provisional IRA, his current connections to the Real IRA have now confused theories about who was behind the December bank raid.

The Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) has categorically blamed the Provisional IRA. Sinn Fein, the political wing of the Provisional IRA, has denied the allegations.

The involvement of a Real IRA sympathiser would throw into doubt the involvement of the Provisionals. The Real IRA broke away from the Provisionals in 1997, refusing to be involved with the peace process or the republican ceasefire.

Sources close to both the IRA and the British security forces say that they believe The Striker was involved in the robbery, however they refused to comment on what his involvement would mean to allegations that the IRA carried out the heist.

One British intelligence source said that The Striker was “non-aligned” to any terrorist organisation, but that his skills were sought after by both the Provos and the Reals. The source added: “The Provos have called him in from time to time for ‘specialist jobs’.”

The Striker is seen as a hero by many Croatians for the part he played in the Balkan wars, where he served with Croatian paramilitaries. The Striker’s most infamous act came when he allegedly sprang from jail the notorious Croatian military commander, General Ante Gotovina. Gotovina is wanted by The Hague for war crimes.

The US government has put a £2.5 million bounty on him. After a stay in Sicily with the Mafia, rumours now abound that Gotovina has been helped by The Striker, along with Real IRA operatives, to reach Ireland.

The Striker is close to Italian mobsters, and was schooled by Valerio Viccei, the mastermind of the 1987 Knightsbridge safe deposit robbery which netted an estimated £62m.

The Striker has also been identified as one of the Real IRA’s key arms fixers in Croatia.

The Sunday Herald has previously exposed the huge gun-running operations by the Real IRA in Croatia, and revealed that a Croatian general, Ivan Andabak, was behind the multi-million pound arms deals.

Perhaps the most astonishing claim about The Striker’s activities is that it was he who fired a rocket-propelled grenade – smuggled in from Croatia – at MI6’s headquarters in London. The rocket attack was also a Real IRA operation.

The Striker is a former British soldier. British security sources say that capturing him is now one of the UK security services’ highest priorities.

The raid on Northern Bank, which The Striker is said to be behind, has thrown the brittle Ulster peace process into disarray. Chief constable Hugh Orde of the PSNI said on Friday that the IRA was behind the heist at the bank’s Belfast head office on December 20 when robbers netted £26.5m.

No arrests have so far been made and none of the money recovered, but a number of homes in republican areas have been raided as police investigate one of the biggest robberies in British history.

After Orde blamed the IRA, Downing Street said Prime Minister Tony Blair believed that the political institutions of Northern Ireland could only be restored once there was a “complete end” to all activity by para militaries, including criminal activity. Blair takes the allegations “extremely seriously”, Number 10 said.

Irish premier Bertie Ahern said that trust and confidence in the peace process had been damaged, adding: “An operation of this magnitude … has obviously been planned at a stage when I was in negotiations with those that would know the leadership of the Provisional movement.”

Martin Mc Guinness of Sinn Fein said Orde’s claims were “nothing but politically biased allegations”. The IRA has also strongly denied any involvement.

However, DUP leader the Rev Ian Paisley is to meet Blair this week to discuss the ramifications of IRA involvement. Paisley wants the government to create a devolved Ulster executive without Sinn Fein. He said republicans had now “done a deed that has put them outside the present political initiative”.

Ulster Unionist leader David Trimble said: “Gerry Adams [Sinn Fein leader] has betrayed the Prime Minister personally.” He called on Blair to exclude Sinn Fein from any Northern Ireland assembly.

Paul Murphy, the Northern Ireland secretary, now says that any deal to restore devolution is unrealistic until after the general election. Murphy said the IRA’s alleged involvement in the raid “offended the principles” of the Good Friday Agreement.

“It is very difficult to see where we go in the immediate future,” he said, adding that he believed there was “weighty evidence” of IRA involvement.

chewy

im afraid i havn't really been keeping up on the news or this thread or read much about the robbery in the days following, but I hanv't heard much talk of anything coming from the hostages who kept all day? in their houses?
surely they could give some clues to who carried out the robbery?

oscarBravo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

An article from the Sunday Herald casts doubt on the Provisional IRA being responsible for the robbery.

I'm sitting here waiting for republican posters to howl with outrage at this newspaper pointing the finger at this guy without a single shred of evidence. I mean, what's sauce for the goose, right?

One thing caught my attention:

One British intelligence source said that The Striker was “non-aligned” to any terrorist organisation, but that his skills were sought after by both the Provos and the Reals.

So much for the PIRA and RIRA having nothing in common. If there's that much hatred and mistrust between the two organisations, how come one is prepared to hire a mercenary that also works for the other?

smiaras

This post has been deleted.

Dyr

irish1 wrote:

LOL, Who do you think Adams and McGunness are?

They are the leadership of Sinn Fein :rolleyes:

*If you want to get technical McGuinness may be not be listed as one of the leaders, but Gerry Adams is the President i.e Leader*

I'm sure Bertie ( having being completely oblivious to all the carry on in his party thats being uncovered in the various tribunals) will appreciate that you can be at the highest level of a political party and not know whats actually going on in it

Interesting though, that so many people are willing to take the word Hugh Orde, someone who has previously shown himself quite willing to spoof the public and politicians when it would damage The Sinners.

Undoubtedly, its the same breed of people who, in the eighties, poured scorn on the idea that the birmingham six and guildford four might not be guilty, sure thats only provie propaganda :rolleyes:

Raskolnikov

There was a lad on Questions and Answers tonight who was suggesting that this operation could have been preformed by hardliners within the IRA. Hardliners who disagree with Adams and would have reservations (to put it mildly) about decomissioning. If the robbery was preformed by members of the IRA, then it'd surely have been without the knowledge of the Sinn Féin leadership.

true

First of all, smiaris, where was the article you claim you read which mentioned that "the protestors who broke in to the house of commons are apparently disillusioned SAS members "? Its a bit early for April 1st , so link / proof please, as its very hard to believe.

As regards Bambis opinions, he is of course entitled to them. However , Bambi makes the point that the leader of a political party ( eg Bertie ) "may not know whats actually going on in it". Perhaps, but in all poloitical parties in these island there is only one whose members have got caught up in so much illegial activity eg entering FARC controlled areas on Columbia on false passport, past bank robberies ( I am not talking about the Northern bank 2004 ), protection rackets, cigarette smuggling etc.


Bambi says "Interesting though, that so many people are willing to take the word Hugh Orde, someone who has previously shown himself quite willing to spoof the public and politicians when it would damage The Sinners. Undoubtedly, its the same breed of people who, in the eighties, poured scorn on the idea that the birmingham six and guildford four might not be guilty, sure thats only provie propaganda "

Hugh Orde, in fairness, did not have a record of "spoofing the public and politicians" ?
Explain. As for the comment re " the same breed of people ", these come from every politial party in these islands except Sinn Fein. Everyone else is wrong?

FTA69

true wrote:

By any chance, are you in the IRA , FTA69 ?

No, considering I was 7 when the Cessation was declared I'm a bit young for that sort of thing.

FTA69

Earthman wrote:

you see, coming out with that type of comment isn't helpfull to peoples perceptions.

It's a fair question though earthman, one which you have failed to answer. You have stated that the onus is on the Republican Movement to deliver "an ultimatum to the RIRA", again, what can we do about them?

yeah right

Perhaps you might want to familiarise yourself with the IRA Convention of 1997 out of which the RIRA was founded by members who vociferously opposed the Army leadership. Are you seriously saying that people who stormed out of the organisation in hostile circumstances, possibly stole weapons (an activity frowned upon to say the least) and set up a rival organisation are going to be in the good books of the IRA?

Look at any of the 32 County Soveriegnty Committee press releases regarding the Republican Movement and draw your own conclusions, look at the sheer hostility between members of these groups on the ground. However, considering you have no experience with Republicanism I don't expect you to draw an intelligent conclusion. That isn't an insult earthman, it is simply a statement of fact.

mad_martian

FTA69 wrote:

No, considering I was 7 when the Cessation was declared I'm a bit young for that sort of thing.

Excellent !! What about SF Youth.........

Slightly off topic - just saw programme on BBC4 about Emmiline Pankhurst, apparently when suffragettes and labour supporters and home-rulers were getting together to piss off government pre-WW1, the government decided to use anti-german propaganda to unite everyone against common enemy -mmmmmmmmmmmmm history repeats itself don't you think.......?
"the germans are raping nuns in nice catholic belgium"
"the provies are robbing banks"

AmenToThat

Raskolnikov wrote:

There was a lad on Questions and Answers tonight who was suggesting that this operation could have been preformed by hardliners within the IRA. Hardliners who disagree with Adams and would have reservations (to put it mildly) about decomissioning. If the robbery was preformed by members of the IRA, then it'd surely have been without the knowledge of the Sinn Féin leadership.

There are many within the Republican movement who are very dissilusioned with the politics of Adams/McGuinness as they believe they have already sold to many of the Republican principles/ideals downt he river.

Now lets say it was a unit of the Provos based in west Belfast for example who hold this view and have decided that they might as well get rich seeing as thier lifes struggle has been in vain (in their view).
What then?

Id like to know exactly what they expect Adams/McGuinness to do about it?

Say they (Adams/McGuinness) tell them to give back the money and say sorry but the unit in question so no!
Do they (Adams/McGuinness) threaten to shop their comrades to the police service and sentence themselves to death as traitors in which case the IRA splinters even further, the peace process is completely ****ed anyways and their legacy in history will be as sniches.

Do they tell that unit to stand down?
Assuming they do and that particular unit decide not to, what then?
Bring the unit out and kneecap them?
But hold on a minute.............wouldnt that be a violation of the good friday agreement?

Who would carry out this 'standing down' order in any case?
Do people think other IRA units are going to physically attack this unit because the head of the RUC/PSNI said they robbed a bank so that Gerry Adams can drink tea in Stormont with 'the rev'?

Iv read all the pages on this thread and Iv yet to see anyone who believes that the provos are guilty explain how this can resolved.
Well in terms that could actually work in the real world anyways.

mad_martian

two things
1.NI politics is not real world
2.why does it have to be "resolved" over this issue - banks get robbed every day, no-one was hurt, no individuals lost their money......its not that serious compared to other events in the past.........there have been plenty of other issues (all mentioned in prev posts) that have not been resolved..........and the process continued after a fashion.
The overwhelming will of voters on both sides, most politicians, civil servants and business leaders are happy enough with the(IRA)cessation to allow progress to continue. This issue will be nothing more than wiggle room for SF vs DUP on the next set of negotiations. Todays headlines tomorrows chip paper.....

true

FTA69, you leave us a little confused. You implied a number of posts ago you are in the IRA, now you say you are not. Fair enough, I believe you. Then in the last post you do "not expect Earthman ( or someone ) to draw an intelligent conclusion, as he has no experience with Republicanism." With all due respect, it seems that you think that the rest of us cannot draw an intelligent conclusion unless we have experience with Republicanism ? Perhaps any conclusion you do not agree with is not an intelligent conclusion in your eyes ?

FTA69, you said you were seven when the cessation was declared, so you could not remember most of the atrocities during the troubles. As you proclaim to be from " Free West Waterford ", I find it extraordinary how teenager like you can give such a one side version of the northern problem with such authority. Most of the rest of us on this board, I am sure, are considerably older and more experienced, and many of us I suspect live closer to the border than you do. Can you please enlighten us, where did you get most of your northern political opinions from? Was it school, was it certain newspapers, was it meeting people from Northern Ireland ( if so, did you meet a broad spectrum of people )?

mad_martian

what makes you qualified to post then TRUE? If FTA69 has to submit a cv where is yours? From where I am sitting FTA69 has put his views across with a degree of maturity............