IRA and the Nothern Bank Robbery

Nuttzz

irish1 wrote:

Come on, they could show the evidence without revealing the source, IMHO the PSNI are working off a hunch.

If they dont reveal the source, gerry and martin would come out of the meeting and say "well we saw what they claimed is evdience but they wont prove that the source is accurate" etc etc,

Mighty_Mouse

Does the peace process not effectivel = the GFA?

If so, it doesnt matter whether they did it or not. They are not covered by the agreement, so put them in Jail and move on!

That of course is IF they did it?

But sure what does it matter.?Hugh Orde is happy as the damage is done regardless. Whats the evidence? or should I say "strong evidence". Surely this evidence could help the public catch the robbers? Anyways what sort of evidence could suggest strongly that the IRA did it. Had they got IRA tee-shirts and celtic jerseys on? Did they leave a note? Or at the very least do we have a policeman somewhere who can identify them as IRA men?

And this is the police force people want nationalists to join enmasse? Give me a break. Even if he went about it in an open and honest manner and convicted the men fairly but what court in the land would find them innocent at this stage! He's turned the idea of innocent until guilty into a complete joke. And thats before even being charged!

Villain

Ah now come on, surely they must have more evidence other than hearsay.

Mighty_Mouse

And they are angry that the IRA’s activities have played into the hands of the DUP and made it even harder to get all of the Agreement implemented

As for the SDLP quote!!! Usual "bugger me nicely" statement!

For those with a memory thats not longer than 1 effin week, please note in your diaries very quickly that the DUP hadn't any notion of shared government before the robbery!

Oh! Let me guess....now its the IRA who ****ed it up!(by being accused) Lord, thats accurate history allright!

only for those IRA men we could of had history! my arse, if the SDLP had of been negotiating we'd have a DUP led government with the whole SDLP part representing forestry or something. The SDLP, my god, the only political party in the world afraid of three little words: "Thats not acceptable"!!!!!!!!!!

Villain

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Does the peace process not effectivel = the GFA?

If so, it doesnt matter whether they did it or not. They are not covered by the agreement, so put them in Jail and move on!

Might_Mouse you must see that if they did do it, then SF has lost all credibility, the GFA may not spell out criminality but if it was proven (can't see it happening as I believe the IRA didn't do it) that this robbery was carried out by IRA members and it was sanctioned by the IRA leadership then it shows that the IRA are active and the Unionists will never sign up to an agreement while the IRA still poccess weapons and are active.

Mighty_Mouse

Might_Mouse you must see that if they did do it, then SF has lost all credibility

How? Even if they did do it, Why would the IRA want to rob banks in a society where theres a functioning democracy?

SF can only provided windows of opportunity within in which a democracy must be achieved. How can SF promise that Republicans wont return to arms ever in the absence of a democractic right to pursue a united ireland? Whats the option.

Even if they werent accused of the robbery, how long would it take for Republicans to return to arms 10 years - 20 years in the absence of a right to democratly pursue a united ireland? (note its not a unique notion i'm on about here).

Again what exactly are you looking the political wing of republicanism to do here? In my opinion all SF can ever do is convince republicans that politics is a way forward. When its not..............

Villain

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Again what exactly are you looking the political wing of republicanism to do here? In my opinion all SF can ever do is convince republicans that politics is a way forward. When its not..............

Then SF shouldn't be promising things it can't do, i.e. a total censation of all activities. No-one can blaim SF in ten years if Republicans break away from the paece process but at this crucial stage, the IRA has to be commited to peace, otherwise SF will never get into a power sharing government.

oscarBravo

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

How? Even if they did do it, Why would the IRA want to rob banks in a society where theres a functioning democracy?

What was that about short memories? Does the word "Adare" ring any bells?

Or do you believe that the Republic of Ireland is not a functioning democracy?

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

how long would it take for Republicans to return to arms 10 years - 20 years in the absence of a right to democratly pursue a united ireland?

That right is not absent. Sinn Féin have several TDs and MPs with that mandate (among others). It's their continued association with an organisation that pursues that objective by undemocratic means that's the problem.

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Again what exactly are you looking the political wing of republicanism to do here? In my opinion all SF can ever do is convince republicans that politics is a way forward. When its not..............

Right-thinking people shouldn't need to be convinced that politics is a way forward. The belief that a united Ireland is important enough to kill people for is - I'm sorry - demented.

Nuttzz

irish1 wrote:

Ah now come on, surely they must have more evidence other than hearsay.

Are the supergrasses before your time?

irish1

irish1 wrote:

Your really not taking it in are you.

If an PIRA member was found to be a member of either the CIRA or the RIRA they would be excluded very quickly. Try and understand this, the PIRA completely destest the other organisations, simalar to the way the Loyalist groups hate each, fortunately the republican haven't reverted to shooting each other in the same way the Loyalist have. But then again they were fighting over control of drug areas, because their in that business as where the IRA thankfully aren't.

Can you guarantee that for me?
Thats what I asked.
No one can publically declare( and certainly not you I hope given your frequent renouncements of violence here )that they are privy to the inner goings on in these organisations or they could be arrested for membership.
So you cant really,you see therefore Its not as re assuring as you think it is, nor does it disassociate Republican criminality in a lot of peoples minds from Sinn Féin.
The thing is, many Sinn Féin members and certainly IRA members know who is involved in criminality and to be frank it would bode well for SF politically if they shopped them to the Gardaí.
Untill that happens, it's always going to be there as SF's millstone.

Cork

oscarBravo wrote:

What was that about short memories? Does the word "Adare" ring any bells?

Or do you believe that the Republic of Ireland is not a functioning democracy? That right is not absent. Sinn Féin have several TDs and MPs with that mandate (among others). It's their continued association with an organisation that pursues that objective by undemocratic means that's the problem. Right-thinking people shouldn't need to be convinced that politics is a way forward. The belief that a united Ireland is important enough to kill people for is - I'm sorry - demented.

The Adare raid was also denied by the IRA. Yet they eventually claimed responsibility and the SF party lobbied for thir early release.

But Oscar Bravo - You raise an interesting question - Do SF accept the institutions of this state?

They see the IRA as a legitimate army. But this state recognises one army and that is not the idiot IRA.

This state sees the ira as an illegal group that is actively involved in criminality - punishment beatings & racketeering.

I think there should be no reasons why SF should participate in democratic institutions so long as they maintain their links to the IRA.

Trust must be built between communities in NI. I think a period in the wildnerness is in store for SF untill it rules out IRA criminality and gets the IRA to decomission.

freedom's jcb

you would think the british and irish goverment would be happy having contained republicanism.sinn fein have almost thrown away all their republican principles with accepting a northern assembly etc and sinn fein have done their best to dismantle the ira for their own political ends while 13,500 british army troops plague our country,remilitarisation on the border and you people still want sinn fein to lie down even further,the very fact that there is more british troops here than at the worst of the fighting in iraq is an even sadder fact.im an pira supporter and while i dont see the point in resuming the armed struggle yet i resent the fact the sinn fein leadership have interfered with the army and have supported british demands to seek total decommissioning regardless of photo's.
as far as the robbery is concerned if it was the provos and it probably was the only reason i can think of it being allowed to happen was to prevent a split in the pira because the volunteers on the ground wouldnt be happy at what sinn fein has or hasnt said about decommissioning and i knew this sort of thing was inevitable because people believe like myself while the british troops and helicopters remain in our land the guns should stay where they are and not handed over to appease loyalists or the brits.

true

LOL. This raises three questions.
(a) Who is your history teacher?
(b) Who is your english teacher?
(c) Should you not be going to bed soon if you have to get up for school tomorrow?

A Dub in Glasgo

Cork wrote:

The Adare raid was also denied by the IRA. Yet they eventually claimed responsibility and the SF party lobbied for thir early release.

You raise an interesting question about the Adare incident and the robbery incident and it seems to affect the same people here.

Adare: The IRA deny that it carried out the attack. After a short while, the IRA then claim the incident

Many on here do not believe that the IRA was involved and have only claimed because it may do their ex buddies a good turn. In order for their argument to hold, they have to believe that the IRA did not do Adare. They say it was the individuals acting for selfish motives therefore they should not get released.

NIB Robbery: The IRA deny that it carried out the robbery

Many on here do not believe them. In order for their argument to hold, they need the IRA to be responsible and it cannot be individuals acting for selfish motives.

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Many on here do not believe that the IRA was involved and have only claimed because it may do their ex buddies a good turn. In order for their argument to hold, they have to believe that the IRA did not do Adare. They say it was the individuals acting for selfish motives therefore they should not get released.

NIB Robbery: The IRA deny that it carried out the robbery

Many on here do not believe them. In order for their argument to hold, they need the IRA to be responsible and it cannot be individuals acting for selfish motives.

No I think you have it wrong there.
What people believe to be the case and what the IRA say and do to suit the situation are two different and separate things.

Theres no inconsistency from posters there at all.

oscarBravo

freedom's jcb wrote:

im an pira supporter

The PIRA is a treasonous and seditious armed group. Expressing support could reasonably be seen as treasonous and seditious.

freedom's jcb wrote:

and while i dont see the point in resuming the armed struggle yet

That's the kind of attitude that worries the hell out of me. What you've said, in effect, is that you can foresee a time in the future when there would be a point in resuming the "armed struggle". That means that you can imagine a set of circumstances where you'd support an illegal organisation that kills people for political ends.

I'll say it again: that's just demented.

freedom's jcb wrote:

i resent the fact the sinn fein leadership have interfered with the army

What army? The British army? The Irish Army?

freedom's jcb wrote:

as far as the robbery is concerned if it was the provos and it probably was

You're going to have to produce evidence to support that allegation, you know.

freedom's jcb wrote:

the only reason i can think of it being allowed to happen was to prevent a split in the pira because the volunteers on the ground wouldnt be happy at what sinn fein has or hasnt said about decommissioning

"Bloody Sinn Féin. I know, let's rob a bank."

Um. Huh?

freedom's jcb wrote:

and i knew this sort of thing was inevitable because people believe like myself while the british troops and helicopters remain in our land the guns should stay where they are and not handed over to appease loyalists or the brits.

There are British troops and helicopters in Monaghan?

A Dub in Glasgo

oscarBravo wrote:

The PIRA is a treasonous and seditious armed group. Expressing support could reasonably be seen as treasonous and seditious.

Reasonably?? I don't think so. Lock up people for their opinions, it is the only reasonable thing to do!!

Zombrex

freedom's jcb wrote:

you would think the british and irish goverment would be happy having contained republicanism.sinn fein have almost thrown away all their republican principles with accepting a northern assembly etc and sinn fein have done their best to dismantle the ira for their own political ends while 13,500 british army troops plague our country,remilitarisation on the border and you people still want sinn fein to lie down even further,the very fact that there is more british troops here than at the worst of the fighting in iraq is an even sadder fact.im an pira supporter and while i dont see the point in resuming the armed struggle yet i resent the fact the sinn fein leadership have interfered with the army and have supported british demands to seek total decommissioning regardless of photo's.
as far as the robbery is concerned if it was the provos and it probably was the only reason i can think of it being allowed to happen was to prevent a split in the pira because the volunteers on the ground wouldnt be happy at what sinn fein has or hasnt said about decommissioning and i knew this sort of thing was inevitable because people believe like myself while the british troops and helicopters remain in our land the guns should stay where they are and not handed over to appease loyalists or the brits.

Why? what exactly are the IRA going to do with the guns? Go back to being terrorists? Because lets face it, that is what they are. All that "the IRA defend Catholics" is b*ll****. They are a terrorist organisation in that they attempt to infullence political events by inspiring terror in their political oppents.

Sinn Finn are trying to get into power and change things peacefully (I am not in anyway a Sinn Fein supporter) so why would you pick the IRA blowing up pubs and killing taxi drivers while not actually achieving anything over Sinn Fein getting real power for Catholics? It is beyond me.

freedom's jcb

an illegal organisation that kills people for political ends.

so do you think its ok for the british army to kill people for political ends because they are "legal"

You're going to have to produce evidence to support that allegation, you know.

if you had read that bit in my post correctly you'll see i wrote "if" i was only expressing my own opinion and i never made any allegation.

There are British troops and helicopters in Monaghan?

again when i said our land i meant ireland as a whole although british troops quite frequently have made illegal border incursions into the south of ireland.

defending the catholic people is secondary to the first goal of a united ireland because as far as im concerned protestants in the north are just as irish as the catholics and its the british army and their military machine that has to be defeated.people dont seem to realise that armed republican groups wont go away while the british remain on this island and if the ira did carry out this robbery to please the hardliners to protect the ceasefire then isnt it better than an ira split?i have never regarded the ira as terrorists because you only have to look at the track record of the british army with such killings as bloody sunday,loughgall and all the collusion between the loyalists to realise who the real terrorists are?

rubberduckey

"i have never regarded the ira as terrorists"

Freedoms jcb, is this your honest opinion?

oscarBravo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Reasonably?? I don't think so. Lock up people for their opinions, it is the only reasonable thing to do!!

Depends on the opinion, doesn't it?

freedom's jcb wrote:

so do you think its ok for the british army to kill people for political ends because they are "legal"

I don't think it's ok for anyone to kill anyone for political ends.

freedom's jcb wrote:

if you had read that bit in my post correctly you'll see i wrote "if" i was only expressing my own opinion and i never made any allegation.

What you actually said was:

if it was the provos and it probably was

Looks like an allegation to me.

freedom's jcb wrote:

again when i said our land i meant ireland as a whole

See, that's where you're making the same old tired mistake again: Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, and therefore the army of the United Kingdom has every right to be there. I don't know how to make that any simpler.

As for border excursions, those are a matter for the sovereign governments of the two countries in question.

freedom's jcb wrote:

defending the catholic people is secondary to the first goal of a united ireland because as far as im concerned protestants in the north are just as irish as the catholics and its the british army and their military machine that has to be defeated.

Have you discussed this point of view with any protestants in the north? They might have a different perspective on things.

freedom's jcb wrote:

people dont seem to realise that armed republican groups wont go away while the british remain on this island

...and armed loyalist groups won't go away while there are armed republican groups, and the army won't go away while there are terrorists of all colours... give 'er another spin and away she goes again.

freedom's jcb wrote:

if the ira did carry out this robbery to please the hardliners to protect the ceasefire then isnt it better than an ira split?

It's a funny point of view. Consider this: if all the armed groups in the North started talking to each other to work out their differences, and everyone had to compromise their principles in some way, then isn't that better than any more human beings being killed?

freedom's jcb wrote:

i have never regarded the ira as terrorists because you only have to look at the track record of the british army with such killings as bloody sunday,loughgall and all the collusion between the loyalists to realise who the real terrorists are?

By that logic, if I were to beat up my wife, but she came from a family of wife-beaters, I'm not a wife-beater? A rose by any other name...

I honestly am completely baffled by the willingness of young people (and I assume the JCB here is another teenager) to condone murder and violence with such idiotic arguments as (in effect) "they started it".

rubberduckey

I'm with OscarBravo on this one.

A Dub in Glasgo

oscarBravo wrote:

Depends on the opinion, doesn't it? .

You tell me, you stated that someone who expresses support for the IRA can be reasonably seen to be treasonous and seditious.

I challenged the 'reasonably' bit

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You tell me, you stated that someone who expresses support for the IRA can be reasonably seen to be treasonous and seditious.

I challenged the 'reasonably' bit

Well you see,you would be supporting an organisation whose aim is the subversion of the democratic will of the people of the state.
That would defacto be treasonous and seditious.

Raskolnikov

As an aside, there were police on the carriages of the Belfast-Dublin train yesterday. Must have something to do with the bank robbery since I've never seen it before.

true

I wonder where "Freedoms JCB " gets his extreme ideas from? I think it is very sad to see someone ( probably a teenager ? ) brainwashed so much, and with so much hatred in his heart. Given the propoganda many history teachers are spouting out ( the famine, the auld enemy, the great "heroes" of 1916 etc ) , and given RTE's republican bias, perhaps it is not surprising.

Reading Freedoms JCB piece about the "frequent illegial British army border incursions in to the south of Ireland" , an observer unfamilar with the situation eg Noraid may imagine the situation different to the reality. These incursion were infrequent and usually consisted of half a dozen soldiers making a map reading error and going a few hundred yards too far south. Unlike IRA excursions in to the North , there was little or no harm intended.

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

I wonder where "Freedoms JCB " gets his extreme ideas from? I think it is very sad to see someone ( probably a teenager ? ) brainwashed so much, and with so much hatred in his heart. Given the propoganda many history teachers are spouting out ( the famine, the auld enemy, the great "heroes" of 1916 etc ) , and given RTE's republican bias, perhaps it is not surprising.

Oh dear, here we go again, 'true' denigrating the independence of this country (=Ireland). I think ours is the only country where a proportion of the current population are hostile to their independence... Unbelievable.

Reading Freedoms JCB piece about the "frequent illegial British army border incursions in to the south of Ireland" , an observer unfamilar with the situation eg Noraid may imagine the situation different to the reality. These incursion were infrequent and usually consisted of half a dozen soldiers making a map reading error and going a few hundred yards too far south. Unlike IRA excursions in to the North , there was little or no harm intended.

They may have been relatively infrequent but to say that they were a result of map reading errors is naive in the extreme. Some of the incursions resulted in abductions and murder by the British forces. I suppose it is no harm when the person killed or abducted is a republican eh?

freedom's jcb

you can call me a teenager all you want but it doesnt mean ill respond to it because i dont have to justify myself here to staunch anti republicans who have tried to taunt and provoke me just because ive given my opinion and its not just myself who thinks that way.your entitled to your opinion and ill read your opinions but if you think calling me a teenager can show people that your right because im in my 20's well its a bit sad really.my "extreme ideas" as you say have come around through the events that have happened in the 6 counties and i firmly believe that there wont be a proper fair solution in the north until the british withdraw because unionists believe to demilitarise and to give the people in the north a fair non political,non-sectarian police force is a concession and will always run to the british goverment to get their own way regardless of the nationalist parties or their electorate,its just another reason why there should be a fair agreement that actually gives the republican commuinity something which is not the case with the gfa which as most republicans who have become dissillusioned with the political process regard it as the got.**** all agreement.

true

Quote by Dub in Glasgow : "lOh dear, here we go again, 'true' denigrating the independence of this country (=Ireland). I think ours is the only country where a proportion of the current population are hostile to their independence... Unbelievable."


When did I denigrate the current independence of this country (=Ireland)? NEVER
So do not accuse me of it please. I am not hostile to our independence, but I am hostile to the IRA. And there is a huge difference, Dub in Glasgow.

As regards Freedoms JCB, you claim your ideas have come around through events that have happened in the six counties. How come most of the population would not agree with you? You say you are an IRA supporter : that is nothing to be proud of. Did you ever see the result of a bombing, see the widow of a person thats been killed, look at orphans, see people without legs?

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

When did I denigrate the current independence of this country (=Ireland)? NEVER
So do not accuse me of it please. I am not hostile to our independence, but I am hostile to the IRA. And there is a huge difference, Dub in Glasgow.

The IRA won our independence!!

You call the history of Ireland propaganda and people who believe a certain view of Irish history brainwashed. You also put inverted commas in the word heroes when describing the 1916 Rising.

Yep, you certainly sound as if you are not hostile to our independence.

Did you ever see the result of a bombing, see the widow of a person thats been killed, look at orphans, see people without legs?

Have you? We can all point to selective emotional scenes.

Have you ever spoken to the parents of a child killed by the British Army/Police and the people who killed your child are laughing at you everyday. They will not be charged, they will not face the justice system, they are still in the Army or Police? Have you seen what a plastic bullet can do to the face of a child? Have you seen what rifle bullets can do to teenagers? have you seen your father being beaten to a pulp by the police and then he is charged with assaulting police officiers?

A lot of people seem to reconcile their abhorrance of violence when it comes to killing the tens of thousands of civilians in other conflicts. Why is that?