IRA and the Nothern Bank Robbery

freedom's jcb

its quite sad that certain people forget the hardship and all the struggle irish men have suffered for partial independence because they abused and taken for granted the freedom these men have won for us and they are quite happy to criminalise the republican movement so long as they are free.

We can all point to selective emotional scenes

well i could point out several scenes of murder by the british army/sas/ruc on the volunteers of the ira like in loughgall when the sas fired over 600 rounds and every fallen volunteer had several bullet wounds with one placed in the head to finish them off or the massacre of the 3 unarmed volunteers in gibraltar but i suppose you couldnt careless about the ira and you would regard it as a job well done but look at the british army's murder of civilians like bloody sunday,collusion, the 15 year old girl shot dead by lee clegg and his reinstatement into the army and look at britain record overseas especially in iraq dropping bombs on cities while they have no proper justification for doing so?i personally deeply regret any civilian death in the struggle,everyone should either loyalist or republican but i will always be proud to support the ira whether in peace or in war until the british leave and let the irish people sort out our own problems.

sceptre

freedom's jcb wrote:

partial independence

You can call it "independence of part of the island" if you like as that would be factually correct but referring to it as "partial independence" is completely incorrect.

Now, note to all - get back talking about the robbery, the possible/probable involvement of the IRA (or why they were right or wrong to go bank robbin' if you like assuming they were involved) and/or how this will affect the process in place or I'll regard the thread as gone irrevocably off topic. I couldn't really care less in this thread if you're a supporter of the IRA[P], the other flavas, Man United or Girls Aloud.

MrPudding

freedom's jcb wrote:

well i could point out several scenes of murder by the british army/sas/ruc on the volunteers of the ira like in loughgall when the sas fired over 600 rounds and every fallen volunteer had several bullet wounds with one placed in the head to finish them off or the massacre of the 3 unarmed volunteers in gibraltar

Tough sh1t. Boy those SAS boys are keen. Bloody Sunday is one thing, a disgrace. Gibraltar for me is borderline but I won't lose any sleep over it.

As for Loughgall they got what they deserved. You want to fight a war be prepared to die. You can't just have the "romantic" side. Look at me I am a "freedom fighter / terrorist" I should be allowed to kill people cos I am fighting a war. It works both ways. Those fcukers were on there way to plant a rather large bomb, they got what they deserved.

MrP

A Dub in Glasgo

MrPudding wrote:

Tough sh1t. Boy those SAS boys are keen. Bloody Sunday is one thing, a disgrace. Gibraltar for me is borderline but I won't lose any sleep over it.

As for Loughgall they got what they deserved. You want to fight a war be prepared to die. You can't just have the "romantic" side. Look at me I am a "freedom fighter / terrorist" I should be allowed to kill people cos I am fighting a war. It works both ways. Those fcukers were on there way to plant a rather large bomb, they got what they deserved.

MrP

In a conflict, both sides kill and both sides die.

In Loughall, the state knew of the attack weeks before, staked out the scene with huge numbers then waited for the IRA to arrive. They then killed everyone in the 'killing zone' including an innocent man and seriously injured another innocent man. No charges were ever brought against anybody for any of the deaths.

The IRA have killed plenty of soldiers by ambushing them. The difference? The IRA action is illegal and if they are caught they will be done for murder. The ambush at Loughall was apparantly legal

---

Anyone have any idea if charges are to be brought against anyone for the bank robbery?

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The IRA have killed plenty of soldiers by ambushing them. The difference? The IRA action is illegal and if they are caught they will be done for murder. The ambush at Loughall was apparantly legal

To be honest with you, the carry on at Loughgall,Gibraltar etc was way out of line,it was indicative of a policy of a government running out of patience but just as out of line as blowing innocent kids to bits in Warrington or innocent people commemorating the dead of two world wars(like many world wide) in Enniskillen.

There is a subtle distiction though, armies of democratic countries are accountable to the extent that their government must face an electorate.
The IRA during their campaign had way over 90% of the island of Ireland totally opposed to what they were doing.
SF certainly wouldnt have been electing T.D's in the 26 counties if the IRA were bombing and shooting now.

oscarBravo

God, it's hard to respond to someone who refuses to write in sentences. Here goes:

freedom's jcb wrote:

you can call me a teenager all you want but it doesnt mean ill respond to it because i dont have to justify myself here to staunch anti republicans who have tried to taunt and provoke me just because ive given my opinion and its not just myself who thinks that way. your entitled to your opinion and ill read your opinions but if you think calling me a teenager can show people that your right because im in my 20's well its a bit sad really.

I'm not trying to taunt or provoke anyone - just debating. Granted, I was a little hasty in suggesting you were a teenager (although your writing style strongly suggests it - unlike FTA69 who is delightfully literate) but I didn't mean any offence by it. If any was caused, I apologise.

freedom's jcb wrote:

my "extreme ideas" as you say have come around through the events that have happened in the 6 counties and i firmly believe that there wont be a proper fair solution in the north until the british withdraw because unionists believe to demilitarise and to give the people in the north a fair non political,non-sectarian police force is a concession and will always run to the british goverment to get their own way regardless of the nationalist parties or their electorate

Sentences, dude, sentences. The question is: why don't the nationalists run to the British government? If they want a non-sectarian police force, why not join it en masse to redress the imbalances? Why would anyone believe that it's a better idea to kill people than to work hard for a solution?

freedom's jcb wrote:

its just another reason why there should be a fair agreement that actually gives the republican commuinity something which is not the case with the gfa which as most republicans who have become dissillusioned with the political process regard it as the got.**** all agreement.

It's interesting to look at the reaction of various groups to the Agreement: hardline republicans see it as a total sellout, with nothing in it for them. Moderate nationalists feel there are some tough pills to swallow, but feel they can live with it. Moderate unionists feel there are some tough pills to swallow, but feel they can live with it. Hardline loyalists see it as a total sellout, with nothing in it for them.

Sounds to me like the nearest thing possible to a perfect compromise.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The IRA won our independence!!

The PIRA?

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

We can all point to selective emotional scenes.

We certainly can. Someone very near and dear to me put his life on the line many times, defending ordinary decent people from republican scumbags who would have shot him without batting an eyelid. We all have our scars. How we deal with them is another story.

freedom's jcb wrote:

its quite sad that certain people forget the hardship and all the struggle irish men have suffered for partial independence because they abused and taken for granted the freedom these men have won for us and they are quite happy to criminalise the republican movement so long as they are free.

"Partial independence"? I live in a fully independent country. I don't recall that the PIRA played any part in the achievement of that independence.

freedom's jcb wrote:

well i could point out several scenes of murder by the british army/sas/ruc on the volunteers of the ira like in loughgall when the sas fired over 600 rounds and every fallen volunteer had several bullet wounds with one placed in the head to finish them off or the massacre of the 3 unarmed volunteers in gibraltar but i suppose you couldnt careless about the ira and you would regard it as a job well done

I don't agree with killing; I think I've made that clear.

That said, here's a little suggestion: if you don't want to be killed by the British army, a useful first step might be not being a member of an armed organisation that targets that army.

freedom's jcb wrote:

but look at the british army's murder of civilians like bloody sunday,collusion, the 15 year old girl shot dead by lee clegg and his reinstatement into the army

And you think killing more people is going to make it all OK?

freedom's jcb wrote:

and look at britain record overseas especially in iraq dropping bombs on cities while they have no proper justification for doing so?

Be that as it may, do you think killing more people will make it OK?

freedom's jcb wrote:

i personally deeply regret any civilian death in the struggle ... but i will always be proud to support the ira

That, my young friend, is the height of hypocrisy.

[edit] Soz, Sceptre, your warning got posted between me hitting "quote" and "send"! [/edit]

FTA69

true wrote:

FTA69, you leave us a little confused. You implied a number of posts ago you are in the IRA, now you say you are not

.

When have I ever said or implied I was a member of the IRA? Three times on this board I have been asked am I an IRA Volunteer and three times I have given a definitive "no". Provide me with examples to back up your statement please, or else don't bother saying anything at all.

Fair enough, I believe you. Then in the last post you do "not expect Earthman ( or someone ) to draw an intelligent conclusion, as he has no experience with Republicanism." With all due respect, it seems that you think that the rest of us cannot draw an intelligent conclusion unless we have experience with Republicanism ? Perhaps any conclusion you do not agree with is not an intelligent conclusion in your eyes ?

I think one must have some experience with or at least a fair amount of knowledge on the Republican Movement before they can comment on it, yes. Earthman's comments on the subject of alledged RIRA/IRA co-operation are complete nonsense and have absolutely no bearing on reality. My opinion of what constitutes an "intellignet opinion" has no relationship with what I deem to be righteous at all. However, opinions should be based on fact and that was something lacking in his post.

FTA69, you said you were seven when the cessation was declared, so you could not remember most of the atrocities during the troubles.

I was not alive at the time of or aware of many examples of the conflict, that is true, but I must ask, what is your point? I still recognise they occured and I have no misconceptions or romantic notions about what a war involves, and that is what matters.

As you proclaim to be from " Free West Waterford ", I find it extraordinary how teenager like you can give such a one side version of the northern problem with such authority. Most of the rest of us on this board, I am sure, are considerably older and more experienced, and many of us I suspect live closer to the border than you do.

Ian Paisley is "older and more experienced" than I am, does his opinion override mine? And what exactly is the nature of your experience true? I'm sure the vast majority of your "experience" involved watching the news at 6 o clock. Have you ever had your house ripped apart by police? Have you ever been the only person out of a group to be taken aside and given a humiliating "drug" search? When was the last time you were arrested? When did you ever see your friends come back from a police station with split lips and cracked ribs? When have you ever been sacked from a job because of your politics? Don't lecture me on "experience" a chara, I know well what this struggle entails and probably have had more "experience" with the issue than you despite my age.

Your other comments regarding my proximity to the border sum up your total ignorance on Republicanism. First of all Republicanism is not confined to the narrow assertion that the Brits have no claim to the Six County state. It is an all-Ireland ideology and the Republican analysis is that the Six Counties are as much my country as they are anyone's from Belfast or Tyrone. Secondly, Republicanism has with it a social agenda which applies to working class people all over this island. The dilapidated housing I see in my locality as well as the people polluting their own communities with drugs are as much a Republican issue for me as British imperialism in Ireland. It is you who needs the educating true.

Can you please enlighten us, where did you get most of your northern political opinions from? Was it school, was it certain newspapers, was it meeting people from Northern Ireland ( if so, did you meet a broad spectrum of people )?

For your information there is very little information on the recent war or the nature of the Six Counties to be had in Irish schools, north or south. My opinions stemmed from my becoming politically aware, mostly through reading books and later my first hand experience when I joined Sinn Féin and became involved in activism.

FTA69

Earthman wrote:

Quite frankly thats laughable,there were no such reservations as to what to do with people during the IRA campaign and very little reservations with punishment beatings.
Turn them into the Gardaí, shop them perhaps?
If as you say theres such indignation between the two
Can you give a cast iron guarantee that despite infighting as to how to procede theres no communication whatsoever between RIRA PIRA and CIRA?
You are asking us to believe that guys can walk away with weapons at any time from the IRA and thats that - no more said-bye bye lads?

As for my knowledge of Republicanism and my inteligence,It strikes me that questioning someones inteligence because they apply a little lateral thinking is indicative of a bereavement of debating skills.

The Republican Movement does not co-operate with the police forces in Ireland and as such your suggestion is unrealistic in the extreme. Can I give you a cast iron guarantee that there is no communication between the CIRA, RIRA and IRA? Can you give me one stating there has been???

The CIRA and RIRA have had discussions before but owing to many personality clashes as well as the CIRA's insistence that they are the legitimate government of Ireland as well as the legitimate heirs of the 1916 Volunteers not much progress has been made. The CIRA also label the RIRA unprincipled for not splitting back in 1986 when abstentionism was dropped. The thing the organisations have most in common is their hatred for the Republican Movement, there has been hostility between individual Volunteers on the ground also. As for your question regarding weapons, these were stolen during the IRA Cessation and as such the IRA was not about to react in a way they may have if they were active. Their hands were politically bound so to speak. However, I am not a spokesperson for the IRA and nor am I member of that organisation, all I can give is my analysis of the subject and you can take whatever you want from it.

I also never questioned your personal intelligence, I questioned the intelligence contained in the subject you are pursuing, there is a big difference.

Healio

I believe this robbery was done by MI5, and consequently blamed on the ira.

FTA69

true wrote:

I wonder where "Freedoms JCB " gets his extreme ideas from? I think it is very sad to see someone ( probably a teenager ? ) brainwashed so much,

Why do you feel the need to dwell on peoples' ages so much? Why not address the points they actually make as opposed to engaging cheap condescension? I am young, true, but I am also well able to convey and deliver my opinions and beliefs in a clear and rational manner. That is what counts true, not someone's age.

Given the propoganda many history teachers are spouting out ( the famine, the auld enemy, the great "heroes" of 1916 etc ) , and given RTE's republican bias, perhaps it is not surprising.

Well maybe this is a scenario where your alledged experience in life works against you a chara. How long since you were in school? The history textbooks we learn from today are in the main entirely impartial as are the majority of history teachers. By the way, the vast majority of Irish people regard the men of 1916 as heroes, not just teachers. You and your revisionist ilk are very much the minority. Thank god. As for RTÉ, I believe they had us banned from the TV for nearly 21 years, hardly what you would call "Republican bias", we face the same questions on topic shows as any other organisation.

Reading Freedoms JCB piece about the "frequent illegial British army border incursions in to the south of Ireland" , an observer unfamilar with the situation eg Noraid may imagine the situation different to the reality. These incursion were infrequent and usually consisted of half a dozen soldiers making a map reading error and going a few hundred yards too far south. Unlike IRA excursions in to the North , there was little or no harm intended.

During the war hundreds were logged every year true, a recent example occured a few months ago when up to 15 brits took up positions in Omeath in Co Louth. As for your allegations that Brit border breaches were innocuous, what about John Francis Green who was killed in Monaghan by British agents? Or the many people who were kidnapped from safe houses in Louth or Monaghan by the SAS, made to cross the border at gunpoint and were then arrested? You really don't know the half of it do you?

FTA69

MrPudding wrote:

As for Loughgall they got what they deserved. You want to fight a war be prepared to die. You can't just have the "romantic" side. Look at me I am a "freedom fighter / terrorist" I should be allowed to kill people cos I am fighting a war. It works both ways. Those fcukers were on there way to plant a rather large bomb, they got what they deserved.

But the difference is that the IRA were explicit in the aims and method of their actions. They came out clean and stated they were engaged in a war and that they would take all measures necessary, also, IRA Volunteers know exactly the nature of the struggle they are involved in and they do not expect any quarter from an establishment that killed hundreds of IRA personnell.

The brits however, are engaged in gross hypocrisy considering they pretend to be engaged in "rounding up a criminal conspiracy" and as such they act "within the law". The routine extra-judicial executions by British forces of some hue or another undermine this facade. It is the blatant double standards and hypocrisy that Republicans have a problem with.

true

FTA69 wrote:

The Castlereagh break in which was never proven to be the work of Republicans. Police investigations are now pointing towards renegade elements in the RIR and considering the UDA also came out publicly and stated they are in possesion of the files I fail to see how we are responsible.

This is one of the reasons why I wondered were you in the IRA, FTA69. The IRA was widely suspected at the time - and is probably still the main suspect - and you "fail to see how we are responsible", not "fail to see how the IRA are responsible"

FTA69, as regards the rest of you allegations, it is not surprising as you admit most of your political education about Northern Ireland came about through books ( presumably ones written by the lads from the movement ) and from Sinn Fein. You ask when was the last time I was arrested? You say you would bet you have more experience with this and other issues than me. I was never arrested, thank you, I am a law abiding citizen. I suggest that if you become one as well then you will not get arrested.

If you are concerned with delipated housing why do you not become a builder or tradesman ? I will tell you something. There is a part of Donegal they call SinnFeinTown, as so many Sinn Fein / IRA boyos from the North have holiday homes there. There are a few multi-millionaires Sinn Feiners in South Armagh , "well connected", who have huge houses and make a nice few bob out of various activities. Ditto some holiday homes in Carlingford. If you are concerned about housing in your locality, joining Sinn Fein will not help.
If you are concerned about drugs, how do you think the Columbia three were going to get paid ? What else do FARC have ?

Finally, to get back to the main thread, a survey last weekend put 86% of people as not trusting Sinn Fein / IRA. Yet you believe they did not steal the Northern bank money and threaten the two families with murder. Our taoiseach said the IRA was responsible and that the Gardai have evidence, but that they cannot show their hand yet.

true

Re: the Loughgall thread above, the IRA men were all armed with klashnikovs and they had a JCB with a large bomb in its bucket , to demolish the police station, and kill any occupants. When the IRA claimed they had the right to - and often did - gang up on and surprise and kill a part time or retired policeman or UDR soldier in his tractor or garden or shop or house or car in a rural border area, before escaping across the border, I think it is fair that the Security forces had the right to fire back.

FTA69

true wrote:

This is one of the reasons why I wondered were you in the IRA, FTA69. The IRA was widely suspected at the time - and is probably still the main suspect - and you "fail to see how we are responsible", not "fail to see how the IRA are responsible"

By "we" I meant Republicans in general, and considering that people were calling for Sinn Féin to be penalised because of it the issue does affect the organisation of which I am a member. How you construed that to mean I was implying I was an IRA Volunteer is beyond me.

FTA69, as regards the rest of you allegations, it is not surprising as you admit most of your political education about Northern Ireland came about through books ( presumably ones written by the lads from the movement ) and from Sinn Fein.

What other "allegations were these?" I read books from a variety of sources, including ones by people sympathetic to the British/Unionist point of view ie Tony Geraghty. Do you read books by Republican authors? I also stated that my opinion comes from my own personal experience of activism, something which you ignored.

You ask when was the last time I was arrested? You say you would bet you have more experience with this and other issues than me. I was never arrested, thank you, I am a law abiding citizen. I suggest that if you become one as well then you will not get arrested.

I was never arrested for breaking laws, I was arrested because I was a member of a legitimate, represented political party that happens to be the subject of scrutiny by the Secret Police AKA the Special Branch. That carry on is reminiscent of Mao's China and it is an out and out disgrace.

If you are concerned with delipated housing why do you not become a builder or tradesman ?

Because it is politicians who direct housing in this country as you well know, besides, my comment was meant to include all examples of the poverty we have in Ireland.

I will tell you something. There is a part of Donegal they call SinnFeinTown, as so many Sinn Fein / IRA boyos from the North have holiday homes there. There are a few multi-millionaires Sinn Feiners in South Armagh , "well connected", who have huge houses and make a nice few bob out of various activities. Ditto some holiday homes in Carlingford.

Like who?

If you are concerned about housing in your locality, joining Sinn Fein will not help.

Yes it will, Sinn Féin has an excellent reputation for local community activism and even our staunchest critics will admit that.

If you are concerned about drugs, how do you think the Columbia three were going to get paid ? What else do FARC have ?

As far as I know there was no proof that those men were committing the actions for which they were tried in a showtrial. If hypothetically the IRA were establishing links with FARC it would not have been for profit considering they have links with ETA and the PLA.

Our taoiseach said the IRA was responsible and that the Gardai have evidence, but that they cannot show their hand yet.

How conveniant, until they are in a position to demonstrate their evidence they should shut up then and stop wreaking havoc in Irish politics on circumstantial nonsense.

FTA69

true wrote:

Re: the Loughgall thread above, the IRA men were all armed with klashnikovs and they had a JCB with a large bomb in its bucket , to demolish the police station, and kill any occupants. When the IRA claimed they had the right to - and often did - gang up on and surprise and kill a part time or retired policeman or UDR soldier in his tractor or garden or shop or house or car in a rural border area, before escaping across the border, I think it is fair that the Security forces had the right to fire back.

The SAS also shot 3 unarmed Volunteers in the head while they lay on the ground dying, is that a defensive action on their part? Don't get me wrong now, I have no illusions about what the brits are about. I just resent seeing extra-judicial killings and then having the lie that it was all about the "law" rammed down my throat. That I'm sure you'll agree, is hypocritical.

true

You wonder which of the big boys have holiday homes this side of the border? Well Gerry Adams has one up in North Donegal, for example. I will not bore you with a list : suffice to know that the boys live in style.

As regards Columbia, it is thought the contract was worth two million dollars.

You say you do not want to become a builder or a tradesman "because it is politicians who direct housing in this country". Really? Any more so than any other country? If Builders and tradesmen build them, and sell them directly or through auctioneers to consumers, what have politicians to do with it? If we were all politicians there would be no new houses. As regards local authority houses , I suppose if you are a Sinn Fein councellor you could " direct " ( your word, not mine) some housing then all right.

true

FTA69 wrote:

The SAS also shot 3 unarmed Volunteers in the head while they lay on the ground dying, is that a defensive action on their part? Don't get me wrong now, I have no illusions about what the brits are about. I just resent seeing extra-judicial killings and then having the lie that it was all about the "law" rammed down my throat. That I'm sure you'll agree, is hypocritical.

Excuse me, the IRA gang that attacked Loughall were armed and on "active service". The same gang had killed mercilessly security force personell in the recent previous past. If you want a long life, do not join the IRA and go around with guns and bombs..

FTA69

I know well what the ASU was planning thank you, but you are missing my point. The British cannot claim to be a legal force, nor can they hide behind talk of "criminality" and "law" when they extra-judicially kill people as a routine.

FTA69

true wrote:

You wonder which of the big boys have holiday homes this side of the border? Well Gerry Adams has one up in North Donegal, for example.

Bought with the proceeds of his book sales, he is an internationally selling authour you know. This has absolutely no connection to what you are alledging.

I will not bore you with a list

I would be interested to hear the extent of your esteemed "experience", who are these people?

As regards Columbia, it is thought the contract was worth two million dollars.

Says the police and the gutter press, hardly impartial sources. There was no proof to demonstrate the men were even training FARC in the first place, never mind nonsense about "contracts.

You say you do not want to become a builder or a tradesman "because it is politicians who direct housing in this country". Really?

Yes, it tends to be politicians who control council housing which is the type of housing that is shoddy at best.

elivsvonchiaing

'Scuse my laziness here - haven't read every single post... Impression is this is 1) an excuse by the existing government to lambast Sinn Féin.
2) There is hidden evidence to suggest they are correct

- This is what needs to be revealed - what we are witnessing here I think is the end scene of "The good (your politics :eek: ), the bad (likewise) and the ugly (no comment ). It is the most intense politics we won't witness 'coz most of the 'draw scene will need to be conducted behind the scenes!

Wonder what the outcome will be though? My money is on Clint Eastwood - not sure which side he represents though :rolleyes:

[edit]I intend to keep my day job and not become a spin-doctor - but that is how these people operate- often have a farm of people with vh speed internet connections - get what's on the web + flunkies in parliament - reckon web will become more part of this in near future tbh, Blomberg/Reuters terminal also useful - but see above - it's going to the web! [edit]

true

The SAS shot in self defence. The large heavily armed IRA gang had come on a mission to destroy the building and kill all inside - the SAS done the job the elected politicians paid them to do. We were lucky to have them. Otherwise how many more people would that IRA gang have killed ? Oh, I see, you think the more the better.

As regards the holiday homes, the list was widely published in the papers in the past.
Where else do you think all the money goes ? It certainly does not go on council housing. Speaking of which, if you wanted to improve this, what use is being a Sinn Fein politician?

elivsvonchiaing

true wrote:

The SAS shot in self defence. The large heavily armed IRA gang had come on a mission to destroy the building and kill all inside - the SAS done the job the elected politicians paid them to do. We were lucky to have them. Otherwise how many more people would that IRA gang have killed ? Oh, I see, you think the more the better.

As regards the holiday homes, the list was widely published in the papers in the past.
Where else do you think all the money goes ? It certainly does not go on council housing. Speaking of which, if you wanted to improve this, what use is being a Sinn Fein politician?

Think in this forum you need to quote here to identify your point - think you might be right! <enables gattling cannon wired to doorbell :cool: >

AmenToThat

true wrote:

The SAS shot in self defence. The large heavily armed IRA gang had come on a mission to destroy the building and kill all inside - the SAS done the job the elected politicians paid them to do. We were lucky to have them.

Im sure all the familes of those killed by loyalist death squads in conjunction with the British security services or those innocents killed by soldiers in 'shot to kill' incidents dont think 'we are lucky to have them'.

Anyway who is this 'we', Im confused on that as as far as I was concerned the SAS were members of the British security services not the Irish?

The same security services who are believed to have helped loyalists to plant the bombs in Dublin and Monaghan that killed so many innicents, the same security services that said that Saddam had chemical and biological weapons that could be 'ready to go' in 45 minutes which was one of the cornerstones in clearing the way for the invasion of Iraq that has lead to the death of tens of thousands of innocent civilians.

Time here I think to invoke SF mantra...
Theres hurt on both sides, for every one of yours they can quote one of theirs etc.
Pointless at this stage.
The only thing to grasp is violence,bombing and shooting is wrong-full stop and thats what most people believe.


How many pages back did Sceptre ask this to go back on topic??( speaking as an offender, I shall offend no more )

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote:

The Republican Movement does not co-operate with the police forces in Ireland

Then they can't claim to be good citizens. Co-operation with the police force employed by the government elected by the people is every citizen's duty.

Dragging this kicking and screaming back on topic: if the Republican Movement has a policy of not co-operating with police, why should we even take into account their assertion that they had no involvement in the bank raid?

FTA69 wrote:

I was never arrested for breaking laws, I was arrested because I was a member of a legitimate, represented political party that happens to be the subject of scrutiny by the Secret Police AKA the Special Branch. That carry on is reminiscent of Mao's China and it is an out and out disgrace.

Unless you were charged with membership of Sinn Féin, I somehow doubt that what you have said here is strictly accurate. Besides, you've already said that your movement refuses to co-operate with the police - is it surprising that the contempt should be reciprocal?

FTA69

true wrote:

The SAS shot in self defence.

They shot Vol Declan Arthurs more than 30 times in the head, back and legs while he was running away unarmed. Three other Volunteers were shot in the head at point blank range while on the ground and unarmed, is this "self defence" true? The difference between the two of us true, is that I acknowledge a war was being fought and as such incidents such as the one above are inevitable. You however seem to support military actiopns like the Loughgall ambush as long as the Brits are the ones doing the killing but then have the gall to turn around and say this was not a war! It is the height of hypocrisy.

The large heavily armed IRA gang had come on a mission to destroy the building and kill all inside

The ASU was actually of the opinion that the station was empty, that is why they came with the bomb at an hour the police station would have been closed at.

Oh, I see, you think the more the better.

You also support the killing of opponents judging by your previous statements, don't attempt to pretend you are opposed to such actions.

As regards the holiday homes, the list was widely published in the papers in the past.

In what the Sunday "Independent"? I thought you were "experienced" in such matters true, but it turns out this "experience" was in fact regurgitation of media fabrications.

Speaking of which, if you wanted to improve this, what use is being a Sinn Fein politician?

Because I believe Sinn Féin is the only party with a radical programme to address these issues in Irish society.

FTA69

oscarBravo wrote:

Then they can't claim to be good citizens. Co-operation with the police force employed by the government elected by the people is every citizen's duty.

And neither can the police forces owing to their track records of torture, collusion, internment, murder and harrasment.

Dragging this kicking and screaming back on topic: if the Republican Movement has a policy of not co-operating with police, why should we even take into account their assertion that they had no involvement in the bank raid?

And why should you even take into account a police statement with absolutely no evidence having been produced to support it?

Besides, you've already said that your movement refuses to co-operate with the police - is it surprising that the contempt should be reciprocal?

Believe me, I have no illusions about what the police think about us. However, your comment could also be rephrased as : "is it surprising that Garda contempt for Republicans could be reciprocated"?

ishmael whale

Quite a reasonable article from the Examiner, which gives a fair indication of what many of us expect happen in the present case.

http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/opinion/Full_Story/did-sgP6WPwPzqrzMsgTbBP-2fa91M.asp

“….. Garda Jerry McCabe was shot dead in Adare on June 7, 1996. If you search the internet on that date and insert the words 'Sinn Féin and IRA,' you come to a series of interesting links. For example, on Monday, June 11, 1996, Sinn Féin's vice-president Pat Doherty was on RTE's Questions and Answers. He refused to condemn the killing but, in words similar to those used again by Sinn Féin representatives this week, Doherty said he believed the IRA statement which categorically denied involvement by that organisation in the Adare shootings. On the same night, on the BBC flagship Newsnight programme, Martin McGuinness, also said he accepted the IRA's word that they had not been involved.

Since the internet was not as advanced in 1996 as it is now, there isn't easy access to the sound files, but there are links to lots of press reports of these SF denials of IRA involvement in the McCabe killing. There are hundreds of links tracing how Sinn Féin gradually changed its position. In chronological order the links follow news reports about the arrest of the McCabe killers, their trial for murder, the intimidation of key witnesses at the trial and the state's resultant acceptance of a plea of manslaughter. Sinn Féin gradually accepted that the men were IRA activists and, in fact, party representatives became the cheerleaders in chief for their early release.

However, the search engines throw up even more interesting links to a series of media statements from Sinn Féin in the days after the arrest of three suspected IRA terrorists in Columbia in August 2001.

The three men James Monaghan, Martin McCauley and Niall Connolly were arrested while travelling on false passports on August 11, 2001.

In the days after the arrest newspapers reported that security sources north and south of the border were claiming that one of the three, Niall Connolly, was involved with Sinn Féin and operated as a representative of the party in Cuba.

It was alleged, for example, that Connolly was instrumental in planning arrangements for Gerry Adams's visit to Cuba which had been scheduled for the following month (September 2001). At the height of the international media storm which surrounded the arrests of the three men, Sinn Féin adopted a stance of complete denial.

There are links to numerous newspaper reports in which Sinn Féin spokespersons, including Gerry Adams himself, insisted that none of the three men arrested in Bogota was a member of Sinn Féin. …….
Sinn Féin accepted from the outset that James Monaghan had, ten years earlier, been a member of the Sinn Féin árd cómhairle, but maintained he had dropped out of active involvement with the party. McLaughlin again denied that Monaghan or McCauley or Connolly had any current involvement with the party. "It is clear that they no longer are members of the party; they act in no function whatsoever on behalf of the party and that should be crystal clear." ……. McLaughlin even went so far as to say: "I think that people will look back on it with some bemusement in terms of how the media themselves were manipulated in these circumstances."

………On October 22, 2001, Gerry Adams issued a statement clarifying that following "an investigation," it had emerged that, after all, Niall Connolly had been a Sinn Féin representative in Cuba.....Interestingly, in his statement on October 21 2001, Adams apologised to the Connolly family for the anguish caused by his repeated denials, but there was no apology to the media or the public for repeatedly lying to them.”

freedom's jcb

although your writing style strongly suggests it - unlike FTA69 who is delightfully literate

oscar bravo,
fair enough ill admit im fairly new to internet forums like this one and others, and ill also admit my typing could be better but what exactly are you suggesting? because if its another slur on me personally and my age then i wish you would have had the courtesy if you had a problem with my typing you could have at least sent me a pm instead of trying to patronise me and my beliefs.
if you have anything further to say to me not regarding my opinion i wish you would have to decency to pm me or leave any further personal attacks on me aside,in saying that if you disagree with me strongly on my opinons ill accept that as positive debate and not a slagging match.

republican scumbags

well thats maybe the way you feel,i certainly dont feel like that but harmless name calling is unacceptable i would think because im sure someone would come down on me like a ton of bricks if i refered to the british army as "scumbags".

Sounds to me like the nearest thing possible to a perfect compromise

the gfa has delivered nothing to republicans except containment and i have continually said that sinn fein should keep going to get a better deal instead of saying that the gfa is a victory for republicanism and we should be happy with remilitarisation and containment.

The SAS shot in self defence.

true,
i look at that quote with total disgust because its complete british propaganda that has been proven wrong on several occasions.in loughgall the volunteers who hadnt left the van were struck down by 125 sas rounds and how could these men inside the van have attacked the sas from a van with no windows? and not only that what about the totally innocent men,one of which who died who just happened to be driving down the road when the sas opened up on their car?
the thatcher government wanted blood and she sent her death squads to tyrone and other rural area's to try and get it and i believe if you can criticise the ira for its campaign why shouldnt you criticise the ruc,sas and loyalists with theirs.
i would like you to tell the people who have suffered from the hands of the british army death machine "that we were lucky to have them"

p.s if that post isnt good enough for you oscar i quit.

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

The SAS shot in self defence.

You are simply wrong. Try and educate yourself about the ambush before you post drivel like that

The large heavily armed IRA gang had come on a mission to destroy the building and kill all inside

The IRA gang were going to destroy the RUC building, it would normally have been empty but was manned with SAS men for the ambush

- the SAS done the job the elected politicians paid them to do.

Correct including killing and injuring the innocent men

We were lucky to have them.

'We',are you in the British Army? or are you British?

Otherwise how many more people would that IRA gang have killed ? Oh, I see, you think the more the better.

Who knows? so you do not think the IRA men should have been arrested as the government knew about the attack for weeks. They were ambushed and executed. In a war situation, I do not have a problem with that but apparently you only have aproblem if the IRA done the ambush.

As regards the holiday homes, the list was widely published in the papers in the past.
Where else do you think all the money goes ?

A few of my work colleagues bought holiday homes in Donegal, should I report them to the taxman as they obviously stole the money.