Headlock Escape

vasch_ro

Musashi wrote:

.

When my "posing partner" gets back from his holiday we'll get something done which should address this.I've a few ideas I'm trying to work out how best to show in pics.A couple are nasty and a few ,while performed in defense of self, may be seen by the Gardai as a serious assault! This is probably part of the distinction most of the lads are making when they compare the ring to "the Street"?
.

once you employ "reasonable force" that is only such force as is required to defend yourself you are covered , a serious assult would be classed as
a section 4 assault , one that causes serious harm ,
"serious harm" means injury which creates a substantial risk of death or which
causes serious disfigurement or substantial loss or impairment of the mobility
of the body as a whole or of the function of any particular bodily member or
organ;

and in relation to justifable use of force Section 18 of the
NON-FATAL OFFENCES AGAINST THE PERSON ACT 1997 states the following

Justifiable use of force; protection of person or property, prevention of crime, etc.

18.—(1) The use of force by a person for any of the following purposes, if
only such as is reasonable in the circumstances as he or she believes them to
be, does not constitute an offence—

( a ) to protect himself or herself or a member of the family of that person
or another from injury, assault or detention caused by a criminal act; or

( b ) to protect himself or herself or (with the authority of that other)
another from trespass to the person; or

( c ) to protect his or her property from appropriation, destruction or damage
caused by a criminal act or from trespass or infringement; or

( d ) to protect property belonging to another from appropriation, destruction
or damage caused by a criminal act or (with the authority of that other) from
trespass or infringement; or

( e ) to prevent crime or a breach of the peace.

(2) "use of force" in subsection (1) is defined and extended by section 20.

(3) For the purposes of this section an act involves a "crime" or is
"criminal" although the person committing it, if charged with an offence in
respect of it, would be acquitted on the ground that—

( a ) he or she was under 7 years of age; or

( b ) he or she acted under duress, whether by threats or of circumstances; or

( c ) his or her act was involuntary; or

( d ) he or she was in a state of intoxication, or

( e ) he or she was insane, so as not to be responsible, according to law, for
the act.

(4) The references in subsection (1) to protecting a person and property from
anything include protecting the person or properly from its continuing; and
the reference to preventing crime or a breach of the peace shall be similarly
construed.


(5) For the purposes of this section the question whether the act against
which force is used is of a kind mentioned in any of the paragraphs (a) to (e)
of subsection (1) shall be determined according to the circumstances as the
person using the force believes them to be.

(6) Notwithstanding subsection (1), a person who believes circumstances to
exist which would justify or excuse the use of force under that subsection has
no defence if he or she knows that the force is used against a member of the
Garda Síochána acting in the course of the member's duty or a person so
assisting such member, unless he or she believes the force to be immediately
necessary to prevent harm to himself or herself or another.

(7) The defence provided by this section does not apply to a person who causes
conduct or a state of affairs with a view to using force to resist or
terminate it:

But the defence may apply although the occasion for the use of force arises
only because the person does something he or she may lawfully do, knowing that
such an occasion will arise.

(8) Property shall be treated for the purposes of subsection (1)(c) and (d) as
belonging to any person—

( a ) having the custody or control of it;

( b ) having in it any proprietary right or interest (not being an equitable
interest arising only from an agreement to transfer or grant an interest); or

( c ) having a charge on it;

and where property is subject to a trust, the persons to whom it belongs shall
be treated as including any person having a right to enforce the trust.

Property of a corporation sole shall be treated for the purposes of the
aforesaid provisions as belonging to the corporation notwithstanding a vacancy
in the corporation.

Musashi

once you employ "reasonable force" that is only such force as is required to defend yourself you are covered

See the case settled recently where a guy was threatened with violence at his home by three guys and told that they were going to get his son as well.
He was acquited of shooting one guy dead and wounding another.He was prosecuted for unlawful wounding of the third guy,as he was running away and as such presented no further threat.
I am not a barrister and would hope to never have to find out about the legalities,but if I am genuinely in fear of my life (as in I believe two or three guys are fixing to kick me to death) then inflicting serious injury ,which may or may not lead to the death of an aggressor, is a moral course of action to me.
Of course all situations are different and while I may feel justified a witness may feel I over reacted.This is why any action presented is for information purposes and not telling you to kill the next guy grabs you by the head.
Years ago my Uncle witnessed an arguement which lead to one punch being thrown.The man struck fell and hit his head on a kerb,and later died.The guy who threw the punch received seven years for Manslaughter.
The feeling is the more you learn what can happen in a fight and how serious it can get very quickly,the less I want anything to do with it!
Like a car accident,I know it can happen,so I wear my seat belt.I don't worry every time I start my car that I may die in it.But I am glad that if it does happen I have got an airbag as well as a belt.Security in layers,even though the best outcome would be if a crash never happened.
Hope this makes sense lads.

pma-ire

I have always been warned about the law being stacked against me, and I have passed this on to my students over the years.

But as I have been out of training the last 2 years, I have been thinking about this. If I feel my health or safety or my family is in threat, then I would "be in fear of my life officer". And sod the result.

This would be after trying to talk any situation down or waiting for the first punch. But sometimes you can't wait for that first attack on your person as it might be the one that takes you out.

Musashi

The first heel to the face landed in the other guys mouth and sunk two teeth into his palm. Which had to be removed in the local A&E dept.

Nasty, but a fist of knuckles to the teeth could go the same way!

i remember reading once the most common injuries going tru casualty wards due to fights was busted hands/wrists. Pretty damn sure that aint from wristlocks
Im sure some of that is people landing on their hands trying to break a fall as well :-) especially if they are half drunk!

Sorry for mixing quotes but my reply makes better sense this way!

The way I've come to look at this,we all fell over as kids,yea? How did you break the fall?What got skinned and needed our Mammies to kiss better? Palm heel for want of a better word,with some knee Boo-Boo's thrown in
If you want to hammer on a door do you use Palm,Hammer Fist,or your fist?
These hand tools are already an integral part of your bodies responses,why not use them?I know I had to train hard to learn to punch "Properly".
Also, from a near "nose to nose" position you can palm strike from under his radar and between his guard,much like a good uppercut.A lot easier to teach and retain with beginners on a Self Defense course though!
And I have never broken my wrists,even falling from a height, but I'd hate to try land on my fists!

Try this,stand upright and drop to a press up position without bending the knees.Just fall forward and catch your weight on your hands.
Try it landing on your knuckles.It's only your body weight and a bit of drop after all.If you punch your bodyweight you'll generate this kind of force.
I know the ground is an unwielding surface compared to ribs etc. But if you are more comfortable using one part of the hand over another,won't you strike harder with that same hand tool?

Roper

We can all tell anecdotes and horror stories. I shot my knuckle into my hand once. But that was boxing, with 10oz gloves and wraps.
I've also dislocated my wrist (still feelin that after 2 years and now I can't hit for sh1t) on focus pads with an inocuous right hand. It can happen anywhere and people in fights do whatever comes naturally. So if they dig they dig, and maybe worry about their hands later. Better than getting your head danced on.

On all this "if no gloves" argument, I reckon there's one question can be asked of anyone. Gloves or no gloves, would you fancy getting hit by a good boxer? Or would you be concerned he'd hurt his hands?

pma-ire

pma-ire wrote:

We should hope that training will sharpen our targeting so that the risk of opening yourself up on some @holes head won't hold you back.

That what I was saying here. But deffo heel palms, slaps and hammer fists are easier to deliver on a hard head and torso than punching.

Though I would think that all on here are used to hitting things with a closed fist by now

On glove training...I never liked using bag gloves and wraps etc. I punch barehand on bags and pads. If I feel my hands and wrists can't take the full wack I'll either ease off on the impact till I get used to it, or try different striking angles that might make the impact cleaner.

I know the dangers and the if's and but's, it's just what I like to do

mark.leonard

Just to wander a little bit back towards the topic - there are too many variables in a street scenario to be able to decide on a strategy ahead of time. To quote Matt Thornton quoting some American General "Circumstances dictate tactics and plans change upon contact", maybe you will wind up in a head lock on the street, in which case this technique might be useful, maybe you won't, but you are still better off being able to pull it off so you have the option of using it. Agreed that goign to ground is a bad idea on the street for the most part, but again you don't know what the scenario is going to be so you need to be able to fight in all three ranges.
As for the punching argument; if you are able to use a heel palm effectively then great go for that, if punching is your thing then go for that instead, in using each there is risk of self injury, when you put that in context with the dim view the law takes of martial artists using their skills in the public domain, any kind of fisticuffs is a bad idea. Prevention is obviously worth more than cure on the street; as we are all trained in Martial Arts we should have a presence around us that indicates we know how to handle ourselves, as Mushashi alluded to above, attackers are looking for victims, not people who will put up a fight! If you have got game then that will be there for anyone to see in the way you carry yourself, couple that with not going to rough places or hanging out with rough people and you have a strong formula for avoiding altercations altogether.

Passers by always take the side of the loser, its human nature! I don't know how many times I had punters coming up to me demonising my actions only to find out that they were warranted; I had a guy hit me with a pipe one night and after I took him out I had two passers by ringing the cops to see me brought to justice. Once the cops arrived however I made my statement in ear shot of the two and they scarpered right quick especially after I showed them the pipe involved!

Roper

On glove training...I never liked using bag gloves and wraps etc. I punch barehand on bags and pads. If I feel my hands and wrists can't take the full wack I'll either ease off on the impact till I get used to it, or try different striking angles that might make the impact cleaner.

I know the dangers and the if's and but's, it's just what I like to do

I respect that that's your thing or whatever, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. If you're not hitting the bag full on then your wasting it, its there to be hit hard. Especially with pads though, if your pad man feeds a bit too hard you can easily crack a wrist or a knuckle without mitts.

Punching barehand might seem like a good idea, and I'm sure I could come up with some pseudo-science to justify it, but all you have to do is look at the boys and girls who hit hardest and see how they protect themselves.

Roper

"Plans are everything until the battle is joined", thats Dwight Eisenhower on a similar tack!

Jeez Mark, you sure enforce the smoking ban harshly in Galway. First there was Fibber Magees, and now some old man smoking a pipe incurs your wrath. What a town. Still, I suppose it must have hurt if it was still lit.......

mark.leonard

Roper wrote:

Jeez Mark, you sure enforce the smoking ban harshly in Galway. First there was Fibber Magees, and now some old man smoking a pipe incurs your wrath. What a town. Still, I suppose it must have hurt if it was still lit.......

lmao!!

dabhal

Wow this thread has shot off all over the place.
A few commments on it:

The headlock:
It's a good technique and I for one appreciate the time and effort the guys went to post it up.
The arguments against it are pretty much a waste of time unless someone is claiming that it is the only technique to use in a headlock. It’s an EXAMPLE. If anyone out there learns specific techniques against different attacks off by heart then quite simply they are a world class idiot. You could do that headlock escape 1000 times in training and then on the street someone grabs you who is stronger/heavier and has your face impaled on a belt buckle. You never know, you train to adapt to any situation unless you believe the guy on the street will let go and apologise when you say “hey you’re in the wrong stance and your arm isn’t straight”
I'm not attacking what anyone said here. If you look at other threads you'll see that I'm not too happy about going to the ground in a headlock but I'd never rule it out.

On the not punching people, well that’s just different for everyone isn’t it. It’s mostly technique and training. I quite often punch a heavy bag (without gloves) as part of my training. Years ago I had a few wrist injuries etc but not any more.
You hit a guy and got an infection/broken finger, well it’s a fight for your protection not a movie. Odds are if you get in a fight you will sustain at least some injury. You should just accept that or you will probably just freeze when attacked.

On the law side of things, again not something you should be worrying about in an attack.
As long as you use reasonable force you should be ok anyway.
My personal rule should I ever need it, Do whatever it takes to keep my family/myself safe and then run like the wind. If the law deems my actions over the top (I doubt it) then I’ll deal with it then, at least I’m safe and so is my family.

I have resolved myself to these facts in the event that I am ever in a suitation so that I don't have to weight any moral/legal issues in my head before acting.

Dabhal

pma-ire

mark.lenoard wrote:

you don't know what the scenario is going to be so you need to be able to fight in all three ranges.

Spot on Mark

roper wrote:

I respect that that's your thing or whatever, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. If you're not hitting the bag full on then your wasting it, its there to be hit hard. Especially with pads though, if your pad man feeds a bit too hard you can easily crack a wrist or a knuckle without mitts.

I do hit bags hard ! If I hav'int hit them in a while then I build up to full force. I don't want to go into the "these guys hit hard and wear gloves training" thing because if it works for them, great. I'm just not comfortable in them.

Classic security post there Mark. That has happened to me also.

"Oh the poor man"

"Call an ambulance for him"

The poor man had thrown a glass one staff member of the hotel I was working in, and tried to hit me with a stool. In the course of me restraining him and escorting him out the door. He got a cut on his lip and bit it to make it worse. Struggled all the way out to the doors and went limp when I got him to the footpath. Like he was dieing. The guards came and knew him as an insurance scammer that started fights around town for claims.

Forgot to add that he kept spitting the blood at me and all over himself :rolleyes: Maggot :mad:

mark.leonard

If anyone out there learns specific techniques against different attacks off by heart then quite simply they are a world class idiot. You could do that headlock escape 1000 times in training and then on the street someone grabs you who is stronger/heavier and has your face impaled on a belt buckle. You never know, you train to adapt to any situation unless you believe the guy on the street will let go and apologise when you say “hey you’re in the wrong stance and your arm isn’t straight”

If you do the headlock escape 100 times in training with fully resisting parters of varying body types it will definitely help you in whatever arena you find yourself in. I don't think its specific defence vs. specific attack as much as escapes from different positions.
Its definitley not the ONLY escape form there (though it is quite a good one), whenever you hit that position you cue the escape, if your attacker is clued in to what you are doing he may be able to block your escape and you will have to transition to another one. Becasue this is a technical escape independant of attributes, against an untrained fighter you would have a pretty strong chance of success, in so far as you can predict the outcome of any scenario of a million variables!

Dyr

shooting this thread back off on a previous angle: punching and breaking stuff. I found this while searching for something else . Thought that it might be of interest:

9/16/2004: Broken Hands and Broken Promises

Ahhh, yes, the almighty, indefensible, Bruce Lee, Wing Chun, super-duper, battle punch. The cure for cancer. The Mike Tyson stopper. Fear no man! Slay all!

A closed fist strike has a strong chance of fracturing your hand in the middle of a fight. Some experts say a 50-50 chance. A few of my boxer friends report that their hands have broken/fractured so painfully in the first punch of a street fight that they dropped to their knees in agony. (Remember boxers are not used to making solid fists inside their padded gloves.) One of the biggest injuries amongst the NHB fighters is a damaged hand from punching the skull of the ducking head.

Others may continue the fight after the hand injury. In a large group fight with soldiers while I was in South Korea as an MP, I delivered several punches to a ducking head that only slightly fractured my left hand. I, as so many can do, continued the fight. But my hand quickly swelled up and I had to have a ring hack-sawed off my finger within the hour.

But what of this battle punch? The machine gun, rotating center-line, vertical fists, “straight blast?” Works REAL well in the air, huh? Real good hitting focus mitts, huh? There are a few reality success stories and then…quite a few failures. Now that I think of it, about 50-50! One major instructor of the battle punch fractured both his fists in a second actually hitting a guy’s head. Boom. Boom. Both hands out of the fight. In one second. This has happened to him more than once. Yet, he is captured in his system to teach the technique’s invincibility. Been teaching it for years, too many videos made on it and can’t stop now. All at your expense and danger, bubba.

Look at all the people wearing bag gloves and boxing gloves happily punching away on focus mitts in classes, in the name of learning self-defense and street fighting. This warning and reality is virtually ignored in systems like JKD, Wing Chun, versions of Krav Maga, and others. I even see this foolishness at major gun ranges now claiming to teach self-defense, too. At least in straight kickboxing, boxing and Thai, they don’t advertise themselves as street fighting courses!

In Karate years ago we pounded our fists on wood until it was shaped like a Klingon’s with dead nerves. No one warned us we couldn’t hold a coffee cup 30 years later in the gnarled, numb, arthritic lump once called a hand.

The receiver of your battle punch? He stills gets punched and it hurts! But what of your hand? I have written and talked about this many times, as has others. Most combat vets prefer the palm strike, hammer fist etc. If your doctrine is smart, if your system uses maximum common sense and strategy, it de-emphasizes and explains the pros and cons of punching, single or “straight blast.” Limit your punching to the neck and below. Hit something hard with something soft. Hit something soft with something hard.

I hate to burst your super-hero bubble, but…just charging in doing a straight blast…is kinda’ dumb about half the time.

* * *

[URL=http://]http://www.hockscqc.com/blogs/index-9-04.htm[/URL]

mark.leonard

Doesn't sound overly scientific, but there is a case to be made for not punching someone in the head. Now the jaw - totally different matter!
Thai leg kick anyone?

Roper

I wasn't specifically making a point about punching in SD being your only option. My point was more that when paniced a punch would be the thing most people would throw. I have no idea what the battle punch is either.

My real point was that training without proper protection for your hands is a v-bad idea. And the fact remains that you simply cannot hit something as hard as you are capable of doing without protection! I'm not going all out to pick at anybody's training methods, I'm merely pointing out some scientific fact.

I do hit bags hard ! If I hav'int hit them in a while then I build up to full force. I don't want to go into the "these guys hit hard and wear gloves training" thing because if it works for them, great. I'm just not comfortable in them.

I'm not disputing how hard you hit, like I said whatever floats your boat and all.
The "These guys" I'm talking about are boxers. They do it as a matter of course and safety not as a matter of comfort. I'm not attacking you here Paul, I'm just making a point about safety gear!

How off topic is this?

mark.leonard

Could we BE any more off topic?

pma-ire

Again I'm not a mod. But maybe we should look at our posts before we put them up, and if they spread then we should take the split to another thread. I can't imagine anyone coming on here and trying to read the top posted threads all the way through. Which is a pity, they have some great thoughs and discussions in them.

Roper

We are like, SO off topic!

And now with our off topic musings, we have drifted further still!

Colm_OReilly

The whole punching technique vs bareknuckle injuries is a prime example of a straw man argument. My point was that punching someone, the technique that is used, is fundamentally the same no matter what the environment. People then beganing attacking the risks of punching someone in the dreaded street. Not in itself an unworthy topic, but not addressing the point. Anyway, the punching thing was only used as an example.

About hand injuries and casualty. From our sports injuries course we learnt that when people report to A&E they have usually damaged their ring and little finger, a result of punching poorly.

I don't mind topics meandering about if they serve a purpose and generate a reasonable debate.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

Roper

I don't mind topics meandering about if they serve a purpose and generate a reasonable debate.

Nazi!

As for the punching technique, what Colm said. He put it slightly better than I.