Headlock Escape

dabhal

Wow this thread has shot off all over the place.
A few commments on it:

The headlock:
It's a good technique and I for one appreciate the time and effort the guys went to post it up.
The arguments against it are pretty much a waste of time unless someone is claiming that it is the only technique to use in a headlock. It’s an EXAMPLE. If anyone out there learns specific techniques against different attacks off by heart then quite simply they are a world class idiot. You could do that headlock escape 1000 times in training and then on the street someone grabs you who is stronger/heavier and has your face impaled on a belt buckle. You never know, you train to adapt to any situation unless you believe the guy on the street will let go and apologise when you say “hey you’re in the wrong stance and your arm isn’t straight”
I'm not attacking what anyone said here. If you look at other threads you'll see that I'm not too happy about going to the ground in a headlock but I'd never rule it out.

On the not punching people, well that’s just different for everyone isn’t it. It’s mostly technique and training. I quite often punch a heavy bag (without gloves) as part of my training. Years ago I had a few wrist injuries etc but not any more.
You hit a guy and got an infection/broken finger, well it’s a fight for your protection not a movie. Odds are if you get in a fight you will sustain at least some injury. You should just accept that or you will probably just freeze when attacked.

On the law side of things, again not something you should be worrying about in an attack.
As long as you use reasonable force you should be ok anyway.
My personal rule should I ever need it, Do whatever it takes to keep my family/myself safe and then run like the wind. If the law deems my actions over the top (I doubt it) then I’ll deal with it then, at least I’m safe and so is my family.

I have resolved myself to these facts in the event that I am ever in a suitation so that I don't have to weight any moral/legal issues in my head before acting.

Dabhal

pma-ire

mark.lenoard wrote:

you don't know what the scenario is going to be so you need to be able to fight in all three ranges.

Spot on Mark

roper wrote:

I respect that that's your thing or whatever, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. If you're not hitting the bag full on then your wasting it, its there to be hit hard. Especially with pads though, if your pad man feeds a bit too hard you can easily crack a wrist or a knuckle without mitts.

I do hit bags hard ! If I hav'int hit them in a while then I build up to full force. I don't want to go into the "these guys hit hard and wear gloves training" thing because if it works for them, great. I'm just not comfortable in them.

Classic security post there Mark. That has happened to me also.

"Oh the poor man"

"Call an ambulance for him"

The poor man had thrown a glass one staff member of the hotel I was working in, and tried to hit me with a stool. In the course of me restraining him and escorting him out the door. He got a cut on his lip and bit it to make it worse. Struggled all the way out to the doors and went limp when I got him to the footpath. Like he was dieing. The guards came and knew him as an insurance scammer that started fights around town for claims.

Forgot to add that he kept spitting the blood at me and all over himself :rolleyes: Maggot :mad:

mark.leonard

If anyone out there learns specific techniques against different attacks off by heart then quite simply they are a world class idiot. You could do that headlock escape 1000 times in training and then on the street someone grabs you who is stronger/heavier and has your face impaled on a belt buckle. You never know, you train to adapt to any situation unless you believe the guy on the street will let go and apologise when you say “hey you’re in the wrong stance and your arm isn’t straight”

If you do the headlock escape 100 times in training with fully resisting parters of varying body types it will definitely help you in whatever arena you find yourself in. I don't think its specific defence vs. specific attack as much as escapes from different positions.
Its definitley not the ONLY escape form there (though it is quite a good one), whenever you hit that position you cue the escape, if your attacker is clued in to what you are doing he may be able to block your escape and you will have to transition to another one. Becasue this is a technical escape independant of attributes, against an untrained fighter you would have a pretty strong chance of success, in so far as you can predict the outcome of any scenario of a million variables!

Dyr

shooting this thread back off on a previous angle: punching and breaking stuff. I found this while searching for something else . Thought that it might be of interest:

9/16/2004: Broken Hands and Broken Promises

Ahhh, yes, the almighty, indefensible, Bruce Lee, Wing Chun, super-duper, battle punch. The cure for cancer. The Mike Tyson stopper. Fear no man! Slay all!

A closed fist strike has a strong chance of fracturing your hand in the middle of a fight. Some experts say a 50-50 chance. A few of my boxer friends report that their hands have broken/fractured so painfully in the first punch of a street fight that they dropped to their knees in agony. (Remember boxers are not used to making solid fists inside their padded gloves.) One of the biggest injuries amongst the NHB fighters is a damaged hand from punching the skull of the ducking head.

Others may continue the fight after the hand injury. In a large group fight with soldiers while I was in South Korea as an MP, I delivered several punches to a ducking head that only slightly fractured my left hand. I, as so many can do, continued the fight. But my hand quickly swelled up and I had to have a ring hack-sawed off my finger within the hour.

But what of this battle punch? The machine gun, rotating center-line, vertical fists, “straight blast?” Works REAL well in the air, huh? Real good hitting focus mitts, huh? There are a few reality success stories and then…quite a few failures. Now that I think of it, about 50-50! One major instructor of the battle punch fractured both his fists in a second actually hitting a guy’s head. Boom. Boom. Both hands out of the fight. In one second. This has happened to him more than once. Yet, he is captured in his system to teach the technique’s invincibility. Been teaching it for years, too many videos made on it and can’t stop now. All at your expense and danger, bubba.

Look at all the people wearing bag gloves and boxing gloves happily punching away on focus mitts in classes, in the name of learning self-defense and street fighting. This warning and reality is virtually ignored in systems like JKD, Wing Chun, versions of Krav Maga, and others. I even see this foolishness at major gun ranges now claiming to teach self-defense, too. At least in straight kickboxing, boxing and Thai, they don’t advertise themselves as street fighting courses!

In Karate years ago we pounded our fists on wood until it was shaped like a Klingon’s with dead nerves. No one warned us we couldn’t hold a coffee cup 30 years later in the gnarled, numb, arthritic lump once called a hand.

The receiver of your battle punch? He stills gets punched and it hurts! But what of your hand? I have written and talked about this many times, as has others. Most combat vets prefer the palm strike, hammer fist etc. If your doctrine is smart, if your system uses maximum common sense and strategy, it de-emphasizes and explains the pros and cons of punching, single or “straight blast.” Limit your punching to the neck and below. Hit something hard with something soft. Hit something soft with something hard.

I hate to burst your super-hero bubble, but…just charging in doing a straight blast…is kinda’ dumb about half the time.

* * *

[URL=http://]http://www.hockscqc.com/blogs/index-9-04.htm[/URL]

mark.leonard

Doesn't sound overly scientific, but there is a case to be made for not punching someone in the head. Now the jaw - totally different matter!
Thai leg kick anyone?

Roper

I wasn't specifically making a point about punching in SD being your only option. My point was more that when paniced a punch would be the thing most people would throw. I have no idea what the battle punch is either.

My real point was that training without proper protection for your hands is a v-bad idea. And the fact remains that you simply cannot hit something as hard as you are capable of doing without protection! I'm not going all out to pick at anybody's training methods, I'm merely pointing out some scientific fact.

I do hit bags hard ! If I hav'int hit them in a while then I build up to full force. I don't want to go into the "these guys hit hard and wear gloves training" thing because if it works for them, great. I'm just not comfortable in them.

I'm not disputing how hard you hit, like I said whatever floats your boat and all.
The "These guys" I'm talking about are boxers. They do it as a matter of course and safety not as a matter of comfort. I'm not attacking you here Paul, I'm just making a point about safety gear!

How off topic is this?

mark.leonard

Could we BE any more off topic?

pma-ire

Again I'm not a mod. But maybe we should look at our posts before we put them up, and if they spread then we should take the split to another thread. I can't imagine anyone coming on here and trying to read the top posted threads all the way through. Which is a pity, they have some great thoughs and discussions in them.

Roper

We are like, SO off topic!

And now with our off topic musings, we have drifted further still!

Colm_OReilly

The whole punching technique vs bareknuckle injuries is a prime example of a straw man argument. My point was that punching someone, the technique that is used, is fundamentally the same no matter what the environment. People then beganing attacking the risks of punching someone in the dreaded street. Not in itself an unworthy topic, but not addressing the point. Anyway, the punching thing was only used as an example.

About hand injuries and casualty. From our sports injuries course we learnt that when people report to A&E they have usually damaged their ring and little finger, a result of punching poorly.

I don't mind topics meandering about if they serve a purpose and generate a reasonable debate.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

Roper

I don't mind topics meandering about if they serve a purpose and generate a reasonable debate.

Nazi!

As for the punching technique, what Colm said. He put it slightly better than I.