Car Transporter - Insurance ?

Silvera

Have any of you guys taken out insurance cover on your car/jeep/van for towing a car transporter trailer (on a B licence) ? Cost ?

Silvera

Seth Brundle

I have never needed to.
On a similar note, would the insurance company ask if you are licenced to pull a trailer (category EB)?

BrianD3

Silvera does your normal car insurance not cover you for towing a trailer. I would have thought it would assuming you have the correct licence for the trailer, the trailer complies with regulations, towing vehicle is suitable, and the trailer is not being used for commercial purposes etc.

AFAIK the only insurance company that charges extra to cover towing is Quinn Direct.

And naturally the trailer (+ contents) will not be covered once the trailer is unhitched from the towing vehicle.

BrianD3

samo

Had to pay extra thru axa direct for cover to include towing a trailer - was only approx €15 for the year though.

Silvera

AFAIK, standard car insurance covers towing a domestic trailer only i.e. not transporters or caravans.

As for licence categories........

A 'B' licence will suffice provided that :-

1. The trailer's gross vehicle weight is less than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle and,
2. The gross weight of both combined does not exceed 3500kg.

For example -
Car Transporter trailer GVW = 1400kg
Vehicle ULW = 1500kg
(Vehicle GVW = 2000kg)
Combined GVW = 3400kg ........ therefore a 'B' licence will suffice.

The only case where a 'B' licence holder can exceed this is if your vehicle has a GVW of 3500kg (e.g. large van) then you can only tow a trailer with a GVW of 750kg (e.g domestic trailer) Combined GVW = 4250kg.


I will have to look into the extra cover (if necessary) for a transporter trailer.

I somehow suspect that most insurance companies automatically think that a driver must have an 'EB' licence to tow a trailer !

Alfasudcrazy

I have a car transporter which I tow with my VW Caddy van 1.9TDI.
I am insured through Hibernian on a comercial policy - even though its a private vehicle. (This is the only policy they offer on vans)
I renewed it in early December and casually asked if I was covered to tow "a trailer" - they said yes but when I mentioned that the "trailer" was a car transporter they said that that was not what they meant by a trailer and immediately had an emergency boardroom meeting about it - I was not invited. :mad:
When they emerged they asked me what I used it for and when I explained that I have a few classic cars and need to be able to move them about they agreed to insure my Caddy at no extra cost. I was insured to tow a car transporter for transporting classic cars for my own private purposes.
I somehow ended up having an EB licence - but the insurance company never asked me anything about this?

Seth Brundle

Re: B or EB licence:-
https://www.drivingtest.ie/drivingtest/secure/CategoryDescriptions.asp
B = Cars and light vans - Vehicles with passenger accomodation for not more than 8 persons and having a design G.V.W. not over 3,500kg.
EB = Vehicles in Category B with trailer attached

BrianD3

The description of B and EB licences on drivingtest.ie gives the impression that you cannot tow a trailer unless you have an EB licence. This impression is wrong and Silvera's post in this thread re: licence categories, weights etc. explains the situation properly.

The other thing to pay attention to when towing is max train weight of towing vehicle and max permissible trailer weight. I can't remember whether this second figure is quoted as max d.g.v.w of trailer or actual weight of trailer + load. Anyone know are these weights legally binding and are you uninsured if you exceed them. I woudl never exceed them myself although there are huge numbers of Irish trailer drivers who completely ignore them.

BrianD3

Seth Brundle

Fair enough Brian, but which side of the coin do the gardai and the insurance company follow?

BrianD3

As regards B and EB licences, in my experience the gardai do not enforce this at all. There are countless drivers out there who hold B licences and are towing trailers which require an EB licence. If they have an accident and the insurance compnay finds out they will be uninsured.

For drivers who hold the correct licence for their trailer, don't exceed permissible towing weights and are not using the trailer for commercial purposes on private car insurance I don't see how they could be uninsured. Unless there is a specific clause in their insurance policy stating that trailer towing is not covered. Also, I don't see how a car trailer is any different to any other type of trailer, how could it be, it's just a trailer carrying a certain cargo just like a boat trailer with a boat, a builders trailer carrying bricks, a horsebox with horses etc.

BrianD3

Capt'n Midnight

Silvera wrote:

I somehow suspect that most insurance companies automatically think that a driver must have an 'EB' licence to tow a trailer !

I couldn't find it on my license or on the http://www.oasis.gov.ie/transport/motoring/categories_of_motor_vehicles_and_minimum_age_of_drivers_in_ireland.html site or in the rules of the road (June 1995 - is there a newer one ?)

But found this linkie ...

http://www.gov.ie/debates-03/25Nov/Sect11.htm

Licensing Regulations.

269. Mr. Kehoe asked the Minister for Transport if a person, details supplied, in County Wexford is entitled to drive category E and B vehicles on his licence; if not, the action he must take to be entitled to drive this category of vehicle; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28369/03]

Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): The holder of a category B driving licence entitles that person to drive a vehicle, other than a motorcycle, of up to 3,500 kg and with passenger accommodation not exceeding eight persons. I understand that the person concerned holds a licence to drive a category B vehicle.

The holder of a category B driving licence may draw a trailer where the drawing vehicle is in category B and the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle and the total design gross vehicle weight of the combination does not exceed 3500 kg, the drawing vehicle is in category B and the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed 750 kg.

To draw a trailer in other circumstances with a category B vehicle a category EB driving licence must be held. To obtain a category EB licence the person must obtain a provisional licence for that category and successfully undergo a category EB driving test.

That's a lot of conditions, not options.

"and the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed 750 kg." - this means that the trailer and load must be less than 750Kg which effectively rules out cars weighing more than 700Kg ...

Note: "and the total design gross vehicle weight of the combination does not exceed 3500 kg, " - this effectivley rules out ANY trailers on most SUV's and larger 4X4 since many have a GROSS design weight of over 3,500Kg by themselves.

Silvera

Indded re B and EB licences, I phoned the Dept of Environment Licencing section back in 1993 and asked what was the situation regarding a B licence and towing trailers. I was told
"A 'B' Licence only allows you to tow a trailer with a GVW of 750kg i.e. a 'domestic' trailer".
After that phone call, I was pleased that I at least could tow a trailer, albeit a small one.

However, as we now know, this is not the case regarding B licence holders !

I first became aware that I could possibly tow a larger trailer after I read the UK regulations on their DVLA website back in Feb 2003. I persumed that their regs should be the same as our because we both have EU driver licencing regs now. http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/dl_towing_trailers.htm
(No 2 'Car Driving Licences first obtained since 1 January 1997'
N.B. the UK authorities use 'MAM' instead of GVW/ULW).

I presumed correctly !

I wrote to our Dept of Transport in late Feb 2003 and confirmed that a 'B' licence holder can indeed tow a trailer within the limits I mentioned above. (Although the letter I received was a little confusing, in that it listed what I said above first, and then said "Category B licence holders may tow a trailer with a design gross vehicle weight not exceeding 750kg"
The letter should have added that this applies where the GVW of the towing vehicle is 3500kg (i.e. GVW combination = 4250kg !)
Irish regs = The Road Traffic (Licencing of Drivers) Regulations,1999.

---

Thats interesting, Alfasudcrazy, insurance companies get 'jumpy' if they think you may have anything to do with the motor trade !

I presume you didn't realise that you had category 'EB' on your licence ?


I plan to go for the EB test at a future date, but have yet the hear of anybody who has actually sat the test !
(It's a bit crazy really, I passed my 'C' test a few years ago - which allows me to drive ANY size of rigid truck - but yet I'm not allowed to drive a van
with large trailer attached !!)

Silvera

Capt'n Midnight,

Have a read of the UK regs I linked to above ( No 2, example i )
I really believe that the govt dept here have mis-interpreted the trailer regs re 'B' licences !

Both the UK and Ireland (as the rest of the EU) have standardised licence regs, don't they ?

BrianD3

I had a similar experience to Silvera. Initially I thought I couldn't tow any trailer on my B licence, then I became aware of the 750 kg rule. Then I did more research and got an email from the DOE stating that I could tow a trailer provided the the d.g.v.w or the towing vehicle plus trailer was 3500 kg or less OR the d.g.v.w of the trailer was 750kg or less.

AFAIK the EU initially wanted it so that car licence holders couldn't tow a trailer above 750 kg without doing an additional test, then the British insisted on the 3500 kg rule being added due to the large number of caravanners in their country who would would have been hit had the limit been set at 750 kg.

BrianD3

BrianD3

PS capt'n midnight, the d.g.v.w of most 4x4s woudl be around 2100-2700 kg. Most jeeps have a kerb weight of aroudn 1700-2100 kg and a max payload of around 500-600 kg. I don't know if there are any jeeps on the market with a d.g.v.w weight close to 3500 kg although the Toyota Landcruiser Amazon and new Discovery/Range Rover are probably not too far off.

Therefore you are right - these jeeps are useless for towing a big trailer on a B licence but at the same time, for a big trailer you need a decent sized heavy vehicle such as a 4wd for safety and so that you don't exceed max permissable towing weights stated by the manufacturer.

The more I think about this, the more I'm convinced that the majority of people towing trailers in Ireland are either doing so illegally and uninsured due to having the wrong licence, or else are towing a big trailer with am insufficently heavy vehicle which is dangerous and possibly illegal too.

I see numerous VW Caddys that Alfasud mentioned being use to tow double horseboxes. There is no way in hell that that is safe. I'd be interested to know what the max permissble total train weight of a VW Caddy is...

[edit] leaving aside the trailers for a second, what about US car enthusiasts who import large SUVs, pickups, Hummers etc. and drive them on the roads here. There is no doubt that many of these have a d.g.v.w well in excess of 3500 kg without any trailer attached and therefore require a C1 (small truck or large van) licence.

BrianD3

Seth Brundle

...but who is going to stop them? Certainly not the Gardai!

BrianD3

The gardai are next to useless when it comes to enforcing the law on licences, weights etc. The only way this law will be obeyed (and even then not by everyone) is if people realise that they're actually driving uninsured if they're pulling to heavy a trailer on a B licence.

All it takes is one insurance company to cop itself on about what's happening and using trailer weights as a (perfectly valid) excuse not to pay out in the event of a claim.

BrianD3

Silvera

Perhaps the new Traffic Corps will begin to enforce such regs once they are 'up and running' ?

After all, traffic law/regs is their 'speciality' !


I'm starting to get a little confused after Capt'n Midnight's link to a Dail debate re licences

The govt seem to be stating that B licence holders can ONLY tow a trailer with a GVW of 750kg - and nothing bigger

Yet the UK govt site says differently ?
Did the UK gets a 'dispensation' from the EU licence rules ?


BrianD3,

I specifically asked the 'up to 3500kg combination OR dgvw of 750kg or less' question ............ however the letter I recieved did not state an "either - OR' in response ?


I have seen new car transporters with a dgvw of 1400kg - therefore copuled with a vehicle with a unladen weight of say, 1500kg, it would come under the UK 'B' licence regs - but what about in Ireland ???

Capt'n Midnight

BrianD3 wrote:

caravanners

oh that would explain it.

Silvera - as for Irish ministers not knowing road traffic law, "good car , good day , good road , good driver , good loophole"
though the fact that we have yet to enable about 40 other EU directives may not help

BrianD3 - something that weighs as much/is as big as a car is fine, it's the Bigger SUV's that weigh much more that need a C1 license. Be nice to see the guards asking people in those monsters to show thier licences at a checkpoint - "sorry love, you can come back for it when you've passed your driving test"

BrianD3

Silvera wrote:

I specifically asked the 'up to 3500kg combination OR dgvw of 750kg or less' question ............ however the letter I recieved did not state an "either - OR' in response ?

Come to think of it the email I received didn't state "OR", however, it didn't state "AND" either. I deleted the mail but from what I recall the 750kg rule and the 3500 kg rule were mentioned in different paragraphs and in such a way that anyone would presume that they they meant OR, not AND. However it was not explicitly stated. Perhaps the civil servant who wrote it wasn't sure and was covering his ass

After this email and knowing the UK regs, I assumed that it was OR that was meant. I am also now confused

BrianD3

Capt'n Midnight

Silvera just had a re-read of that link http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/dl_towing_trailers.htm

Note - An exemption from the driver licensing trailer limit allows a category B licence holder to tow a broken down vehicle from a position where it would otherwise cause danger or obstruction to other road users.

By passing a category B test National Categories F (tractor), K (pedestrian controlled vehicle) and P (moped) continue to be added automatically.

First part is common sense,
Second part is NOT done in the ROI

FOUND IT !!!

http://www.transport.ie/roads/licensing/faqs/index.asp?lang=ENG&loc=1838

Q. May I tow a trailer on my full B licence?
A. Yes, provided
(1) the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle and the combination does not exceed 3500kg or
(2) the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed 750kg
If you wish to tow a heavier trailer you will have to apply for a category EB licence.

BrianD3

Thanks for clearing that up capt'n midnight. It appears that the Minister for Transport didn't know what the **** he was talking about in the Dail debate that you mentioned. No wonder the country is in such a state.

I have a couple more questions as regards trailers
1) Does anyone know the legal and insurance situation regarding max towing weights and max train weights as stated on chassis plates and in the handbooks of vehicles
2) Do all trailers of >750kg d.g.v.w have to have their own brakes (I believe this is the case)
3) Do all trailers have to have a plate on the tow hitch stating the max d.g.v.w of the trailer. Again I believe this is the case.

BrianD3

Alun

I took my bog-standard driving licence in the UK back in the 70's and don't recall having anything special on there regarding towing, although this may well have been prior to the European standard groups having been brought in.

In the meantime my licence has been through several exchanges in various European countries ending up in it's current reincarnation as a Dutch licence which mysteriously has both B and EB "enabled" on it. I can't recall at what stage this happened, but I certainly never took any kind of extended test to allow me to tow anything large.

BrianD3

Alun, the rules changed since you got your licence. B, EB and I think C1 used to be awarded automatically when you passed your car test.

I don't know when the rules changed, but it is at least 10 years ago (that's when I got my full B licence)

Of course, there are plenty of people on Irish roads who have never done a driving test and have everything from A to ED on their licences allowing them to drive bascially anything including a coach towing a trailer or an articulated lorry :eek:

BrianD3

Silvera

IIRC, my first provisional licence, in 1989, was the old type of 'folding/non-photo/grey coloured licence. When I renewed it 1 year later, it was the new type (as we now have). Therefore, the 'EU licence' must have been introduced to Ireland in 1990.

Capt'n,
You DO automatically get tractor, pedestrian controlled vehicle and moped when you pass the 'B' test here. However, Category W (tractor and work vehicle e.g. JCB) is no longer listed on licences. Cat M (moped) has never been listed !

Lets hope the new 'credit card-sized licences (whenever they are introduced!) will have greater clarity !!

BrainD3,
re trailer weights - AFAIK, trailers without brakes must not exceed 750kg dgvw (i.e. over that means brakes required).

Further info on UK regs on weights, etc. at: http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/towing.shtml


I too have wondered what is the situation re insurance, licences, weights, etc
when it comes to the 'home made' car trailers and transporters on the roads??
............... and lets face it, there are a lot of 'home made' trailers about !


Has anybody here ever heard of an insurance claim involving a car trailer on tow ?

Also, IIRC the govt introduced a new law in the mid-90's which stated that ALL trailers must have insurance cover when they are detached in a public place.

Anybody else recall this ?

Silvera

BrianD3,
IIRC, when towing a trailer, a person must not exceed the recommended weights on the chassis plate. I presume if a person did exceed these weights, and had an accident, the insurance co. could refuse to pay out for any claim.

Also, vehicles made on or after 2000 (or was it 2001?) may on be fitted with an 'EU compliant' - i.e. not 'home made' - towbar.

Silvera

BTW, check out Capt'n Midnight's Dept of Transport link above, it has info on trailer weights. (I haven't read it yet, need to download Adobe first it seems!)

Silvera

..........:)