Salvaging A Dell

4Xcut

All games can only be run at medium to low options and not without more than occasional lag. Not to sound cheap but i've alreday spent 1500 euro and do not wish to spend more than 235 to 370 on improving it.

my current computer is a dell and is as follows:
1)80Gb ide hard drive
2)nVidia GeForce 5900XT
3)P4 2.66GHZ, 133fsb, 533 bus speed
4)Dell motherboard
5)512 dual channel DDR-SDRAM, 184 pin
6)250w dell power supply

From advice from friends i felt the following would be the best option:
Buy the following parts:
a)Asus P4P800 SE Mainboard for S478/800mhz I865PE,Dual DDR,SATA,Sound,ATA100, GbLAN
b)Thermalright XP-120 CPU-Cooler Socket 478/754/939, (without fan)
c)Q-Tec Midi tower ATX TL-MD2, Silver transparent, (Without PSU)
d)Crucial PC3200 BallistiX DDR 256MB CL2 Non-parity, 2.8V, 32Meg x 64, 184pin OR
Corsair XMS3200XL DDR-DIMM 512MB PC3200 32Meg x 8, CAS 2-2-2-5, 400MHz
e)sharkoon 350w power supply

And Bulid a new computer with the existing CPU, Graphics Card And Hard Drive aswell as current screen, dvd drive, modem,etc.
I've not decided yet wheather i definately need new ram.

ALL ADVICE WELCOME

RicardoSmith

Which games are you playing. The GeForce 5900XT is really bad at Dx9. So if your games are Dx9 I suggest you get a 6600GT and sell the 5900XT. Newer games also work better with 1GB of ram. You don't mention the speed of your hard disk. But upgrading to a faster one would help aswell. But the gfx card and more ram would make a night and day difference in modern games like HL2, Doom3, Far Cry etc. Older Dx8 titles should be ok on what you have. The 5900XT is a 5900 "lite" but should be ok with older stuff.

You say all games. What does that mean? Solitare? Explain. It could be a software or video driver problem on your PC.

I don't understand why you are buying those parts? Other than the ram, and one stick of 512mb is all you need there. Unless your "friend" has suggested overclocking the CPU, and TBH if you are going that route you might as well build a new rig. A lot more expensive if you ask me.

4Xcut

the whole point of this was to practically build a new rig but still use the more expnsive parts such as graphics card and cpu and over clock them in the new rig. the mobo is to fit the processor. the games i'm speaking of are the likes of far cry , ut2004, deus ex invisable war and the like. it all started when we came to the conclusion that the graphics card was not getting enough power from the dell 250w power supply, then realising a new case would have to be bought due to the fact that dell components seem to fit with nothing else, then a new mobo was needed. would i be better just getting a better power supply from dell so as the graphics card can run at full potential. buying a new rig is unfortunatly out of the question due to financial shortcomings.

MagicBusDriver

A new graphics card is the first thing I would try to improve performance. 1GB of ram would help. A new motherboard case etc is abit extreme.

4Xcut

Is it not cheaper and therefore better to get new case, mobo, etc. and overclock the grafix card and cpu. this is the replacement grafix card of the crap one they gave me.

RicardoSmith

Overclocking is not going to give you the boost you need. You need a better gfx card. End of story. The 5900xt isn't all that great for Dx9. Ok for Dx8, but there are better cards out there. Check out this benchmark...

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2281&p=3

If you don't have the budget to replace the machine, then don't the components which don't effect your gaming speed. Overclocking is only going to give you 10-15% more speed at best. Whereas a new gfx card like the 6600GT could give you 200% more speed in games.

How do you know the Dell isn't going to give you enough power. Theres a lot of crap talked about power supplies and what you need. Theres shuttle systems with 250w and less powering high end gfx cards.

Invader Zim

4Xcut wrote:

it all started when we came to the conclusion that the graphics card was not getting enough power from the dell 250w power supply, then realising a new case would have to be bought due to the fact that dell components seem to fit with nothing else, then a new mobo was needed.

What possible bearing would the PSU have on graphics preformance?!?

A PSU is PSU. Some are quieter, cooler etc - but all they do is supply electricity to the part of the PC that do the actual work, they themselves have no bearing on maths preformance.

RicardoSmith

Invader Zim wrote:

What possible bearing would the PSU have on graphics preformance?!?

A PSU is PSU. Some are quieter, cooler etc - but all they do is supply electricity to the part of the PC that do the actual work, they themselves have no bearing on maths preformance.

The newer high end cards need extra power. So they take if from the PSU rather than the AGP slot. The problem is not the amount of power but if the PSU gives a steady high quality supply. Cheaper supplies tend to give an uneven supply which can effect the stability of the system. If you have the machine stuffed with drives and add on cards and are running a high end cpus and overclocking it then you might need a more powerful psu. But for "most" PC's even those using high end gfx cards you don't need that much power. Just a high qulality one that supplies steady power.

Dells generally don't have a problem, though. Incidentally the 5900XT is one of the more demanding cards. Newer cards actually need less power than a 5900XT.

Invader Zim

RicardoSmith wrote:

The newer high end cards need extra power. So they take if from the PSU rather than the AGP slot. The problem is not the amount of power but if the PSU gives a steady high quality supply. Cheaper supplies tend to give an uneven supply which can effect the stability of the system. If you have the machine stuffed with drives and add on cards and are running a high end cpus and overclocking it then you might need a more powerful psu. But for "most" PC's even those using high end gfx cards you don't need that much power. Just a high qulality one that supplies steady power.

Dells generally don't have a problem, though. Incidentally the 5900XT is one of the more demanding cards. Newer cards actually need less power than a 5900XT.

That's not my point.

If your PC is working stablily with one PSU then another, higher rated one, WILL NOT AND CANNOT improve math preformance.

padraigf

Some cards throttle when not receiving enough power. Not sure if the 5900XT is one of them, but I have heard a few different times that some cards throttle when not receiving enough juice.
If I was you 4XCut I would start saving for a new PC instead. Dell = Dogpuke

RicardoSmith

padraigf wrote:

Some cards throttle when not receiving enough power. Not sure if the 5900XT is one of them, but I have heard a few different times that some cards throttle when not receiving enough juice.
If I was you 4XCut I would start saving for a new PC instead. Dell = Dogpuke

I've never heard that. I know that some of them won't boot and just flash a message on screen if you don't hook up the extra power connector. If the card isn't getting enough power you'll get instability.

Invader Zim wrote:

That's not my point.

If your PC is working stablily with one PSU then another, higher rated one, WILL NOT AND CANNOT improve math preformance.

The connection for the gfx card and bigger psu, is if you overclock the card its needs even more power. Thats the connection that has led to the idea of replacing the board, psu and overclocking the existing card. But that will cost the same as just getting new gfx card. So its pointless. Overclocking the card will improve the performance but not by a huge amount.

dixsey

4Xcut wrote:

the whole point of this was to practically build a new rig but still use the more expnsive parts such as graphics card and cpu and over clock them in the new rig. the mobo is to fit the processor. the games i'm speaking of are the likes of far cry , ut2004, deus ex invisable war and the like. it all started when we came to the conclusion that the graphics card was not getting enough power from the dell 250w power supply, then realising a new case would have to be bought due to the fact that dell components seem to fit with nothing else, then a new mobo was needed. would i be better just getting a better power supply from dell so as the graphics card can run at full potential. buying a new rig is unfortunatly out of the question due to financial shortcomings.

i,ve a 1 year old dell 4600 and i bought an x800xt pe and replaced the 250 w psu with a jeantech 400 w and it fitted no problem, it did,nt make any difference but adding 512mb of ram did (i had 512mb now 1 gb).

davidclayton

i'm thinking of selling my shuttle with a cpu and gfx.
depending on how much i get offered, i will or won't sell.
see my thread here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=216260

let me know if you're interested in the sapphire.
dave

Invader Zim

padraigf wrote:

Some cards throttle when not receiving enough power. Not sure if the 5900XT is one of them, but I have heard a few different times that some cards throttle when not receiving enough juice.

Can you find ANY links to back this up?

I have NEVER heard of a card doing this.
Some mobile (as in laptop) gfx cards can trottle their cores but this is to conserve battery power - once on mains they don't.

RicardoSmith

dixsey wrote:

i,ve a 1 year old dell 4600 and i bought an x800xt pe and replaced the 250 w psu with a jeantech 400 w and it fitted no problem, it did,nt make any difference but adding 512mb of ram did (i had 512mb now 1 gb).

Did you benchmark the machine before you added the x800xt pe afterwards and then again when you added more RAM?

Not all Dells need the ATX connector rewired but most of them do. Other than the connector they are standard ATX PSU.

Gilgamesh

the thing is, Dell as a lot of other companies used to use their own standards for components, this changed when ATX came out.
all PCs used a standard now, being it ATX, ITX or whatnot.

regarding the 'Stronger PSU, more power' Idea, this is total nonsense.
A Graphicscard will either work in 3D or not, depending if it has enough power, but that it would throttle itself would be a joke,
a Radeon 9800Pro for example requires 85 Watts of power.
IF it isn't fed this power from the PSU, then it won't work, end of story.
As Zim said, the only ones to manipulate any power issue themselves are the new Radeon cards and mobile processors, but the first change the core voltage to overclock themselves, and the mobiles do this to save battery performance, when not nedded. they do not change the wattage.
just imagine saying that if you drive slowly anyway, you could replace the Car battery in your car, with a Duracell AA battery.
the best tip to give you would really be, get a new Graphics card.
if the PSU can't handle it (250 Watts should, unless you have tons of other components that are power hungry), then also get a new PSU.
high quality PSUs, just ensure that the power is transferred constantly without any 'glitches' so all components get their power in a constant flow, as required by any PC.


Ragarding the 'not notiving any difference' comment from dixsey, I can only ask the following,

1. didn't you notice any difference in 2D or 3D mode.
2D mode you won't notice much difference, unless you really max the Res of you display properties, also the picture ay be much sharper, depending from which graphicscard you are coming from

2. what benchmarks did you run to make the comment that there isn't much difference? if you run 3Dmark03 or 05, then you would probably notice that with the new card, some benchmarks will run that weren't there while running with the old card.

3. make sure that the benchmark settings are the same.
it is a fact that a X800Pro, or higher, will outrun a 9800Pro by way over 100% in Dx9 Games. now this is noticable, plus it normally automatically activates other graphics enhancing features like Smartshader, in a newer version to even partially improve quality in older games. Freelancer is a very good example for this.

Gilgamesh

Oh and, Increasing system memory will allways have a noticeable improvement on your system, as the PC isn't so dependent on shared memory from your HDD, which, having 512MB can get very full, very fast.

RicardoSmith

If you are overclocking the gfx you can raise the AGP volts (on some boards) Which therefore requires more power. You'll also be overclocking other components like the motherboard, you can raise the chipset voltage, memory voltage and you can raise the CPU voltage, all of which require more power. If your PSU can't handle this you will get the power on the different lines wavering which leads to instability. More power = more stability at higher overclocks which = more speed.

Dell have ATX PSU but they have a habit of rewiring the motherboard connector to a non standard ATX. They also have non ATX standard layout to their motherboards, especially on their workstations. I have about 5 in front of me and none of them are ATX. They are puesdo ATX. Occasionally they do one with a standard connector. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to why they do it on some models and not on others.

Increasing the system memory won't always improve the speed. You'll see little advantage in going over 1gb for example.

Gilgamesh

the wattage of a PSU has absolutley nothing to do with the stability of the system.
IF a PC requires more power (Watts) than the PSU can supply, the system will either constantly reboot itself, or it won't start at all.
it's easy enough to replicate on other devices, try running a TV remote, which needs 2 AA batteries on a single battery, you will notice it will not work.
the only way to have a more stable system (even while overclocking) is to have more phases in the PSU.
this will provide a more stable current.
if you are overclocking, then it is only adviseable to have a slightly stronger PSU, just for the sake that it can provide more power, if required, to the components.
if you would upgrade from a 5900XT to a X800 there wouldn't really be much requirement to OC anyway imo.

Regarding the Dell issue,
the only PCs they don't use standard components are the Workstations, but only because of the reason, that they mainly use Laptop components to build these, as they are much smaller and normally then don't require any pesky and noisy colling solutions.
the Dimension series PCs from them use Standard PC parts.
ATX ist not used for the Workstations from them, same as by the ones from HP and whatnot

RicardoSmith

Gilgamesh wrote:

the wattage of a PSU has absolutley nothing to do with the stability of the system...

IF a PC requires more power (Watts) than the PSU can supply, the system will either constantly reboot itself, or it won't start at all.

Is that not contradictory? Either having a sufficent quality power supply effects stability or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.

Gilgamesh wrote:

...if you are overclocking, then it is only adviseable to have a slightly stronger PSU, just for the sake that it can provide more power, if required, to the components.
...

Why would more power be required? Either it is required or it isn't. If it is required then its logical to say that overclocking requires more power.

I'm not confusting the issue with volts, watts etc. PSU are rated by watts. Though I know thats not the full picture since a stable current is what you actually need. But thats too much information for anyone thats not too technical.

..and...

The Dell Dimensions I have here are not ATX standard neither are the P4 or Xeon workstations we have, which use standard desktop components not laptop ones. The motherboards aren't ATX standard mounting either. But then we have some desktops which do have standard ATX PSUs.

RicardoSmith

But I agree with you, that the only logical route is to get a more powerful gfx card, not muck about overclocking. Overclocking doesn't save money, theres risks involved so you shouldn't do it if you can't afford to replace the parts. The gains can be marginal unless you know what you are doing and you have the right gear in the first place.

Gilgamesh

RicardoSmith wrote:

Is that not contradictory? Either having a sufficent quality power supply effects stability or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.



Why would more power be required? Either it is required or it isn't. If it is required then its logical to say that overclocking requires more power.

okay, maybe I should have formulated this a bit better.
I am not saying that a high quality PSU is better, normally it is, that is why it is called High quality, hehe.
what I am saying is, that if the system you have built uses less than 250 Watts (like in this case) then you may aswell keep the power supply.
this does not determine the stability of the power been supplied by the PSU to the PC. if you want something that provides more stability to the power, you need a PSU with higher qulity Phases, or better a 6 Phase PSU.
Just because you have a 360 Watt power supply, it won't be more stable than running a 250 Watt PSU, when only 200Watts are required, if only gives you more leeway to add more components or even overclock.
200 Watt power requirement with a 250 Watt PSU, means you have 50 watts available for other components in the system, if upgraded.
Using 350 Watts oviously you have 150 Watts left, which will give you more than enough space for overclocking and stuff, hope this explains it better.

An unstable system in my definition means that the PC runs, but you get Graphical faults, bad responses, unsharp picture.
this is not the case if your PSU is too weak for the Hardware plugged to it.

the system just won't start, or will hang in the startup screen if not enough power is there, as it cannot provide the power needed for startup the components. Some PSU have a fuse which will jump out if the power requirement is too high for the PSU

About the Dell thing, I think I will take a bow and step back on it, they probably so have different configs, but then again I don't know a XEON System which runs a ATX standard. though they used a different Standard anyway.

RicardoSmith

I dunno where you going with the PSU thing. Its the quality of 5v and 12v lines thats important. A low quality PSU will not put out a steady 5v. Sometimes they wont even measure up to 5v at all. Ditto the 12v. That effects the stability of the PC. More so if you are overclocking since you are making small and precise adjustments to the power to the chipset, agp, cpu and ram. You can't so that without a steady line.

Heres a list of Xeon boards. You can see they use a mix of ATX and extended ATX http://www.technoland.com/supermicro_index.htm Unless its a Dell of course...

We all agree he needs a new gfx and more ram.

Gilgamesh

I agree with the 5v 12v thing, but this isn't resolved by the wattage of the PSU, but by the quality of the components used in the power supply.
let's just keep it a that, or we will be arguing about this all night long.

tbh, haven't really spent much time with XEON systems, so I will not go into that one.

But do agree that RAM and Graphics card are the best solution for the PC

padraigf

No, Gilgamesh. Repeating the same thing over and over again doesnt make it right. Your power supply can affect system stability. What if all you do is mess around windows usually then you go into a 3d program or game? Then the power supply load will be more than normal, leading to possible crashes. Its not just a case that it will definetly crash (unless its way over what the supply is capable of).

Watts are just a rubbish marketing rating that noobs fall for anyway. If you want to know how good the supply is, see how many amps it puts out on the rails that matter to you. For example the Thermaltake Purepower Butterflies only do 18A on the 12v line even though they are rated at 480watts. Theres no way I'd run my system on that 480watt supply, even though it works quite happily on this 380watt Antec (28A on 12v). If you're going to try to give definitive answers with no room for questioning please try to have a clue...
Anyway, if he gets a new graphics card hes going to want a new supply to run it. Some el-cheapo Dell 250w will not run a new mid to top range card. Radeon 9800 and GeForce 6600GT upwards are all power hogs. That p4 is probably eating at least 100watts of his power by itelf as it is!
You should never put components in a system that will load a power supply right up to its rating. They arent 100% efficient and if run at full load theyre going to heat your whole room and eventually go bang.

RicardoSmith

If a Shuttle can run a less than a 250w PSU then so can a Dell. A 5900xt is going to use more power than a new 6600gt or 9800pro. So if he can run the 5900xt then he can run a 6600gt or 9800pro. Also Dell sell these systems with 9800's.

Sigh... :cool:

Gurgle

Gilgamesh wrote:

okay, maybe I should have formulated this a bit better.
I am not saying that a high quality PSU is better, normally it is, that is why it is called High quality, hehe.
what I am saying is, that if the system you have built uses less than 250 Watts (like in this case) then you may aswell keep the power supply.
this does not determine the stability of the power been supplied by the PSU to the PC. if you want something that provides more stability to the power, you need a PSU with higher qulity Phases, or better a 6 Phase PSU.
Just because you have a 360 Watt power supply, it won't be more stable than running a 250 Watt PSU, when only 200Watts are required, if only gives you more leeway to add more components or even overclock.
200 Watt power requirement with a 250 Watt PSU, means you have 50 watts available for other components in the system, if upgraded.
Using 350 Watts oviously you have 150 Watts left, which will give you more than enough space for overclocking and stuff, hope this explains it better.

An unstable system in my definition means that the PC runs, but you get Graphical faults, bad responses, unsharp picture.
this is not the case if your PSU is too weak for the Hardware plugged to it.

the system just won't start, or will hang in the startup screen if not enough power is there, as it cannot provide the power needed for startup the components. Some PSU have a fuse which will jump out if the power requirement is too high for the PSU

You're making the classic mistake of thinking that everyone who can build PCs know something about how the components work.
Think expensive lego, thats all it is to most PC builders :rolleyes:

padraigf wrote:

Watts are just a rubbish marketing rating that noobs fall for anyway

4Xcut

Thanx for the advice. however on reflection i just can't put more money into a money pit, i think its safe to say that the dell cannot be improved by the degree i would like without severe wallet injury, which i wouldn't mind if the outcome was as certain as the preformence i would get on a new rig. what about a new rig in a couple of months. what should i look to buy spending aroung around a grand to 1200 on it, keeping in mind i will keep the moniter, dvd drive and modem. could the cpu be kept and overclocked in a new rig? i appreciate that i probably should by a new grfx card but something like a 6600 doesn't deserve to be condemed to a dell. by the way how much of a difference is there in preformance between a ide hard drive and a serial ata one,
would it greatly effect the preformence of modern games

padraigf

Theres very little to no performance difference between S-ATA and IDE. Either is fine. Some motherboards can only use RAID with their SATA ports though, but I doubt that that would matter to you since RAID might be excessive.

btw, Gurgle, were you agreeing or mocking ?
Just to clarify I meant that the Wattage rated on a power supply is often exaggerated by the manufacturer or measured in ridiculous unlikely conditions, leading to a useless rating.

RicardoSmith

Buy the 6600GT and you can move it to a new systems later. Alternatively get a 3000+ A64 and overclock the brains out of it. But the 5900xt will still be the bottle neck. TBH I think you just want rid of the Dell...

padraigf

Can you blame the guy?

But yes in all honesty a 6600gt would probably give that machine a good kick up the backside and have you playing plenty of games just fine.
About the idea of using your P4 chip in your next pc, it would be better to keep that dell in one piece and sell it, putting that money towards the new one. Once you split it, i'd imagine that it would be worth a lot less.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/ati-vs-nv-power_10.html just found this, and im quite surprised at how little juice all the latest and greatest use. So much for nVidia and their recommended 400 - 450w PSUs!