Good Play & Patience V Gut Feelings and Lack of Concern. On and Offline play...

Iago

Feel free to comment if any of the below hits a chord, but I'm really just talking to myself out loud here..

Having played Hold 'Em for around 10 months now (I know I'm a real veteran) I find myself questioning the improved version of my game against how I used to play when I started out.

I think DeV in particular will remember the flush draws that I used to call with when I had 3 suited cards and a high pair after the flop. One tournament always comes to mind, I beat him in 3 hands in a row all-in chasing flush draws each time, when he had by far the best of it after the flop I think I at least had the good grace to apologise at the time!

Now I find myself getting royally pi$$ed when others do the same thing to me, or lamenting that I folded Q8o when the flop hits some or all of it and so on and so forth. I made the final table in the fitz €20 in game 5 times out of 6 in my first 6 tournaments played and now have only made 1 final table in the last 10-12, so was I just very very lucky, or is there something to be said about playing a lot looser than I currently am. Should I move to the higher stakes games where there are less drawing hands being played, or should I just loosen up in the €20 game. I suppose another fact of the early days is that although I made the final table almost 100% of the time, I generally used all my rebuys as well, whereas I have only topped up whenever I've played recently.

I'm showing more patience and waiting for hands to play and I'm folding correctly in most cases (I think) but I'm not having the same success rate at all. Online I'm doing quite well, mainly because a tight and conservative game is what you require online. Tight when you have nothing and aggresive when you hit a hand, but offline I think that sometimes you are better off taking a chance or playing aggresively even when you don't always have the best of it.

I would rate myself as an average or maybe slightly below average player at the moment, and as a result even though I find that I'm getting to the last 20-30 consistently I'm struggling to break back into that top 10 run that I had when I was less experienced and more willing to gamble on the luck of the draw.

I've been unlucky with hands recently, or maybe just playing the wrong hands, for example the last night in the fitz I folded K8o preflop and the flop was KK3, next hand I was dealt k8o again, folded again, flop was K86, next hand I got QQ, raised 2xBB got raised all-in and beaten when AKo hit an A on the flop...There was a lot of action on the first two hands though and in both cases I'd of had the best of it. Leaving me with a much bigger stack, which might have allowed me to get away from QQ after the flop with the A.

Maybe I'm thinking too much about it, I probably just need to keep playing in what I beleive is the right way, play more and it'll even itself out.

mewso

This is something I have been thinking about myself. It seems like I was much more successful when I first started playing but in my case I was playing with a couple of Sklansky books fresh in my mind. Not to say Sklansky was the whole reason. I think the biggest problem playing the tight-aggressive game is being too rigid about it. Having said that though K8 is a rag hand every time no matter what and if you hit a monster with it then luck has played a part. I don't think we want to rely on luck all the time do we?
I hope to improve my game over time and I do believe experience is important. Stick with it. Try a few different things. Read more etc. The usual advice. Even listen to Hector from time to time

Imposter

I could have wrote that too except in my case it would only be 6 months playing. Strange thing is after have 2 pretty bad beats go against me at the weekend where i had a lot of money (relative to the blinds for the mega high stakers here!) in the pot (see other thread, the other was a 4-outer), I sat into a Limit game and proceeded to call 2 hands that I shouldn't have going by pot or implied odds (I thought, wrongly, that my opponent was bluffing) and both of them hit to beat the hand that he was representing. It wasn't for as much money as I had lost previously but it got rid of my frustations.

Lafortezza

Bluff and semi-bluff more?
I've been reading Alan Schoonmakers "Psychology of Poker" over Christmas and it spells out the different player types and what makes each work and the mental reasoning and motives behind each one.
Tight and aggressive simply wins you most money over time.
The thing is though how do you define "tight", it differs depending on whether your at the second last table of a big tournament or playing the freeroll.

Maybe you need to concentrate on your reads of people more, and then pick your spots to bluff/semi-bluff/bluff-reraise when you think they're weak. Its not all about cards and whether you hit or not.

I read an article about Negreanu playing the hands that his buddy folded in a semi-serious mid limit cash game. He came out with a little profit by playing some ones discards...

Dub13

I am only playing 2/3 months and I am at the stage of adjusting from the freeroll to the other tournament's.That dam freeroll....its to blame for me going out of a few proper tournament's.I think I have/had "freeroll mindset",I think I played the freeroll two much at the start,and we all know the freeroll is a game on its own.

careca

lafortezza wrote:

I've been reading Alan Schoonmakers "Psychology of Poker" over Christmas and it spells out the different player types and what makes each work and the mental reasoning and motives behind each one.

Love to borrow that off you Luke when you are finished ??

Hitman Actual

Iago, interesting post...

My opinion is that, at ten months in, you're just hitting your first 'Wall'. You're running a bit card-cold, the results are down, and the doubts start to surface, which in turn affects your play... a vicious cycle. If you're happy with your play, then just keep plugging away. Plus, there's a danger in over-analysing your game and making too many alterations, which could just make matters worse.

A couple of points, though:
1. Playing too tight might not be the best strategy in the 20euro re-buy games. I don't play in these games anymore, but I think gambling a bit in the rebuy period might be worth it if you can build up a big stack for the later stages... this sounds like the strategy that was working for you at the start.

2. Your tight-agressive game will work a lot better in the Fitz Monday and Friday games, so it might be worth trying those for a while. The standard is obviously higher, but that in turn leaves a lot more room for 'intelligent' plays.

3. Ten months is probably not long enough to analyse your results properly. Like I say, I think you're just hitting a cold streak.

From my own experience, I'm playing HE tournies for about 2 1/2 years, and just play the 50euro+ games now. At the start of last year I was getting to 3 out of 4 final tables for about three months... this dried up to not being able to get past the middle stages for ages, even though my play wasn't necessarily any worse. The doubts started to sink in, and I even went so far as to buy "Zen and the Art of Poker"! But before it arrived in the post, my results had picked up again, so I haven't touched it yet. I'll leave it until my next 'Wall'.

Davey Devil

lafortezza wrote:

Bluff and semi-bluff more?

Ah, my two favourite phrases.

They are an essential part of the game and really the difference between an average player and a good player. Anyone can play tight and pick their spots to commit chips but it's how you play the hands you have only hit bottom or second pair. How you play your flush and open ended draws or when you have missed the flop completly. That's the difference.

When players start out playing they are generally very loose. With some experience and reading up they tend to tighen up alot but forget about areas of oppertunity where you can win chips where a tight player unwilling to bluff wouldn't.

Personnally I go through phases where I just can't help myself from throwing the bluff in. All the signs are right, my position is good, it would be bad play not to bluff here. Ah sh!t I'm out again. :rolleyes:

For me it's like a drug but it's learning when are the best times to take it that keeps you alive.

Drakar

I was actually wondering about this whole thing last night. I was playing online (low limit) and was fortunate to be on one of those tables with the weird guy who raises 90% of hands (it is just one guy who logs onto loads of card rooms in an effort to maximise his chances of losing a million right?). I started with $40 and after like 1.5 hrs worked up to $75ish while watching TV. I don't remember what he started with, but he seemed to consistently out perform me (as in kept winning more money). Part of this was because new people would come to the table and when they got reraised they'd fold thinking they were up against a monster, and he'd steal pots. Basically he bet all the way to the river most hands. It was incredible. Perhaps he was just lucky, as he won a few big hands, but he also lost alot of hands and still stayed afloat. I think part of it too was you just have no idea what he has, I saw him playing K8o, 56o, 23s etc. So when he reraises your top pair bet should you go over the top again? Lots of people folded on the river when no flush came on the board etc. I managed to get him down to the end when I had a full house, and he turned over like nothing. Nothing. He was betting all the way.

Anyway, this wasn't a whinge (I was up on what I came in with - sing when you're winning), it's just interesting that someone with a simple strategy was able to keep pace without having to think at all. I've seen other players (the same guy? :P) doing the same thing. It would be interesting to see how that strategy would perform over time. Especially these days when it's trivially easy to write the infamous poker bot.

Lafortezza

Davey Devil wrote:

They are an essential part of the game and really the difference between an average player and a good player. Anyone can play tight and pick their spots to commit chips but it's how you play the hands you have only hit bottom or second pair. How you play your flush and open ended draws or when you have missed the flop completly. That's the difference.

Its one thing that I noticed about my game.
I was playing nice and tight, almost rocklike, and being aggressive when I hit good hands. Thankfully in most of the fitz games people are loose enough that they will pay you off with lesser hands, but in the €100 and €250 game people soon realise and don't give you any action.

Maybe Iago is playing TAG but only with his top hands and on the flops that he hits?
If you bluff and semi-bluff more you might pick up 2 pots and lose one where your bluff got called, but your image would change and you'd get more action on your legit hands.

DeVore

I agree Dub13. I moved up to the 20-in very soon after I started playing and got spanked bad by the regulars but it also knocked the K4 and Q8 out of my game and I got an education about poker. I too have thought about the successes I've had when I was a maniac and the relatively steady results I've had since I've learned more about this game.

I'll tell you what conclusion I've come to and see if you agree with it. If you are a gambler, like say Vernon, you will have extremes in the results of your tournies, you'll either end up massive chip leader or you blow out pre-freezeout. So 4 tournies in 5 maybe you blow out but once in 5 you will be monster chip leader and should make that work for you. If you can use those chips to get paid, then you may well have a better win ratio then if you play tight aggressive.

The problem is that I dont believe you will. This comes back to the argument Hector and I had recently about how tripling your starting chips does or doesnt triple your chances of winning.

I've noticed I dont get to the final table with a huge stack any more unless I am gifted cards during the night. However I am bitterly dissappointed if I dont get to the final two tables of the 20-in game now. So while I get there say 4 times out of five I have fewer chips (like last night!).

This comes down to when and how you want to gamble. High Risk High Reward but far greater risk of blowing out of any given tournie, or Slow and Steady which gets you into the final two tables ball game more often but you have to gamble then to chip up and bust through to the final table.

Predictability is the only thing you need to avoid and ideally you should be able to swing from one extreme to the other. Imagine if you crossed Vernon with Vivion, you'd have a player who can regularly accumulate chips in vast quantities who could then sit and play well with them on the later tables. Scary!
In fact, mostly thats what Joe O'Neill does and what makes him a strong tournament player.

DeV.

Hectorjelly

I think sometimes people think they are playing in a vacuum. This isnt an RPG, You wont do well once you reach a certain level of tightness and or aggresiveness. You need to play whatever game is required to beat the table your at. USUALLY, but not always tight is optium. And nearly always, its better to be aggressive than passive.

The reason beginners often do well is that they have absoultely no fear, and more experienced players dont make the adjustements neccessary when dealing with them. Im guilty of this from time to time, Ill often know exactly what cards a player has and try and push them off their obvious overpair of whatever (dont try this!) by representing a made hand, but they call anyway because theyre not good enough to fold a strong hand. Its me who made the mistake there. Its also hard to play hold em with somebody who has NO idea what they are doing, because you cant narrow their range of cards down, and its not often that you are that far ahead of anyone.

Since this rant has absolutlely no direction at all Ill just add two more small points,

1 Davey I agree, Bluffing is like a sweet sweet drug. I really need to stop showing bluffs I keep getting myself caught in corners where I need to get cards quickly because Im being called down by *anything*

2 A lot of the players that are highly respected are pretty crap IMO, I wont name names but if you play every tournament you will make a lot of final tables.

DeVore

2 A lot of the players that are highly respected are pretty crap IMO, I wont name names but if you play every tournament you will make a lot of final tables.

You mean in Ireland at our level or the bigger names in Ireland or internationally?

I think the line between genius and lunacy is very fine in Poker... what *could* look like a fantastic call could just as easily turn out to be a blooper.

DeV.

DeVore

The reason beginners often do well is that they have absoultely no fear, and more experienced players dont make the adjustements neccessary when dealing with them. Im guilty of this from time to time, Ill often know exactly what cards a player has and try and push them off their obvious overpair of whatever (dont try this!) by representing a made hand, but they call anyway because theyre not good enough to fold a strong hand. Its me who made the mistake there. Its also hard to play hold em with somebody who has NO idea what they are doing, because you cant narrow their range of cards down, and its not often that you are that far ahead of anyone.

Sounds like my Omaha play

DeV.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

You mean in Ireland at our level or the bigger names in Ireland or internationally?

I think the line between genius and lunacy is very fine in Poker... what *could* look like a fantastic call could just as easily turn out to be a blooper.

DeV.

Ireland and yes.

careca

Hectorjelly wrote:

A lot of the players that are highly respected are pretty crap IMO, I wont name names but if you play every tournament you will make a lot of final tables.

Name em and Shame em I say !!!!!

DeVore

yeah I'd be interested to hear too

DeV.

Dub13

DeVore wrote:

or Slow and Steady which gets you into the final two tables ball game more often but you have to gamble then to chip up and bust through to the final table.

DeV.

Very true....I did this just last night in the 100 game,and got busted out trying to gamble and double up,I was after winning 4 all ins in a row so it had to end sometime.