A hand from last night.

DeVore

Warning: this post may not contain traces of a point.

Out of all the hands from last night, this one remarkably sticks in my mind because for once I actually got annoyed and tilted because of some comments at the table.

I was getting utter rags all night and I get Q3s spades before the break. I havent used a rebuy and its about 4 mins to last-3-hands. 5 count them 5 people ahead of me limp and being in late position I flat call. I'm not entirely sure why I did that but frankly I was getting a little frustrated and I find that even just calling a BB and seeing a flop can relieve that. Anyway.
If theres a criticism of my play in this hand, thats the play to criticise legitimately.

The SB makes it 600 to go and BB passes. Everyone passes round to me and I'm looking at a pot of at least 1300 with only one person to act behind me. I'm being asked for 500 more. I put the SB on a strong aggressive play to drive out the marginals and build up his own pot odds and so unless he has a Q I'm probably good to go now!
So I call feeling sure that my call will settle any question in the lone remaining player's mind, which it did.

The flop comes down Q64 and I call his all in which isnt a whole lot more (another 600 I think). I rarely read people but I'm utterly certain this bloke hasnt got a Q and looks disgusted he didnt win it at the preflop stage. He looks decidedly reluctant to bet in fact. He bets, I call, he has 77. Whoopie.

So far an unremarkable hand but when I show q3 there is much dark mutterings from that end of the table with a number of "ooouphs!" when I turn the hand over. Then the bloke seemingly stung blurts out "how could you call 600 with that muck", before realising he appears curlish (he's a decent enough skin) and returning to a sullen silence. I try to explain the concept of being priced in by all the dead calls but either noone at the table was interested or had the maths to cop what I was on about. I put my odds on about 1:2 against, so long as he doesnt have something like AA or KK and even then I'm pratically priced in too! Since I dont have a whole lot more (and neither does he) I figure I'm quids-in and take my shot.

What really fookin' irritated me (uncharacteristically) was the "cant play against fish" style comments that were made despite the fact that I was trying to explain why my actions made sense to no avail and I ended it with my usual line "You pay to see my cards, lessons are extra" as curtly as was polite and then sat there fuming to myself for another 10 minutes until the break.

Weird eh? I can take Norman bluntly insulting me personally all night and laugh it off or give it back in spades but this one comment got right under my skin and made me want to school the entire table. Thankfully the break saved my ass as I calmed down and went back to playing my own game.

Theres probably a point or an example of something in that but I'm fooked if I can see it. I just thought I'd write about it. *shrug*

DeV.

BigDragon

They're your cards DeV. You play them how you want. All of those players want you to call with Q3 when they have the nuts so......sod 'em.

You paid your entry fee the same as they have. We all get done by bad calls (I get the pot value argument btw) and get on with it.

Dolly won two WSOP with 10deuce. That's poker.

mewso

Well first off you can't be surprised if people get a bit narked at someone calling with Q3. Secondly I couldn't be bothered explaining my reasoning to them. If you're happy you did the right thing then fine. Sod them.

Lafortezza

Blinds are 50-100? 500 more to call, pot stands at 1300. Not the greatest ever call with Q3, but if you hit the flop then happy days.
Why did he go all in with 77 on a Q high board with 2 players (who called hi preflop raise) to act after him. Thats a questionable play as well.

In the end you played the player by reading him for not having a Q, so unless he had an over pair or something random like 6-4 then you're ahead.

How would you feel if someone did the exact same thing to you? Don't deny you'd be thinking "how can he call with that shíte??"

DapperGent

I wouldn't be explaining my reasoning here at all. I keep schtum and hope the player called me again later when I had a good hand.

nesf

It looks like you read the players play very well and caught him out. You had position on him and capatalised, personally I'd have thought about reraising him on the pre-flop if I thought he was just flushing people out of it with a mid hand.

He should have checked on the flop too to get some idea of what you had in hand. If you had been slowplaying JJ or QQ you'd have nailed him on the flop and he could have saved himself come chips.

Then again I'm pretty new to this game. I agree on your pot value argument though. I also think that sometimes when you're playing intellegently, the hardest thing to accept in hold'em is that any two cards can win no matter how crap they are.

*casts mind back to a night where on BB saw flop with 72o in hand, Flop was 227, I check-raised, the button went all in, I followed, he had KK, he was disgusted that I was seeing a flop with 72o, even though as BB on an unraised pot I hadn't much of a choice.*

amp

I find it hard to understand how people can give out about other players playing crap hands and don't fold against a bet from a player with a better but hardly outstanding hand. Haven't these people ever heard of the concept of reading a player?

Sometimes the bet is not the only thing that does the talking. With that in mind I'd advise BigDragon not to play with his hair when he has pocket aces

Hectorjelly

Some of the arguments in this thread are mind blowing. De Vore played like an uber fish and got lucky, there is no concieveable way that calling a raise here is any where near right, you need a bigger overlay than this to play a one card hand. If Tom had of put up this post from the other point of view everyone would be falling over themselves to give out about the other player.

Hectorjelly

pam wrote:

I find it hard to understand how people can give out about other players playing crap hands and don't fold against a bet from a player with a better but hardly outstanding hand. Haven't these people ever heard of the concept of reading a player?

Its hard to fold to a bet when your all in, and if your reads cause you to call half peoples stacks with Q3s then you need to reread Caro.

Hectorjelly

nesf wrote:

It looks like you read the players play very well and caught him out. You had position on him and capatalised, personally I'd have thought about reraising him on the pre-flop if I thought he was just flushing people out of it with a mid hand.

He should have checked on the flop too to get some idea of what you had in hand. If you had been slowplaying JJ or QQ you'd have nailed him on the flop and he could have saved himself come chips.

Do you often reraise with Q3s when somebody has pot committed themselves?
And after betting half your stack preflop do you check fold on a flop with 1 over card?

Hectorjelly

DapperGent wrote:

I wouldn't be explaining my reasoning here at all. I keep schtum and hope the player called me again later when I had a good hand.

Paying your advertising budget for the rest of the game!

Hectorjelly

lafortezza wrote:

Why did he go all in with 77 on a Q high board with 2 players (who called hi preflop raise) to act after him. Thats a questionable play as well.

In the end you played the player by reading him for not having a Q, so unless he had an over pair or something random like 6-4 then you're ahead.

There was no reading involved on the flop, can you imagine calling half somebodies stack off with a Q preflop then folding on a Q high board!
Also the guy with 77 has to move in on the flop, that play isnt even questionable.

Edit: there was only 1 caller

nesf

Hectorjelly wrote:

Do you often reraise with Q3s when somebody has pot committed themselves?
And after betting half your stack preflop do you check fold on a flop with 1 over card?

No, I wouldn't have called pre-flop with Q3s myself to the BB nevermind a large raise, it is just in that kind of position I would be thinking of either going all in or folding, there is no middle ground. Theres a very small chance he could get his opponent to fold preflop which is worth taking, if you're so pot comitted that you need to call any bet anyways post-flop.

Perhaps I was off from the flop play, but to be honest I think he could have played it either way. He was protecting his hand when he went all in, but with his hand being the way it was he could have check raised, or put a bet out for information. I never said I thought he should fold, when he was so pot committed.

Plus I've been on the recieving end of a lot of bad beats like this, where I'm going in my head "how the **** did he follow a pre-flop raise with those!!" but thats the way hold'em can be, by the time the flop fell it wasn't likely that either of them could fold, so it was going to be nasty for somone. Personally I wouldn't have gotten pot committed with either hand. Pocket 7's isn't a hand I want to get into an all-in showdown preflop with.

Hectorjelly

nesf wrote:

Theres a very small chance he could get his opponent to fold preflop which is worth taking, if you're so pot comitted that you need to call any bet anyways post-flop.

Zero chance of him folding, and its the raiser who is pot committed not De Vore.

nesf wrote:

Perhaps I was off from the flop play, but to be honest I think he could have played it either way. He was protecting his hand when he went all in, but with his hand being the way it was he could have check raised, or put a bet out for information. I never said I thought he should fold, when he was so pot committed.

He didnt have enough chips for any of that.

nesf wrote:

Personally I wouldn't have gotten pot committed with either hand. Pocket 7's isn't a hand I want to get into an all-in showdown preflop with.

There was enough in the pot that he should of just stuck it all in preflop. He had a shortstack so 77 is a great hand, especially at a table of limpers.

nesf

Hectorjelly wrote:

Zero chance of him folding, and its the raiser who is pot committed not De Vore.

I'll concede the point.

There was enough in the pot that he should of just stuck it all in preflop. He had a shortstack so 77 is a great hand, especially at a table of limpers.

This I'll agree on, he should have gone all-in preflop rather than just with a big bet, he didn't leave himself with the option to fold after the flop anyways, so he should have forced the others to decide if they want to get that committed before they get to see the flop. I'd disagree with 77 being a great hand, I wouldn't personally like to put myself all-in with it, but in tournies you need to take risks so I can see how one could end up in the situation. 99 or TT would have been far more acceptable to me.

Oh and I agree that Dev played very fishlike by calling the raise in the first place.

Hectorjelly

nesf wrote:

Oh and I agree that Dev played very fishlike by calling the raise in the first place.

Yes he did! I played a hand like this a while ago, I limped in late postion with k5o, no idea why. The small blind raised, and I called. Flop came up k high and he goes all in. I called. He had QQ. The chat was something like

Player who lost: lol
Other player: omg, hector are you feeling ok?
HJ: Let us never mention this hand again.

nesf

Hectorjelly wrote:

Yes he did! I played a hand like this a while ago, I limped in late postion with k5o, no idea why. The small blind raised, and I called. Flop came up k high and he goes all in. I called. He had QQ. The chat was something like

Player who lost: lol
Other player: omg, hector are you feeling ok?
HJ: Let us never mention this hand again.

Yeah I've days like that. Sometimes you find yourself with a crap preflop hand and a lovely flop staring you in the face, and your left there wondering how you managed to get yourself in this position after playing tight all night.

Lafortezza

but...but....they were suited!!!

Juan Pablo

DeVore wrote:

I get Q3

Devore in Gay Waiter shocker. I can see the tabloids having a field day with this one.....

DeVore

[url]http://twodimes.net/h/?z=705283[/url]
pokenum  -h 7d 7h  - qs 3s 
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards      win   %win     lose  %lose   tie  %tie     EV
7d 7h  1134853  66.28   567472  33.14  9979  0.58  0.666
Qs 3s   567472  33.14  1134853  66.28  9979  0.58  0.334

Yeah, mad fish me.

DeV.

DeVore

ps: Since, as HJ has pointed out, he's pot committed himself without actually going all in (which I wouldnt have been able to call) kindly letting me see if I hit something before betting the rest of the chips. Now I know that if I hit I'm going to get the rest of his money and if I dont (or have a spade draw) I walk away.
As HJ pointed out from when he makes the big raise his play is robotic. He must raise all in on the flop in question (in fact its quite a good flop for him) and I must call or else I shouldnt have played q3. The most important read is before the raise when he's clearly not looking to hook someone with a big pair, he looks like he's trying to risk the least that will get people out of the hand.
(and I wouldnt have raised at all with 77 in that position if I were him anyway).

DeV.

DeVore

Hectorjelly wrote:

Some of the arguments in this thread are mind blowing. De Vore played like an uber fish and got lucky, there is no concieveable way that calling a raise here is any where near right, you need a bigger overlay than this to play a one card hand. If Tom had of put up this post from the other point of view everyone would be falling over themselves to give out about the other player.

Btw, I'm not saying this is the play of the year or anything, but I think you are very wrong Hector, against the hand I'm actually playing I am 2:1 against which is hardly uber fish play considering the stacks and the rebuys.

"there is no concieveable way that calling a raise here is any where near right" seems a touch ratty too, how is it such a terrible play? I have no doubt its slightly on the wrong side of the odds but if you factor in the implied odds, for the flop its 1900:500 and I also didnt put him on a pair though I was wrong about that. My one fear was that he was playing AQ aggressively but even against the pair I think I am "anywhere near right"

DeV.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

[code]

Yeah, mad fish me.

DeV.

Your going to look pretty silly calling the bet on the flop with Q high, but you would of folded wouldnt you? So that means you cant use those figures, as you need to hit a Q on the flop. This will happen about 1/5 of the time. Also you have no way of putting him on 77, if he has a Q even 1 in 10 times that you make that call its a losing play.

Hitman Actual

DeVore wrote:

[url]http://twodimes.net/h/?z=705283[/url]
pokenum  -h 7d 7h  - qs 3s 
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards      win   %win     lose  %lose   tie  %tie     EV
7d 7h  1134853  66.28   567472  33.14  9979  0.58  0.666
Qs 3s   567472  33.14  1134853  66.28  9979  0.58  0.334

Yeah, mad fish me.

DeV.

DeVore, I think this is valid only if you get to see all five cards, unless I'm missing the point of your argument.

Anyway, surely the SB makes the first mistake with the pre-flop raise. Moving all-in preflop (or just flat-calling) has to be the better option.

henbane

        	  equity (%)      win (%) / tie (%)  

Random Hand
Hand  1:	  48.9808 %   [  00.47   00.02  ]    { random }
Hand  2:	  51.0192 %   [  00.49   00.02  ]    { Qs3s }

Exact Hand
Hand  1:	  66.5678 %   [  00.66   00.00  ]    { 7d7c }
Hand  2:	  33.4322 %   [  00.33   00.00  ]    { Qs3s }

Any pair
Hand  1:	  69.5989 %   [  00.69   00.00  ]    { AA-22 }
Hand  2:	  30.4011 %   [  00.30   00.00  ]    { Q3s }

Any middling pair
Hand  1:	  67.9292 %   [  00.68   00.00  ]    { JJ-66 }
Hand  2:	  32.0708 %   [  00.32   00.00  ]    { Qs3s }

Stronger queens
Hand  1:	  72.6773 %   [  00.71   00.02  ]    { QQ, AQs, KQs, QJs-QTs, AQo, KQo, QJo }
Hand  2:	  27.3227 %   [  00.25   00.02  ]    { Qs3s }

Any Broadway Cards or any pair
Hand  1:	  65.5510 %   [  00.65   00.01  ]    { AA-22, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand  2:	  34.4490 %   [  00.34   00.01  ]    { Qs3s }

Any unpaired broadway cards
Hand  1:	  63.5271 %   [  00.62   00.01  ]    { AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand  2:	  36.4729 %   [  00.35   00.01  ]    { Q3s }

Probability a Q will flop = 3/50 + 3/49 + 3/48 = 0.18

pokerstove is fun; i really should be studying

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

Btw, I'm not saying this is the play of the year or anything, but I think you are very wrong Hector, against the hand I'm actually playing I am 2:1 against which is hardly uber fish play considering the stacks and the rebuys.

You have no idea if your 2:1 against, granted its during the rebuys so its not a big deal. Its a bad play but Ive done worse.

DeVore wrote:

"there is no concieveable way that calling a raise here is any where near right" seems a touch ratty too, how is it such a terrible play? I have no doubt its slightly on the wrong side of the odds but if you factor in the implied odds, for the flop its 1900:500 and I also didnt put him on a pair though I was wrong about that. My one fear was that he was playing AQ aggressively but even against the pair I think I am "anywhere near right"

DeV.

Its 1900:500 but you will hit a Q 1 in 5 times on the flop. The odds dont add up. From time to time you will be up against AQ or KQ and you will be drawing almost dead from the start. Also you will often fold incorrectly on the flop. I see that you didnt put him on a pair, what did you put him on?

If I came across as ratty its because I was amazed at the responses, some of them said that you outplayed the other guy! If some new guy posted this hand he would be critised, and rightly so.

DeVore

lenny_leonard wrote:

DeVore, I think this is valid only if you get to see all five cards, unless I'm missing the point of your argument.

Anyway, surely the SB makes the first mistake with the pre-flop raise. Moving all-in preflop (or just flat-calling) has to be the better option.

Aye, I was just making the point that its not that far behind, certainly not the hanging offence HJ seems to think it is.

This post wasnt really about the hand in question, I shouldnt have been there in the first place and from there it was loose play, though I needed to gamble to try and buy a stack at that time I felt.

My point such as it was, was more about unreasonably getting tilty and what triggers it. If the guy had said "hey, you know you didnt really have the odds to call there even with the overlay. Q3 suited your new favourite hand?" I would have accepted that but I couldnt get through to the table that sometimes you can call with a hand that you KNOW is behind because of mis play by them or the extra (now dead) money in the pot. What made me tiltly was criticism by people who couldnt understand WHY they should be criticising me. Its not the worlds greatest play, I'm gambling and I know it because I have extra resources in the form of rebuys but a. its not as bad as people think, b. people who criticise a play should have some concept of why or shut up and listen.

If I had to critique my own play I'd say the call in the first place was poor, I'm pretty much immediately playing for a flush or a mutant straight with the 3 or something. Calling the raise is on the wrong side of the odds but not by any great amount and with the implied odds, in the same position and situation in the tournie, *shrug* I'd probably do the same thing again. Calling his all-in is a no brainer.

DeV.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

(and I wouldnt have raised at all with 77 in that position if I were him anyway).

Why not?

DeVore

Hectorjelly wrote:

You have no idea if your 2:1 against, granted its during the rebuys so its not a big deal. Its a bad play but Ive done worse.

Its 1900:500 but you will hit a Q 1 in 5 times on the flop. The odds dont add up. From time to time you will be up against AQ or KQ and you will be drawing almost dead from the start. Also you will often fold incorrectly on the flop. I see that you didnt put him on a pair, what did you put him on?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=705330
pokenum  -h ad qh  - qs 3s 
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards      win   %win     lose  %lose    tie  %tie     EV
Ad Qh  1218919  71.19   465579  27.19  27806  1.62  0.720
Qs 3s   465579  27.19  1218919  71.19  27806  1.62  0.280

Yup, stone cold dead there too. Dead fish me.

I didnt have to work out what he had, I knew he didnt have a big pair and against almost any other hand, even AQ as above, its not so bad. You are right about one thing, I'd have to call his assured bet on the flop which I might not have done.

So long as the guy doesnt have QQ, KK, AA I'm somewhere betweem 27% and 38%.

I never said this was a great play. Its not, its just about passable for a lot of external reasons what other people do or dont say about its value isnt my problem. Its ballpark correct, on some days it would be ahead of the odds on others behind but in neither direction would it be far wrong unless my read of him for No-Big-Pair was wrong.

DeV.


DeV.

Lafortezza

What range of hands did you put him on preflop Dev?

You obviously would have called his all in on a Q-high flop, on a spade draw. Is there any other flop that you would have called his all-in on? J-4-3?

Lafortezza

DeVore wrote:

[url]http://twodimes.net/h/?z=705283[/url]
pokenum  -h 7d 7h  - qs 3s 
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards      win   %win     lose  %lose   tie  %tie     EV
7d 7h  1134853  66.28   567472  33.14  9979  0.58  0.666
Qs 3s   567472  33.14  1134853  66.28  9979  0.58  0.334

Yeah, mad fish me.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=705330
pokenum  -h ad qh  - qs 3s 
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards      win   %win     lose  %lose    tie  %tie     EV
Ad Qh  1218919  71.19   465579  27.19  27806  1.62  0.720
Qs 3s   465579  27.19  1218919  71.19  27806  1.62  0.280

Yup, stone cold dead there too. Dead fish me.

Against 77 you're 33% to win, against AQo you're 27% to win, not a huge amount of difference but one is a reasonable play and the other is a terrible play?