Article - Gatsos Over Read Your Speed

Seth Brundle

Note: this is for UK cameras. The Irish ones are all accuratley calibrated and if you don't believe that, then tough!

from http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=9689
Court case could prove thousands of speeders innocent

Gatso-based evidence could be responsible for convicting thousands of innocent motorists, according to research by David Edgar, a retired electronics engineer and former professional inventor.

The Gatso speed cameras he has investigated over-estimated motorists' speed by up to 25 per cent because the time between the two flash photography images, which constitutes legal evidence on which prosecution is based, was much longer than specified.

Edgar's 35-year unblemished driving record is under threat from prosecution by West Midlands police for allegedly driving 41 mph in a 30 mph zone. Wallsall-based Edgar has pleaded not guilty to the driving offence and will defend himself in the Birmingham Magistrates’ Court on Thursday 13 January 2005.

After receiving his summons, Edgar became suspicious of the accuracy of the Gatso-based evidence and developed a laser aligned, optically triggered digital timer that measures to an accuracy within 1/100th of a second the time lapse between the two flashes produced by a Gatso speed camera.

He became concerned about the accuracy of the Gatso speed camera when his requests for disclosure about how speed cameras are calibrated for accuracy were ignored by both the police and the Crown Prosecution Service. His requests for information sent to Gatsometer in the Netherlands and UK were also ignored, as was his formal application to Birmingham Magistrates’ Court to force disclosure.

Edgar said, “I really felt they had something to hide so I decided to investigate the critical timing accuracy."

Having tested the opto-digital timer on a number of Gatso speed camera sites including Newtown Birmingham, Walsall and Cannock area, Edgar soon discovered that well over 80 per cent of them were inaccurate. In particular, there were serious timing errors between the two flashes which are supposed to flash at exactly half a second (500 milliseconds) apart.

Edgar's tests show the timings are anything but accurate. Typically they are 630 milliseconds apart, which changes legal evidence about how far a vehicle has travelled. In particular, it creates the illusion that a vehicle has travelled much further between flashes than it actually did -- some 25 per cent further.

For instance a vehicle travelling at 35 mph would have travelled an extra 2.03 metres when the timing between the two flashes is 630 milliseconds, and that puts the vehicle in the next set of parallel line markings which are spaced two metres apart.

Since these serious inaccuracies clearly affect the reliability of the actual recorded speed of a vehicle, it suggests that photographic evidence cannot be relied on by the prosecution, as reasonable doubt exists concerning the accuracy of that evidence.

Having now investigated and researched the Gatso method of speed camera entrapment the police and CPS are relying on Mr Edgar said “ I have also discovered some other disturbing facts that affect the accuracy and reliability of the entire measuring system, these will be brought to the attention of the Birmingham Magistrates Court on Thursday 13 January 2005, come along it should be an interesting day in court.”

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign commented, "If Mr Edgar's claims are proven then almost everyone convicted by a Gatso speed camera will be able to apply to have their case reopened. I have spoken to Mr Edgar and his extensive research seems unequivocal."

ubu

Interesting alright, obviously it has no bearing unless someone does the same here, but gatsos are gatsos so it could very well be happening here

John R

ubu wrote:

Interesting alright, obviously it has no bearing unless someone does the same here, but gatsos are gatsos so it could very well be happening here

Considering the cameras here are identical (aren't they ex-uk ones at that?) it does have a bearing. Unless the DPP or the Gardai can prove that the cameras were properly calibrated this evidence could easily be used in Irish courts for both upcoming and previous cases.

As we have a small number of these fixed cameras it wouldn't take long to find out if they are accurate or not.

ubu

surely you would need evidence that the Gatso's in use in this jurisdiction are not accurate, even if they were sourced from the U.K

Samson

John R wrote:

...(aren't they ex-uk ones at that?)

Yes.

Seth Brundle

ubu wrote:

surely you would need evidence that the Gatso's in use in this jurisdiction are not accurate, even if they were sourced from the U.K

Hence my note "this is for UK cameras. The Irish ones are all accuratley calibrated and if you don't believe that, then tough!"

ubu

hence my first post, "obviously it has no bearing unless someone does the same here..."
that was a response to John R's post who said it does have a bearing, as the cameras are identical

Boggle

Considering the cameras here are identical (aren't they ex-uk ones at that?) it does have a bearing. Unless the DPP or the Gardai can prove that the cameras were properly calibrated this evidence could easily be used in Irish courts for both upcoming and previous cases.

I agree - but even if they weren't identical, once you raise doubts about such things as the accuracy of the millisecond timer then they will have to provide cal and maintenance documentationfor the dates in question.

You wouldn't even need to repeat the tests - just cite this case (assuming he wins).

magpie

Interestingly if you phone up the Speed Fines Line on 1890 30 40 60 and select from the options 'query the accuracy of a speed reading' you get a recorded schpiel about how the cameras are accurately calibrated.

I think the key issue here is that 1 company manufactures these cameras. If there's a glitch in one set then there's a glitch in all of them, which means that any speeding tickets issued by them in Ireland will be open to appeal.

In fact, hopefully someone will be reading about this and putting things in motion already.

Bogger77

magpie wrote:

Interestingly if you phone up the Speed Fines Line on 1890 30 40 60 and select from the options 'query the accuracy of a speed reading' you get a recorded schpiel about how the cameras are accurately calibrated.

I think the key issue here is that 1 company manufactures these cameras. If there's a glitch in one set then there's a glitch in all of them, which means that any speeding tickets issued by them in Ireland will be open to appeal.

In fact, hopefully someone will be reading about this and putting things in motion already.

Read the statuebook on this, under Irish law, the gardai do not have to prove that speed measuring equipment is accurate or calibrated correctly.

so there is no scope for appeal.

magpie

Link please

Bogger77

from the other thread on this topic, the issue of calibtrated equipment has been fought and lost in irish courts already

edmund_f wrote:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/

look up road traffic act 2002, section 21, all the evidence is 'prima facie' i.e. they are not obliged to prove any of it until you go to court

Boggle

It was fought and lost - but anyone who works in electronics knows the verdict was bullsh1t. The fact is the case must have been extremely badly handled or the judge must have been an ignorant idiot.

Seth Brundle

Boggle wrote:

The fact is the case must have been extremely badly handled or the judge must have been an ignorant idiot.

erm, are they all not the latter?

Bogger77

Boggle wrote:

It was fought and lost - but anyone who works in electronics knows the verdict was bullsh1t. The fact is the case must have been extremely badly handled or the judge must have been an ignorant idiot.

a judges job is to apply the law, the law states that the accuracy of the equipment can't be questioned, the judge applies the law. Why does that make the judge either ignorant or an idiot.

Judges don't make the law, blame the governament that made the law.

Boggle

Judges don't make the law, blame the governament that made the law.

They do however have the right to overturn them in certain circumstances - I expect that the law never took into account the fact that electronic equipment verifiably drifts over time and therefore the law is flawed and therefore the law should be overturned (or whatever you do to tell the govt to stick their law up their ass)

kbannon wrote:

erm, are they all not the latter?

Touche

Andrew Duffy

So long as the time stamps on each picture are correct, it doesn't matter how far apart they are taken. The camera probably waits half a second before starting to charge the flash again, then takes the second picture - but the clock is in milliseconds and is photographed at the same time as the car.

Boggle

Obviously I'm not sure how exactly these operate but odds are the photo's come in pairs and the first one is the one with the time stamp or that the time stamp is automatically generated for the second (this would be how you cover up a known problem with a system anyway...). Now seeing as every car doesn't get flashed I assume that there is a radar monitoring the traffic and I wonder if the radar (detected speed) is given as well as the marking (calculated) speed as a discrepency might give an indication of drift.

Incidentally, do we use these road markings here - I've seen them once or twice but don't know if they're in general use. My understanding was that these were a baskup meas only but dont know. Also I notice that he doecn't account for the angle of the sight line between the camera and the marking which could potentially be another flaw in the system... basically the lower the camera and the higher the chassy the faster it would perceive you to be travelling... (Probably too small to matter but howsever...)


(I notice that he's not taking issue with the radar detector that detected his speed to be over the limit in the first place!)

Bogger77

I'm prob wrong, but iirc, gatso's work out speed from the lines on the road, ie how many lines has your car travelled in that 1/2 second or second between pictures, that's why there's more lines on the lanes where they expect faster speeds of travel. from tomorrows world or some such program,

Shoot me down if i'm wrong.

Seth Brundle

shot down!
The lines are there for manual checking in the event of an appeal