Think I've been stung by a cowboy on Ebay....

Selik

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Oh no you got scammed on ebay.

What. A. Big. ****ing. Shocker.

Next you'll be wondering why that nice nigerian man hasn't transferred all that money into your bank account.

Sap of highest order...

John R

D!ve^Bomb! wrote:

I would love for you to show me an example of such an unlikely situation..

That is EXACTLY what has happened to Giles, albeit not quite as extreme as ebooks to Porsches.

The seller ramped up his feedback selling 99p phone fascias, then went on a scam spree selling phones for 100 times the cost of the sales he got his feedback rating from.


Every point A Dub In Glasgow has made is on the money, ebay could do much more to prevent fraud occouring in the first place and to give buyers a much better profile of sellers.

Slutmonkey57b

Giles wrote:

Sap of highest order...

Yes. Yes you are. Perhaps next time you won't be quite so eager to hand over €300 to an anonymous trader who flogs once-in-a-lifetime deals through a notorious scam porthole.

Ceavat Emptor, or in this case,
Have a nice day, sap.

Chucky the tree

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Yes. Yes you are. Perhaps next time you won't be quite so eager to hand over €300 to an anonymous trader who flogs once-in-a-lifetime deals through a notorious scam porthole.

Ceavat Emptor, or in this case,
Have a nice day, sap.

how is a mobile a once in a lifetime deal?


i havent used ebay yet, and judging by D!ve^Bomb!'s attitdue i never will.

Selik

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Yes. Yes you are. Perhaps next time you won't be quite so eager to hand over €300 to an anonymous trader who flogs once-in-a-lifetime deals through a notorious scam porthole.

Ceavat Emptor, or in this case,
Have a nice day, sap.

Oh dear... Thank you so much for your constructive advice and pathetic analogies. Please f*ck off now as your're not really contributing anything of interest. Oh and if you had bothered to read the whole thread you would realise that I'm going to get a refund either off Paypal or my credit card company and unlike you in such a situation, I'm actually going to learn from this and not make the same mistake again.

nesf

Its a classic case of "Caveat Emptor(sp?)" isn't it? I agree with some of the points mentioned above with sale values of feedback on someone's profile, but it would involce quite alot of work. However the item numbers for each transaction are available if the auction wasn't a private one, so you can go back and check on the auctions so long as they still exist, and happened within 3 months.

Personally I use eBay to pick up odds and ends, but I'd never dream of buying anything remotely expensive on it, ie 500+ euro, although I'm the exact same way when it comes to open air fairs or Buy and Sell.

Gothic Warrior

okidoki987 wrote:

Ebay are a disgrace!
The amount of fraud being committed on the site is outrageous.
They don't care so long as they are making their money.
If they did care, they would refund 100% of the money swindled and chase the ****ers themselves.

Caveat Emptor, numbnuts.

John R

Gothic Warrior wrote:

Caveat Emptor, numbnuts.

ebay's next marketing slogan perhaps?

Slutmonkey57b

Giles wrote:

Oh dear... Thank you so much for your constructive advice and pathetic analogies. Please f*ck off now as your're not really contributing anything of interest. Oh and if you had bothered to read the whole thread you would realise that I'm going to get a refund either off Paypal or my credit card company and unlike you in such a situation, I'm actually going to learn from this and not make the same mistake again.

You are, indeed, not like me at all.
I'm nowhere near stupid enough to fall for something like that in the first place.

Incidentally, I haven't drawn any analogies.

Also incidentally, pointing out that idiots get ripped off on ebay (which is the point of your thread) also contributes nothing of interest. (to people who aren't morons, anyway).

D!ve^Bomb!

John R wrote:

That is EXACTLY what has happened to Giles, albeit not quite as extreme as ebooks to Porsches.

The seller ramped up his feedback selling 99p phone fascias, then went on a scam spree selling phones for 100 times the cost of the sales he got his feedback rating from.


Every point A Dub In Glasgow has made is on the money, ebay could do much more to prevent fraud occouring in the first place and to give buyers a much better profile of sellers.

i've already given Giles info through PM.. nd i've looked at the sellers account and i disagree..

and tbh, you have no idea what eBay do.. you are stating an optinion.. i am however stating facts

seamus

For the record D!ve^Bomb!, I'm sure you're interaction here is well appreciated by those you're talking to, but I'd be wary about what you discuss, and the manner in which you discuss it. Essentially you've come on here as representative of ebay, so everything you've said is in representation of ebay, and I'm sure you probably haven't been authorised to do so.

No doubt you've been posting from work, so they can track your activity back to you, and it could land you in some very hot water. What if some manager in ebay clocks this thread, sees you giving some gentle abuse to people, complaining about customers, and detailing what are no doubt private procedures on a public forum?

Obviously I don't care, work away as you wish, just food for thought.

FX Meister

D!ve^Bomb! wrote:

What do you think the feedback system is for? :rolleyes:

So what about sellers who sell counterfeit items, are left negative feedback by the buyer then ebay removes the neg feedback once the buyer gets some of him money refunded. The next person sees only good feedback as a result and buys from the same seller. Surely ebay should not remove the feedback?

D!ve^Bomb!

eBay don't remove feedback unless the buyer and seller mutually agree..

point noted seamus, but as far as i'm aware anything i've said is not private and is basically available on the eBay site

okidoki987

Why did Watchdog (BBC1 consumer show) do a show couple of months ago about Ebay's record with scams, fake goods, sellers not sending goods, buyers out of pocket etc if it's such a tiny percentage of your sales then?
Surely they wouldn't have bothered?
The bloke from Ebay Uk was very uncomfortable with all the questions by Nicky Campbell.

D!ve^Bomb!

okidoki987 wrote:

Why did Watchdog (BBC1 consumer show) do a show couple of months ago about Ebay's record with scams, fake goods, sellers not sending goods, buyers out of pocket etc if it's such a tiny percentage of your sales then?
Surely they wouldn't have bothered?
The bloke from Ebay Uk was very uncomfortable with all the questions by Nicky Campbell.

i didn't even see it tbh.. i dunno, why would they do it, it's a tv show...

tv + multi billion dollar company = ratings ratings ratings

FX Meister

D!ve^Bomb! wrote:

eBay don't remove feedback unless the buyer and seller mutually agree..

point noted seamus, but as far as i'm aware anything i've said is not private and is basically available on the eBay site

So you get ripped off and the only way you can get your money back is to agree to remove your negative feedback. I'm not going to leave feedback there instead of me getting my money back. This has happened to me three times, each time I have kept and eye on the seller, warned the bidders on all his auctions after and bid on his items with some of the five other accounts I have and not paid the ****.

koneko

FX Meister wrote:

This has happened to me three times, each time I have kept and eye on the seller, warned the bidders on all his auctions after and bid on his items with some of the five other accounts I have and not paid the ****.

That's just going to result in you getting your accounts closed for harrassing him (whether he ripped you off to start with or not).

FX Meister

Well it hasn't had too much of an effect on the accounts to date, the only problem is that I can only bid on one auction at a time. These accounts are only used for the reasons mentioned so if they close they close. Ebay have no problem with people selling counterfeit goods as long as they still make their profit from it so I have no problem giving the seller a hard time.

nlgbbbblth

seamus wrote:

No doubt you've been posting from work, so they can track your activity back to you, .

why do you think that?

Some of us do post from home as we are too busy at work/don't have net access there

Bri

Can I ask a related question:

I've just started using eBay for small amounts of hard to find vinyl...nothing serious.
I've bought 4 items but the first 1 I bought (9th Jan) I havn't paid for yet because the guy never got back to me. Before I bought it we had corresponded and he'd offered a P&P cost between the UK and European rates for Ireland. There was never a figure decided upon before I bought...He's 'gone off' to look for 2 others I asked about.

Now the guy has 616 100% feedback, so I don't see this as a runaway.

Just wondering what I should do - I've e-mailed him on the day I bought and once again direcly to his e-mail asking him to confirm shipping prices. I don't want negative rep (does this happen automatically given time?) but want to just pay the stupid thing.

I could just pay the European rate (not thaattt much) and ask him to discount this from later purchases.

Any advice?

KevIRL

nlgbbbblth wrote:

why do you think that?

Some of us do post from home as we are too busy at work/don't have net access there

Maybe cause of what Dive Bomb said in an earlier post????


"don't be soo bitter

i'm off home"

seamus

nlgbbbblth wrote:

why do you think that?

Some of us do post from home as we are too busy at work/don't have net access there

Why do I think he's been posting from work? Or why do I think they can trace back his posts from work?

Well, I know he's been posting from work because he ended one post with "I'm off home now" . And ebay, being a large tech corporation are not going to have uncontrolled net access. You can be pretty sure that all network activity between the corporate network and the Internet is traceable back to a username.



[Edit: It also occured to me that I could check his IP, but I won't.

Selik

Phone arrived today!!!!

Can't quite believe it really. I guess I could've been wrong but I think I had every reason to suspect that the seller cheated me... Ah well I've withdrawn my complaint on Paypal now. I suppose it's always possible that the guy got scared and decided he better post the phone to me after I complained.

FX Meister

Sounds like you got lucky there Giles.
A friend of mine this morning sent me a link to an auction in the UK for a North Face down jacket and asked me to check it out. It was a fake so I used my fake account to buy it now on all his auctions. Reporting it to ebay isnt going to do much good so why not just take care of it myself. It's **** like this seller that gives ebay a bad name. Now all I have to do is leave him the negative feedback.

D!ve^Bomb!

Giles wrote:

Phone arrived today!!!!

Can't quite believe it really. I guess I could've been wrong but I think I had every reason to suspect that the seller cheated me... Ah well I've withdrawn my complaint on Paypal now. I suppose it's always possible that the guy got scared and decided he better post the phone to me after I complained.

told ya

Nosh*tsherlock

FX Meister wrote:

Sounds like you got lucky there Giles.
A friend of mine this morning sent me a link to an auction in the UK for a North Face down jacket and asked me to check it out. It was a fake so I used my fake account to buy it now on all his auctions. Reporting it to ebay isnt going to do much good so why not just take care of it myself. It's **** like this seller that gives ebay a bad name. Now all I have to do is leave him the negative feedback.

To be honest a lot of the North Face jackets on ebay are fake most coming in from China. Check out this website for help in spotting these fakes http://www.thenorthfaceguru.com
In all these auctions it is buyer beware, if something normally costs over £200 in the shops why do you think someone will sell it for £40-£50.....

lomb

heres an email for a laptop i purchased he wants payment by escrow

Hello,
You just won my auction on ebay(APPLE POWER MAC G5
DUAL 2.0GHZ W/ DVD-R /CD-RW (Item #5158381669)) at the
final price of £1,800.00.The payment is done via
escrow.
For payment the best way for you to use is escrow.A
great company that i been using is
www.Expert-Business-Support.com.
Please check it out.They will hold your money until
you receive and test the goods.I will cover all
fees.To start the transaction please register with
them.I am already registered as a seller.After you are
registered they will contact you with transaction
details.After that you have to send them the
payment.When they confirm the payment i have to ship
the item.After you have the item and after you check
it you have to infom Expert-Business-Support.com if
you agree or not to keep it.If you agree they will
forward me the money,if not they will return your
money and you have to ship the item back to me.I think
you can choose the inspection period(from 1 to 30
days).
Well,as soon as you are ready we can start.I have them
ready for shipping and can send them as soon as i have
the payment confirmation from escrow.
Thank you and i wait your E-mail.

how can they get away with it?ebay doesnt do anything to verify sellers and they can just phise someones identity. u should have to provide 1. a landline number 2. credit cardstatement with the amount apearing on it and then u ring ebay up with the random number

Ruu_Old

dont bother using ebay if u dont understand it, Paypal works fine for me i have 50+ feedbacks never been burnt once, alot of the "bargains" are by cowboys and are too good to be true. Hope u get something back out of ur situation

D!ve^Bomb!

lomb wrote:

heres an email for a laptop i purchased he wants payment by escrow

Hello,
You just won my auction on ebay(APPLE POWER MAC G5
DUAL 2.0GHZ W/ DVD-R /CD-RW (Item #5158381669)) at the
final price of £1,800.00.The payment is done via
escrow.
For payment the best way for you to use is escrow.A
great company that i been using is
www.Expert-Business-Support.com.
Please check it out.They will hold your money until
you receive and test the goods.I will cover all
fees.To start the transaction please register with
them.I am already registered as a seller.After you are
registered they will contact you with transaction
details.After that you have to send them the
payment.When they confirm the payment i have to ship
the item.After you have the item and after you check
it you have to infom Expert-Business-Support.com if
you agree or not to keep it.If you agree they will
forward me the money,if not they will return your
money and you have to ship the item back to me.I think
you can choose the inspection period(from 1 to 30
days).
Well,as soon as you are ready we can start.I have them
ready for shipping and can send them as soon as i have
the payment confirmation from escrow.
Thank you and i wait your E-mail.

how can they get away with it?ebay doesnt do anything to verify sellers and they can just phise someones identity. u should have to provide 1. a landline number 2. credit cardstatement with the amount apearing on it and then u ring ebay up with the random number

excatly will a phone no. do? nothing!

what will a credit card statement do? nothing

what if they don't have a credit card?

it's all easier said then done..

in this particular case what are you going to do? pay him 1800euro?... no.. try and think of WHY you think that guy is trying to rip you off and you might understand that eBay does a lot more than you think

lomb

D!ve^Bomb! wrote:

excatly will a phone no. do? nothing!

what will a credit card statement do? nothing

what if they don't have a credit card?

it's all easier said then done..

in this particular case what are you going to do? pay him 1800euro?... no.. try and think of WHY you think that guy is trying to rip you off and you might understand that eBay does a lot more than you think

In order to sell something on ebay ebay should make proper creditcheck enquieries to determine if sellers are for real or not. a ebay newbie could fall for his clever escrow website

D!ve^Bomb!

yeah maybe the buy and sell should do that too huh?:rolleyes:

lomb

rhe difference with buy and sell is this: people tend to meet each other for the goods.
ebay all looks very legitimate and newbiez could easily fall for a scam. ebay should provide each registered member with 3 or 4 points to stay safe by email and should verify all sellers. if paypal can verify a seller why cant ebay. after all they are one and the same. the reason is paypal could loose money if payments are made via stolen credit card but ebay makes money even on fraud. they do very little to close dubious auctions.

D!ve^Bomb!

everynody on eBay has the option to meet up to purchase goods..

eBay do NOT make money from fraudulent auctions.. PayPal DO NOT verify people with the credit cards, The PEOPLE do this, you do not have to be verified to use PalPal and it is up to you if you want to be verified, i use PayPal and i'm not verified..

you're making assumptions yet you don't really have a clue.. how do you know what eBay does? please show me the facts that show that eBay does nothing

lomb

D!ve^Bomb! wrote:

everynody on eBay has the option to meet up to purchase goods..

eBay do NOT make money from fraudulent auctions.. PayPal DO NOT verify people with the credit cards, The PEOPLE do this, you do not have to be verified to use PalPal and it is up to you if you want to be verified, i use PayPal and i'm not verified..

you're making assumptions yet you don't really have a clue.. how do you know what eBay does? please show me the facts that show that eBay does nothing

http://www.ebaysucks.com/

and www.paypalsucks.com

Ruu_Old

correct D!ve^Bomb!, everyone has options. Its mostly user error that causes "fraudalent" purchases, do your homework on the seller first and there wont be any problems

However, some sellers ask that you have to be verified by Paypal to purchase goods for them and also theres a spending limit i believe if ur not verified.

D!ve^Bomb!

lomb wrote:

http://www.ebaysucks.com/

and www.paypalsucks.com

:rolleyes:

wow, total no. of registered users 573... SOLD!!

Thanks Ruu, my sentiments exactly.. Not sure what the limit is, i haven't gone passed it anyway

lomb

heres the gist of it divebomb for 500euro i could buildup a feedback of 500 by setting up multiple buyer accounts (500 of them) and selling 99p items tomyself and paying ebay the small fees attached to this. give myself A+++++ feedback then after 3 months EBAY DELETES THE ITEMS SO ONE CANNOT SEE WHAT ITEMS THE FEEDBACK WAS GIVEN ON. THIS IS A DELIBERATE ACTION ON EBAY PART TO CONCEAL FRAUDSTERS.
then laylow for 3 months, now im a powerseller i can sell 10 laptops for 500 euro each and bank 5000. now if i was determined this is an easy fraud to perpetrate. ebay at no time checks and verifies buyers.
ebay knows the fraudsters money is as green as legitimate buyers and sellers. the only reason they act is to avoid class action lawsuits in the States.
the above is a complex fraud there are obviously many simple frauds as well.

D!ve^Bomb!

lomb wrote:

heres the gist of it divebomb for 500euro i could buildup a feedback of 500 by setting up multiple buyer accounts (500 of them) and selling 99p items tomyself and paying ebay the small fees attached to this. give myself A+++++ feedback then after 3 months EBAY DELETES THE ITEMS SO ONE CANNOT SEE WHAT ITEMS THE FEEDBACK WAS GIVEN ON. THIS IS A DELIBERATE ACTION ON EBAY PART TO CONCEAL FRAUDSTERS.
then laylow for 3 months, now im a powerseller i can sell 10 laptops for 500 euro each and bank 5000. now if i was determined this is an easy fraud to perpetrate. ebay at no time checks and verifies buyers.
ebay knows the fraudsters money is as green as legitimate buyers and sellers. the only reason they act is to avoid class action lawsuits in the States.
the above is a complex fraud there are obviously many simple frauds as well.

well what an interesting story.. please show me some an example..

I also have a question, if you try and sell 500 items, how are you goin to buy them all yourself, what if someone else bids on them and continues to bid on them... and what about you're feedback? do you think people won't notice that everyone who has given you feedback only has one feedback themselves? nd even that feedback would have been left by you.. trust me, you wouldn't get to the three month mark without being suspended, and when you're suspended, every other avvount you have will be as well:)

lomb

no need to show u an example-go and try it urself.
furthermore ive been bidding on a few dubious auctions and as a new signup to ebay without any verification i have been able to place a max bid on a laptop of 2million euros.
ebay is just taking the piss. in time of course this will change as they are treatened with class action suits they and paypal have already lost several and paid millions of dollars.

D!ve^Bomb!

lomb wrote:

no need to show u an example-go and try it urself.
furthermore ive been bidding on a few dubious auctions and as a new signup to ebay without any verification i have been able to place a max bid on a laptop of 2million euros.
ebay is just taking the piss. in time of course this will change as they are treatened with class action suits they and paypal have already lost several and paid millions of dollars.

no need to show me an example huh? don't you mean you can't possibly show me an example?

please give me a couple of the item no.s that you bid on that you think are dubious

Selik

D!ve^Bomb! wrote:

told ya

Thanks Dive Bomb I think I did indeed get lucky and I'm gonne be much more careful and vigilant with any purchase I make on Ebay from now on!

lomb

heres a fake APPLE POWERMAC G5, DUAL 2 GHz - 1024MB RAM, 230GB Item number: 5158539285
do a search auction is closing soon. feel free to bid it up (with a dodgy account)

heres a hint if u bid 2.1 million u might just win it

lomb

D!ve^Bomb! wrote:

well what an interesting story.. please show me some an example..

I also have a question, if you try and sell 500 items, how are you goin to buy them all yourself, what if someone else bids on them and continues to bid on them... and what about you're feedback? do you think people won't notice that everyone who has given you feedback only has one feedback themselves? nd even that feedback would have been left by you.. trust me, you wouldn't get to the three month mark without being suspended, and when you're suspended, every other avvount you have will be as well:)

umm u could cancel the auction if someone else bids. ebay wont suspend anything if they are getting paid the listing fees and there are no complaints.

A Dub in Glasgo

With a fraud investigations department where the staff appear complacent about actual fraud, is it any wonder people get stung using ebay.

I would love ebay to endorse an escrow service for the UK and Ireland. It would be great if ebay could link each listing to a website like the following

http://www.sos4auctions.com/

I have reported that fraudulent escrow site to that website earlier and they have updated their database

http://www.sos4auctions.com/escrow/escrow.asp

SiteURL: Expert-Business-Support.com Address: 206.251.184.110 Notified: 22-Jan-2005
HostURL: I-55.com Site2URL:
Related1: Related2:
Created: 19-Jan-2005 Reported: 22-Jan-2005 Modified: 22-Jan-2005 Origin:
Type: Escrow Evaluation: Fraudulent Status: Active Appearance: Active
Comments:
Registered to an individual in the UK. The home page uses the word “exchange” where “escrow” would be much more precise concerning the offered services. This substitution has been seen on quite a few escrow frauds. The company information page provides a link to a counterfeit BBB certification page at http://expert-business-support.com/betterbusinessupport.html. That counterfeit certification provides a Chicago address: 2040 W Adams St, Chicago IL 60612. That is the address of Schools Public: Cregier Multiplex in Chicago. The accompanying fax number is for a different person at a different address in Chicago. That certificate also claims ownership of the two Escrow.com operating subsidiaries: “ Additional Business Names: EC Services Corporation, Internet Escrow Services, Inc..” The approach paragraph on the company information page was taken from the Escrow.com page footer. Again, the word “Exchange” was substituted for “Escrow”. Another change appears in the subsidiary name where “Soutions” was substituted for “Services”. That spelling problem originated on a long series of Romanian escrow frauds. This page also provides a claimed location for the company, “Headquartered in London, UK and Chicago,US Expert-Business-Support.com provides ….” The contact page provides the address of the Chicago school district headquarters and two other addresses: Global Security One, Address 45 Ardent Way, Prestwich, London, Post Code E25 9WB, England Lungomare Marconi 17, Lido,Venezia, 30126, Italy This page also provides a California corporate license number, #9631865, which is that of FIRST SOUTHWESTERN ESCROW SERVICES, INC. and is no longer valid. The basic form of the licenses part of the contact page was taken from the Escrow.com licenses page. This site has no terms of use. NEVER use a services site that lacks this legal document and ALWAYS carefully read it when present. It tells you of the rights and obligations of all parties to a transaction - you, your trading partner and the company. It also tells you what laws apply and what rights the company wishes to reserve.

D!ve^Bomb!

lomb wrote:

heres a fake APPLE POWERMAC G5, DUAL 2 GHz - 1024MB RAM, 230GB Item number: 5158539285
do a search auction is closing soon. feel free to bid it up (with a dodgy account)

heres a hint if u bid 2.1 million u might just win it

this proves my point.. i agree that it is somewhat suspicious, considering it's a private auction and the seller has only 2 feedback.. but this is the point i'm trying to make, people need common sense and the people who are willing to buy that don't seem to have any..

this i what the feedback system is for..

D!ve^Bomb!

lomb wrote:

umm u could cancel the auction if someone else bids. ebay wont suspend anything if they are getting paid the listing fees and there are no complaints.

you could cancel the item yes, but then you wouldn't have the feedback you need to rip people off..

plus if you keep ending your listings early then you'll be suspened for fee avoidance;)

so what then?

D!ve^Bomb!

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

With a fraud investigations department where the staff appear complacent about actual fraud, is it any wonder people get stung using ebay.

*sigh* :rolleyes:

D!ve^Bomb!

lomb wrote:

heres a fake APPLE POWERMAC G5, DUAL 2 GHz - 1024MB RAM, 230GB Item number: 5158539285
do a search auction is closing soon. feel free to bid it up (with a dodgy account)

heres a hint if u bid 2.1 million u might just win it

oh yeah, just so you know, i will be taking a closer look at that user's account tomoro.. ya never know, that listing might be ended early....... by me!! MWUA HA HA HA...;)

ya see we do remove listing:)

L5

lomb wrote:

heres the gist of it divebomb for 500euro i could buildup a feedback of 500 by setting up multiple buyer accounts (500 of them) and selling 99p items tomyself and paying ebay the small fees attached to this. give myself A+++++ feedback then after 3 months EBAY DELETES THE ITEMS SO ONE CANNOT SEE WHAT ITEMS THE FEEDBACK WAS GIVEN ON. THIS IS A DELIBERATE ACTION ON EBAY PART TO CONCEAL FRAUDSTERS.
then laylow for 3 months, now im a powerseller i can sell 10 laptops for 500 euro each and bank 5000. now if i was determined this is an easy fraud to perpetrate. ebay at no time checks and verifies buyers.
ebay knows the fraudsters money is as green as legitimate buyers and sellers. the only reason they act is to avoid class action lawsuits in the States.
the above is a complex fraud there are obviously many simple frauds as well.

to create 500 accounts, you would need 500 seperate credit cards.
The way they do it is that people on ebay specialise in selling feedbakc for around a dollar. You can quickly build up a great feedback score like that

D!ve^Bomb!

L5 wrote:

to create 500 accounts, you would need 500 seperate credit cards.
The way they do it is that people on ebay specialise in selling feedbakc for around a dollar. You can quickly build up a great feedback score like that

well if you did that you would never be able to rip people off cos you'd be suspended in no time..

jeez, at least be smart if you're gonna try and do it:D;)