Ireland's "shame" for its neutral status in the Second World War

Dub13

I was reading a article about the removal of the head from a statue of IRA Chief of Staff Sean Russell in Dublin’s Fairview Park.And this was a part of it.

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However, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Paris, the world’s largest Jewish human rights organisation, called for it to be left unrestored as a symbol of Ireland’s “shame” for its neutral status in the Second World War as thousands of Jews were put to death.


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So what do you think....Should modern Ireland feel any “shame” .

simu

No. What good is shame? The past is the past and it can't be undone and besides, all the politicians involved are dead now.

Enduro

Ireland's Neutral during WWII was shameful. Of course the current generation have nothing to be ashamed of with regard to WWII.

However a lot of people seem to be proud of Ireland's neutrality during WWII, and surely that is a shameful stance, particularly with the full benifit of hindsight.

The past can't be undone, but it can be learned from. Ireland has continued to stand idly by whilst similarly shameful acts have taken place relatively close to home in recent times, e.g. Bosnia and Kosovo. No doubt our pride in our so called neutrality will continue to prevent us taking meaniful action to stop future atrocities.

uberwolf

they can sod off.

Regardless of the stance and its motivation, I'd imagine more russians dies than jews, etc. Or at least a very significant number. Their terrible pain hasn't motivated them to be more compassionate with other vunerable groups.

Their belief that they are in a position to pontificate to us is misguided.

edit: to clarify. The jewish russian commentary is just to say that the Jews (hardly a united group - and certainly not represented by an individual) hasn't got a monopoly on grief caused by WWII. And certainly the russians, for e.g, would think better than to make rude comments such as this one. Further their continuing track record as a nation hardly grants them the moral high ground - regardless of their illinformed view of our neutrality.

egan007

More power to Ireland - If Neutrality was practiced by all there would be no problem in the first place

The Corinthian

First of all Ireland was not exactly neutral. We were happy enough to accept British ships on our east coast and German U-boats on our west coast, and ultimately were more than just a little biased in favour of the allies by the end of the war.

Secondly, perhaps the Simon Wiesenthal is just looking to open up new markets in the Holocaust industry? Or perhaps they’ve just finally lost the plot? Either way they can sod off.

Poz3D

The Corinthian wrote:

Secondly, perhaps the Simon Wiesenthal is just looking to open up new markets in the Holocaust industry? Or perhaps they’ve just finally lost the plot? Either way they can sod off.

Maybe they're just a bit ticked off after all the controversy surrounding Prince Harry's recent fancy dress costume! That was a very stupid mistake for him to make, especially with Holocaust memorials coming up in a few weeks.

As for neutrality, I don't think we should be shameful at all. We had a small army at the time and it would have been devastating for our nation if our young population was conscripted to a war that there was no need for us to partake in.

Third_Echelon

egan007 wrote:

More power to Ireland - If Neutrality was practiced by all there would be no problem in the first place

well said...

meditraitor

uberwolf wrote:

they can sod off.

My thoughts precisely,

ishmael whale

There’s clearly no need for shame over neutrality, as no small country volunteered to enter WW II. And as Russell was not a representative of the Irish people we don’t need to feel any shame on his behalf for his willingness to deal with Nazis. But equally I wouldn’t be queuing up at his statute to remember him fondly.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1382163,00.html
“…. Russell was commanding officer of the IRA during the Second World War and conducted a campaign of assassination and sabotage in both Britain and Ireland, aimed at damaging the war effort against Hitler.
Although an open ally of the Nazis, Russell is still honoured by the modern IRA and Sinn Fein. In September 2003, Sinn Fein MEP Mary Lou McDonald spoke at a rally to commemorate Russell in the north Dublin park. …”

MG

An ignorant comment which displays a complete lack of knowledge of the complex and ultimately valid reasons for neutrality.

Sparks

For a neutral nation we sure had a lot of irishmen fighting in the allied armies...

Not to mention the fact that jews fleeing the nazis were interned (in the Isle of Man) by the UK and turned away by the US. Auschwitz was never assaulted (well, they missed a nearby target and hit the camp by mistake once, with a single bomb) even though it was known about and there were aerial photographs taken of it. So basicly, the whole "final solution" was never itself directly attacked by the allies, only through their attacks on the german military itself.

So I don't see how we've got anything to be ashamed of, frankly.

bizmark

I'd imagine more russians dies than jews

Many more ...Russia lost 26 million people the jews lost around 5-6 million china also lost nearly twice the number at 11 million.

And no we shouldnt be ashamed

Hippo

So how would Ireland have fared under German occupation?

ishmael whale

MG wrote:

An ignorant comment which displays a complete lack of knowledge of the complex and ultimately valid reasons for neutrality.

I hesitate before suggesting that these complex, but ultimately valid, reasons would be tractable by explanation in as uncouth a tool as the written word.

But could you even give us a hint about what you are on about?

magick

Ireland's Neutral during WWII was shameful.

That was the only thing we could do , either that or join the Allies with our 5 barnstorm fighter kites with our elite haystack assualt troops.

Hairy Homer

At least, with the very small exception of people like Russell, we didn't actually fight on the Nazi side. All we did was declare neutrality--along with Norway, Portugal, Holland, Belgium, Denmark and er the USA.

What about the Finns? They actively participated in a war against one of the major allied countries the Soviet Union (two wars, actually) the second of which caused Britain to declare war on them.

The Soviets attacked the Finns in 1939, demanding that they hand over some territority north of Leningrad for defence purposes. After receiving a right bloody nose from the Finns for a few months during the winter, they inevitably succeeded and annexed Karelia, from which they forcibly evicted all the Finnish population.

Then when the Germans attacked the Soviets in the summer of 1941, the Finns SHAMEFULLY joined in on the Nazi side and participated in the slaughter of the poor Red Army by the Nazi death machine. They also participated in the brutal siege of Leningrad.

How shameful is that?

I think we should boycott all Finnish products. Ditch those Nokia phones and all you Liverpool fans: burn your scarves until they agree to sell Sami Hypia and donate all the proceeds to the Wiesenthal centre.


I hope this all sounds as ridiculous as the opening suggestion.

arcadegame2004

Many more ...Russia lost 26 million people the jews lost around 5-6 million china also lost nearly twice the number at 11 million.

26 million Soviet deaths would be a better way of putting it, and remember that a hell of a lot of Soviet Jews were massacred in Ukraine and Belarus and Russia. I am making that point as a reaction to the differentiation of Jewish deaths versus Russian deaths.

I do not feel ashamed at our neutrality. We would have been completely destroyed by the Luftwaffe had we sided with Britain. Remember that it is now known that RAF nearly had all its planes destroyed and were only saved by Hitler's decision to divert bombing raids to civilian targets. So Britain only barely held out in 1940. So how would Ireland have been supposed to?

Remember also that tens of thousands of Southerners fought in WW2 in the British army.

A Dub in Glasgo

It is not shameful to stay neutral in a war although with hindsight, maybe we should have officially aligned ourselves with the forces fighting Hitler.

As for Sean Russell, he just used the opportunity presented by the war to try and hurt the UK. Nothing different regarding Irish Nationalism through the centuries and certainly nothing to be ashamed of. I hope the National Graves Association does something to protect the statue from those misguided fools who think that Russell was a fascist.

What about Fine Gael and their association with the Blue Shirts during that time. What about the Catholic church and their endorsement of the fascist side in the Spanish civil War?

bus77

What sort of Irish reporter would go hunting down that type of comment in the first place?

Trojan

"Simon Wiesenthal Centre": go frisk yourselves.

PaulHughesWH

Dub13 wrote:

I was reading a article about the removal of the head from a statue of IRA Chief of Staff Sean Russell in Dublin’s Fairview Park.And this was a part of it.

**

However, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Paris, the world’s largest Jewish human rights organisation, called for it to be left unrestored as a symbol of Ireland’s “shame” for its neutral status in the Second World War as thousands of Jews were put to death.


**

So what do you think....Should modern Ireland feel any “shame” .

We should feel no shame. The Simon Wiesenthal Centre is an arm of the state of Israel, which is pursuing its own sick agenda.

Ireland should not be targeted by this campaign of hereditary guilt, no more than the Germans of today should. We have more in common which the tens of millions of Christians who died in Soviet gulags, at the hands of wicked Commissars, many of them Jewish. And yet they are never remembered. Why?

true

Ireland is the only country in Europe to have a statue of a terrorist ally of the Nazi. To our shame we allow this statue to be placed in Ireland. It is an insult to all those killed by the IRA and by the Nazis, and it is an insult to all those Irishmen (among others) who gave their lives in WW2 so we can live in freedom and peace today.
Shame on Sinn Fein/IRA for being associated with this statue , but with their track record of atrocities, it is not surprising. A foreign group once asked of the Irish "are we mentally starved?" when they saw our IRA boyos misadventures.

PaulHughesWH

true wrote:

Ireland is the only country in Europe to have a statue of a terrorist ally of the Nazi. To our shame we allow this statue to be placed in Ireland. It is an insult to all those killed by the IRA and by the Nazis, and it is an insult to all those Irishmen (among others) who gave their lives in WW2 so we can live in freedom and peace today.
Shame on Sinn Fein/IRA for being associated with this statue , but with their track record of atrocities, it is not surprising. A foreign group once asked of the Irish "are we mentally starved?" when they saw our IRA boyos misadventures.

Another Anti-Fascist action proponent of hereditary guilt.

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

Ireland is the only country in Europe to have a statue of a terrorist ally of the Nazi. To our shame we allow this statue to be placed in Ireland. It is an insult to all those killed by the IRA and by the Nazis, and it is an insult to all those Irishmen (among others) who gave their lives in WW2 so we can live in freedom and peace today.
Shame on Sinn Fein/IRA for being associated with this statue , but with their track record of atrocities, it is not surprising. A foreign group once asked of the Irish "are we mentally starved?" when they saw our IRA boyos misadventures.

You are truly on a wind up since you joined these boards. Sean Russell was not a Nazi nor a fascist, he was an Irish Republican who saw an opportunity to advance the republican cause in a way he saw fit. In hindsight, he may have been parochial but your stuff above is pure nonsense. You think Frank Ryan is another ally of the Nazis?

is_that_so

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Sigh , we were neutral in WW1 but that doesn't matter because it was only soldiers that were killed, millions of them, but no Nazis, fascists or any other type of nasty people involved in the war that gave us mustard gas, the efficient use of the machine gun and wholesale butchery of soldiers for a few metres of land. A war that wiped out a whole generation. And of course this gave us Versailles which in turn punished the German nation so severely that they were prepared to vote for anyone who could get their country out of the mess it was in. Read and understand history, before waving diktats and dogmas about. We're good at remembering ours but little understand why some of it occurred. Revisionism serves no-one especially when put forth by people who little care for the consequences of their actions. But it gets us talking boll** for hours.

delly

Lets remember that both Germany and the British had plans to invade us during the second world war, so I think it was brave of our government to keep to there neutrality. The Brits were pissed cause they gave us back our Treaty ports, and somehow thought that they would be able to use them as freely as before, but this was not the case.

My main interest of WWII was the Battle of the Atlantic, and i have much respect for the men of the Royal Navy as well as the merchant navy for the hell that they had to live thru'. If we had of come in on the side of the Allies, its clear that there would have been less boats sunk and more lifes saved.

But, as bad as it seems, neutrality was about more than just lifes and ships, and I believe that our leaders at the time made there decision with this in mind. We had to watch our back in order to protect our new status in the world, and neutrality was the best way.

Hindsight is a great thing, but its also a paradox IMHO.

BTW 'The Cruel Sea' by Nicholos Monserrat is a great read.

true

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You are truly on a wind up since you joined these boards. Sean Russell was not a Nazi nor a fascist, he was an Irish Republican who saw an opportunity to advance the republican cause in a way he saw fit. In hindsight, he may have been parochial but your stuff above is pure nonsense. You think Frank Ryan is another ally of the Nazis?

No , Dub in Glasgow, I am not truly on a wind up. Everthing I said on these boards is true, and well you know it. You may not like to hear the other side of the story, or the middle ground occassionaly ; I suppose is you only get your version of current affairs from An Phoblocht in Glasgow then you may think it a wind up.

Sean Russell was more than an Irish republican : he was an active IRA man , who was an open and willing ally of Nazi Germany. I never said Russell was a Nazi? At least the Nazis dressed up in uniforms and sometimes adhered to the Geneva convention. If the Nazi won the war, do you know what they were going to do with the Jews of Ireland ? Do you know what they done with the Jews of Holland and Denmark, to name but two other small neutral countries? Not very clear on our history , Dub in G, or is it that you do not like to stand up for non-catholic minorities in Ireland ? Lucky we were shielded by the UK, Dub in Glasgow.

Finally, you ask about Frank Ryan. Who is Frank Ryan ? We were talking about Russell.

Big Ears

true wrote:

Ireland is the only country in Europe to have a statue of a terrorist ally of the Nazi. To our shame we allow this statue to be placed in Ireland. It is an insult to all those killed by the IRA and by the Nazis, and it is an insult to all those Irishmen (among others) who gave their lives in WW2 so we can live in freedom and peace today.
Shame on Sinn Fein/IRA for being associated with this statue , but with their track record of atrocities, it is not surprising. A foreign group once asked of the Irish "are we mentally starved?" when they saw our IRA boyos misadventures.

give it a rest for once . :cool:

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

No , Dub in Glasgow, I am not truly on a wind up. Everthing I said on these boards is true, and well you know it.

You certainly come out with some amazing stuff. Everything you say (other than bold facts) is your perception of the truth, it is not the same thing. The same goes for everybody elses opinion. Facts are what matters. The facts say that Russell went to Germany to seek their help. Anything after that is mere perception and opinion.

You may not like to hear the other side of the story, or the middle ground occassionaly ; I suppose is you only get your version of current affairs from An Phoblocht in Glasgow then you may think it a wind up.

I love to hear the other side but only if it has been stripped of the predudice and sensationalism. Unfortunately, you do not strip anything out.. I have not read An Phoblact in about 10 years. I get my current affairs from a wide source of media, thank you very much.

Sean Russell was more than an Irish republican : he was an active IRA man , who was an open and willing ally of Nazi Germany. I never said Russell was a Nazi? At least the Nazis dressed up in uniforms and sometimes adhered to the Geneva convention. If the Nazi won the war, do you know what they were going to do with the Jews of Ireland ? Do you know what they done with the Jews of Holland and Denmark, to name but two other small neutral countries? Not very clear on our history , Dub in G, or is it that you do not like to stand up for non-catholic minorities in Ireland ? Lucky we were shielded by the UK, Dub in Glasgow.

If you read the whole thread and not just a selection of posts, you will see that I think Ireland should have aligned ourselves more to the allied side during the war. Of course, this is all hindsight talking and it is very doubtful if Russell would have been aware of the full extent of Nazi Germany. I do not like religion so your comment regarding the 'non-catholic' minorities does not make sense.

Finally, you ask about Frank Ryan. Who is Frank Ryan ? We were talking about Russell.

I rest my case

Manach

At the start and mid phases of WWII, it was not an absolute Good vs Evil conflict. The policy of neutrality was broadly supported by the public and the politicians. In general the people were pro-Allies but the reality is that we were struggling to survive, importing raw materials in the middle of the U-boat blockade. I remenber older members of my family always had a good word for Irish merchant sailors, especially those who were lost at sea.

As an aside, an interesting book about this time is "Guests of the State" : How both Allied and Axis internees were kept in the same prison camp in the Curragh.