Ireland's "shame" for its neutral status in the Second World War

ionapaul

Britain and Russia still take a whole lot of credit as well - all three of the main allies should be very proud of the victory against the Nazis. 'Uncle Joe' and the Communist regime (not the Russian people or nation) don't need to be praised - they were happy to carve up Poland hand-in-hand with Hitler and rank about the same in the annals of history as the strangly 'tashed madman.

The Nazis were never going to win a conventional war once BOTH the US and the Soviets stood against them. It isn't fair to downplay the American contribution to the Allied war effort in WWII, IMHO, just as it wouldn't be fair for the Americans (or the Russians or the British) to claim the lion's share of the victory.

With regard to moral reasons - that's just the way of the world. Though the intervention in Kosovo seems mainly down to humanitarian and moral concerns.

ionapaul

Thinking about it more, the countries that should be most proud of their efforts during WWII are Britain, France, Poland, and the others that stood (and fell) against the Nazis and the Soviets from September 1939. Britain resolutely withstood the storm, and the undergrounds of the various Nazi-occupied countries fought the good fight no matter what the odds. Underground fighters would not only risk their lives, but guarantee their death, by their actions.

ionapaul

ionapaul wrote:

Thinking about it more, the countries that should be most proud of their efforts during WWII are Britain, France, Poland, and the others that stood (and fell) against the Nazis and the Soviets from September 1939.

Its odd but the only real nation that declared war on Germany without being invaded first was Britain. Britain out of all the allies was the only one that saw the threat of Germany in Europe. (i'm not 100% sure of that, but I think all the european countries declared war after being invaded, with the possible exception of France, when Poland was invaded)

ionapaul wrote:

Underground fighters would not only risk their lives, but guarantee their death, by their actions.

And employed methods that would be considered Terrorism by modern day standards. But it was a different time back then so its all ok. :rolleyes:

ionapaul wrote:

'Uncle Joe' and the Communist regime (not the Russian people or nation) don't need to be praised - they were happy to carve up Poland hand-in-hand with Hitler and rank about the same in the annals of history as the strangly 'tashed madman.

yup, and they were more than happy to ignore the hundreds of thousands of Axis troops that were forced to work in the hinterland of Russia, and of which only a few thousand manged to leave alive. Remember this is the russia that murdered millions of their own population. All under the watchful eyes of the Allies. The Holocaust in Germany, was allowed to happen because governments didn't care. It was only when germany invaded a number of nations successfully that a European conflict occured.

true wrote:

At least it should wake us up to what Sinn Fein stands for. I am sure those thousands of men who gave their lives to liberate Europe would turn in their graves at the modern day goings on of SinnFein/IRA, and of the government that appeases them. During the war, DeValera executed some IRA.

I don't particularily like Sinn Fein or what they stand for, but this is stupid. I don't see you screaming out against the nations that used the Axis for their own aims.... Spain for example?

The IRA during WW2 tried many times to enlist support from Germany. This was an attempt to gain support from the Enemies of Britain, who by their eyes were as bad as germany. Hell, knowledge of the Holocaust only truely came out after the entrance of Poland and german territory. As far as they knew germany was just kicking the Allies ass, and they needed support. (considering the british Empire had left many memories of slaughter on this Island going back centuries) <Shrugs> Nothing wrong there.

Regardless Ireland's neutrality was see-through. Allied Pilots were moved across the border when shot down, German Pilots were interned. German Sea-men were also interned, British sea-men returned on the next packet ship. Foodstuffs and resources still moved from ireland into England. German planes and Ships were either shot at or blocked from irish ports. British forces were ignored, and in most cases helped.

It was a favourable neutrality. A neutrality to prevent the invasion of ireland should Britain have fallen. But it was a neutrality that helped Britain as much as anything.

true. It was a different time back then. Even if it was only 60 years or so. Different opinions towards what was allowed and what was not (Churchills desire to use Gas at many stages during the war being one of those things). There was no real Global press, or freedom of Information. So knowledge of the killing of the "undesirables" (Alot more than just Jews were killed by the Death Camps) had to filter out rather than being released in its entirity. Germany was rough, and it treated the Jews badly, but people only saw it as an extension to how jews were treated in every country, including Britain and the US

Hobbes

Deleted User wrote:

Its odd but the only real nation that declared war on Germany without being invaded first was Britain. Britain out of all the allies was the only one that saw the threat of Germany in Europe. (i'm not 100% sure of that, but I think all the european countries declared war after being invaded, with the possible exception of France, when Poland was invaded)

So which country do you think will be first to step to the US then?

Step to the US? are we speaking in code? Don't really follow your meaning, sorry.

If you mean WW2, the US declared a state of war after Hitlers own declaration. There wasn't enough support in the US administration to support a declaration for war prior to that. Too many memories of the casualty lists from WW1 fighting a "European War".

ionapaul

Deleted User wrote:

Its odd but the only real nation that declared war on Germany without being invaded first was Britain.

France declared war on Germany without being invaded first. They (Brits and Frogs ) both had the 'balls' to stand by their ally, even though they couldn't do anything to save Poland being invaded by the Nazis and stabbed in the back by the Soviets. Poor Poland...two years of joint German-Soviet occupation, three more of German occupation, then almost 50 years of Soviet oppression!

Deleted User wrote:

And employed methods that would be considered Terrorism by modern day standards. But it was a different time back then so its all ok. :rolleyes:

The WWII resistance fighters did not deliberately target civilians, bomb buses, fly planes into office blocks - rather they faced certain death to assassinate military leaders (Heydrich in Prague and General Kutschera in Warsaw) or Nazi agents.

Deleted User wrote:

yup, and they were more than happy to ignore the hundreds of thousands of Axis troops that were forced to work in the hinterland of Russia, and of which only a few thousand manged to leave alive. Remember this is the russia that murdered millions of their own population. All under the watchful eyes of the Allies.

Well, in the Allies defence they needed the Soviets to defeat Hitler - I would have been 1000% behind Patton when he suggested that after Germany was defeated, the Western Allies should immediately attack the Soviets, with the help of the re-armed Germans free from Nazi control! Instead it took another 50 years of oppression for the Eastern European and Russian peoples to throw off the yoke of Communism / Stalinism / whatever. The Soviets and Stalin in particular were as bad as the Nazis in my book. Moderation in all things!

Deleted User wrote:

Germany was rough, and it treated the Jews badly, but people only saw it as an extension to how jews were treated in every country, including Britain and the US

I know what you mean, but 'treated the Jews badly' is an understatement. If ever there was a war of right (the Western Allies) and wrong (Nazis and Japanese empire), WWII was it. Undesirables were interned temporarily in the allied countries, gassed or shot in the others. Again, in this regard the Soviets were as bad as the Nazis.

Sorry for turning this thread into a WWII discussion

Hobbes

Deleted User wrote:

Step to the US? are we speaking in code? Don't really follow your meaning, sorry.

I was referring to modern day.

Your previous paragraph was touted by the US as a reason to pre-emptive attack. "The Brits" had never been attacked yet they declared war on Germany.

So the US is now in two countries (Afganistan/Iraq), who will step up when they hit a third?

The Corinthian

ionapaul wrote:

The WWII resistance fighters did not deliberately target civilians, bomb buses, fly planes into office blocks - rather they faced certain death to assassinate military leaders (Heydrich in Prague and General Kutschera in Warsaw) or Nazi agents.

Actually they often did under the auspices of being a collaborator - working in a factory often was enough to brand you as one of those. Other times civilians were the collateral damage of acts of sabotage. Finally, there were many brutal excesses on their own population (sometimes on other, rival, resistance groups) of many resistance groups following allied liberation.

Whether you accept it or not there has always been a rather fine line between terrorism and freedom fighting, largely dependant on who was making the description.

Sleepy

I don't think we should be ashamed of our neutrality during the war as there was no practical help we could give as a nation. Many of our citizens joined the British army to fight against the Nazi forces and we should be proud of those brave men and women.

The statue itself, we should be ashamed of. I have to say though that I'd be no more horrified by that statue than the republican movement itself. Blind patriotism is a truly terrifying thing.

'My enemy's enemy is my friend' is a maxim that cannot be applied to Nazi Germany. If your enemy's enemy is guilty of worse crimes than your enemy, you have no moral, logical or even tenuous legitimacy to attempts to defend colluding with them.

So the US is now in two countries (Afganistan/Iraq), who will step up when they hit a third?

I doubt anyone will.

'My enemy's enemy is my friend' is a maxim that cannot be applied to Nazi Germany. If your enemy's enemy is guilty of worse crimes than your enemy, you have no moral, logical or even tenuous legitimacy to attempts to defend colluding with them.

You can't apply that maxim now, that we know the activities that we're applied during WW2, however, during the period of 1939 to 1945 you could. Word of the atrocities only became mainstream knowledge after the allies came across the dead camps when they entered Germany proper, and Russia entered Poland. It wasn't common knowledge. For the IRA, the german war machine was just the wehrmacht, being victorious against the allies.

The statue itself, we should be ashamed of. I have to say though that I'd be no more horrified by that statue than the republican movement itself. Blind patriotism is a truly terrifying thing.

Why? We are a nation that was born out of a republician movement. A success of a guerilla war. The statue is part of that. It has nothing to do with Nazism.

Sleepy

Deleted User wrote:

You can't apply that maxim now, that we know the activities that we're applied during WW2, however, during the period of 1939 to 1945 you could. Word of the atrocities only became mainstream knowledge after the allies came across the dead camps when they entered Germany proper, and Russia entered Poland. It wasn't common knowledge. For the IRA, the german war machine was just the wehrmacht, being victorious against the allies.

Firstly, ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law and I don't think it is in the eyes of history either. Secondly, every living sould in Europe at the time knew that the nazi's were an evil force that were invading other countries for their "liebensraum" because they felt that their Aryan blood made them better than the rest of the world and therefore more deserving of it.

Why? We are a nation that was born out of a republician movement. A success of a guerilla war. The statue is part of that. It has nothing to do with Nazism.

Apart from the fact that the subject died on a Nazi U-boat, collaborated with Nazis during the war and invited them to invade Ireland you mean? Are republicans so bloody blind that they'll celebrate a man who invited another nation to invade us purely because they weren't English? :rolleyes:

You people are the reason this world is so fúcked up.

true

Deleted User wrote:

You can't apply that maxim now, that we know the activities that we're applied during WW2, however, during the period of 1939 to 1945 you could. Word of the atrocities only became mainstream knowledge after the allies came across the dead camps when they entered Germany proper, and Russia entered Poland. It wasn't common knowledge. For the IRA, the german war machine was just the wehrmacht, being victorious against the allies.

Why? We are a nation that was born out of a republician movement. A success of a guerilla war. The statue is part of that. It has nothing to do with Nazism.

It was known before and during WW2 that the Nazi party considered the Germans the master race. They invaded all the countries around them , including neutral ones when it suited them. What about Kristalnacht in Germany before the war? This happened long before Russell got in to the U-boat. In contrast to the UK and US, how many Jewish refugees did Ireland allow in? Roughly a few dozen, I think. Probably about as many as it hunted out of Limerick in the 20's.


Putting up an IRA statue in a public place in Dublin, to an ally of Nazism, is an insult to the over one hundred thousand Irishmen from both sides of the border, who fought and freed Europe from Nazism. It would not be tolerated in any other European country.

There is a saying : "birds of a feather flock together". You can judge a man by his friends. We can judge Russell and his gang by the company it chose to keep, not unlike recent events. ( ETA, FARC etc )

The Corinthian

Sleepy wrote:

Firstly, ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law and I don't think it is in the eyes of history either.

Sounds like the kind of logic that was employed to assume that Iraq was harbouring WMD.

Secondly, every living sould in Europe at the time knew that the nazi's were an evil force that were invading other countries for their "liebensraum" because they felt that their Aryan blood made them better than the rest of the world and therefore more deserving of it.

Really? Is that so? Then explain this, for example...

“If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable [as Hitler] to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations?” - Winston Churchill, 1937

“I do not consider Hitler to be as bad as he is depicted. He is showing an ability that is amazing and seems to be gaining his victories without much bloodshed” - Mahatma Gandhi, 1940

So it was obviously not as obvious to every living soul as it apparently is to those with the benefit of hindsight...

true wrote:

Putting up an IRA statue in a public place in Dublin, to an ally of Nazism, is an insult to the over one hundred thousand Irishmen from both sides of the border, who fought and freed Europe from Nazism. It would not be tolerated in any other European country.

Actually it is. At the Foro Italico in Rome, a massive obelisk still remains with on it the words “MVSSOLINI DVX” inscribed.

true

Quote : "Actually it is. At the Foro Italico in Rome, a massive obelisk still remains with on it the words “MVSSOLINI DVX” inscribed."

Ah, but bad and all as Mussolini was, at least he and his soldiers dressed in uniforms and fought openly in battle, according to the geneva convention. The IRA were / are terrorists. Mussolini is long gone , and according to the grinning Grizzly " the IRA have not gone away, you know "

sceptre

true wrote:

Ah, but bad and all as Mussolini was, at least he and his soldiers dressed in uniforms and fought openly in battle, according to the geneva convention. The IRA were / are terrorists.

Ah now in the interests of fairness you don't get to play the game that way. As far as I can see (and correct me if I'm wrong), your main objection to this statue is that he collaborated with the Nazis and his own role as a murderer, terrorist and general annoyance to decent folk is secondary.

The fact is that it does appear to be tolerated in at least one other location in Europe (at the entrance to Rome's Olympic stadium) as mentioned by TC and that particular monument is a not-inconsequential 36 metres high.

Not that I'd personally agree with having a statue to Sean Russell in a public place anyway mind - apart from my not agreeing with his aims or methods (or probably his choice of drinking buddies), kowtowing to the Nazis and requesting their aid in an attempt to achieve his own aims reminds me a small bit of the actions of one Diarmuid McMurrough imho (and we all remember how well that worked out)

true

Fair points. I do not like Russells statue for both reasons : the IRA connection and the Nazi connection. I do not like Mussolinis statue either : but just because his is in Rome does not make Russells OK. Mussolini was elected by the people, as far as I am aware. Far more Irish people actually fought on the Allied side in WW2 than ever fought for the Fuhrer and the IRA put together.

Just my twopence worth : everyone is entitled to their opinion, thank God.

Billy Kovachy

My god I dony know who taught you people history but it is sure lacking. The reason why Ireland was neutral in the Second world war was an International statement that Ireland was Independent.It said to the world that after 400 years of irish citizens conscripted into British army and our sea ports put into use on the behest of Britain would be no more.It was a proud moment for this nation and not one as the title suggests one of shame.The reason why so many thousand irish volunteers fought in the first world war was the same as why we were neutral in the second,Indepedence.
We could say that our lands and people were free to the world.Like I said a proud moment.And for this thread to even start to say that it was shameful of us to be neutral when over 200,000 irishmen fought in the second world war is really pathetic.When irish fire brigades drove north to put out the flames of belfast after luftwafe bombing raids was that being shameful.When the Allied planes crashed we transported them across the border to the north.However for german pilots we placed them in prison.Was that being pro-German.German spys brought in by the IRA were hunted down the longest only had a coulpe of months in this country.While we reported U-boat positions to the Allies.And sure have a look at this site and see how shameful we were in the second world war
http://www.irishseamensrelativesassociation.org/History%20WW2.htm
How about even our weather reports which were crucial to Operation Overlord as the Royal Ulster rifles flew into Normandy on gliders to make the way for beach landings on D-Day.
So to suggest that our stance in the war just shows the arrogance and ignorance of this current generation of its own past.A nation which went to war and did not go to war and gave every sacrifice for this countrys Independence.

Firstly, ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law and I don't think it is in the eyes of history either. Secondly, every living sould in Europe at the time knew that the nazi's were an evil force that were invading other countries for their "liebensraum" because they felt that their Aryan blood made them better than the rest of the world and therefore more deserving of it.

No they didn't. At the time of the war, the Nazi's were a political party in control of Germany. It was the Wehrmacht that was generating the victories against the allies, and the world saw Germany as a european power. Evil didn't come into it except for those within the occupied territories. Many countries have histories of pointing out their superiority.... France in cambodia, Britain in India, KKK groups in the States etc. The German belief was one going back hundreds of years....

Apart from the fact that the subject died on a Nazi U-boat, collaborated with Nazis during the war and invited them to invade Ireland you mean? Are republicans so bloody blind that they'll celebrate a man who invited another nation to invade us purely because they weren't English?

I'm not a republician. I don't give much of a **** abt the north. But the IRA would have been willing to deal with the Devil to get the North free. Its called fanaticism. The same fanaticism that caused the irish to ask the French for help years ago....

And he dies on a military submarine, in talks with miltary intelligence. It wasn't an arm of the Gestapo, the execution squads etc. You label better than anyone I've heard on these boards before... Not everyone in Germany was a Nazi. Hell, the majority of the armed forces weren't nazi's themselves. Its the same as if i said that every Palestinian (every man and woman) was a terrorist. I'd get my head ripped off for labelling.

I do not like Mussolinis statue either : but just because his is in Rome does not make Russells OK. Mussolini was elected by the people, as far as I am aware.

Funny. So was Hitler. Odd that.

So it was obviously not as obvious to every living soul as it apparently is to those with the benefit of hindsight...

Ditto.

Boggle

Firstly, ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law and I don't think it is in the eyes of history either.

Did you think about this before you wrote it did you??? Course its an excuse! You choose your side based on the knowledge at hand - not on knowledge you'll get in 4 years. (Can't believe no-one else pointed this out!!)

Dont forget the British wouldn't have, historically speaking, had a spotless track record either. And that was well known at the time.

Sleepy

My point is that we have the benefit of hindsight. And with that benefit, we should have the decency not to celebrate anyone who was involved with such an evil force.

My point is that we have the benefit of hindsight. And with that benefit, we should have the decency not to celebrate anyone who was involved with such an evil force.

And my point is that to blame someone for seeking help off a group who at that time were respectable, and only became "evil" after the war, is somewhat wrong. He wasn't associated with the Nazi's but rather the military itself, since an invasion of Ireland would be a military matter. Any support within Ireland for the IRA would have been a matter for military intelligence not the Nazi's.

People are posting here as if he was dealing with the nazi's as if he full well knew what they were doing. he likely knew no more than anyone else outside of government circles. The actions they are celebrating is in regards to his republicianism not who he associated with over his lifetime.

The Corinthian

Sleepy wrote:

My point is that we have the benefit of hindsight.

That may be your point now, but it wasn't a few posts ago...

true

Billy Kovachy wrote:

My god I dony know who taught you people history but it is sure lacking. . Our sea ports put in to use for Britain would be no more.
We could say that our lands and people were free to the world.Like I said a proud moment.

"My god I dony know who taught you history" or anything else either ? - the christian Brothers? Our sea ports were very free to the world all right during WW2. Maybe free to Russell on the u-boat, but free to the free world ? Many a merchant seaman died in the freezing north Atlantic, so you could brag "our lands and people were free to the world" I am sure the people in Auchwitz and Birkenau and Dachau and all the other concentration camps thanked you for it. It was the British who kept our lands and people free during WW2 , just like during the cold war. Our government hid under her umbrella when it rained, yet complained about it when it did not rain. .

jank

"My god I dony know who taught you history" or anything else either ? - the christian Brothers? Our sea ports were very free to the world all right during WW2. Maybe free to Russell on the u-boat, but free to the free world ? Many a merchant seaman died in the freezing north Atlantic, so you could brag "our lands and people were free to the world" I am sure the people in Auchwitz and Birkenau and Dachau and all the other concentration camps thanked you for it. It was the British who kept our lands and people free during WW2 , just like during the cold war. Our government hid under her umbrella when it rained, yet complained about it when it did not rain. .

Give it a rest please true

Billy Kovachy

I was referring to the three threaty ports which where under British control after the Anglo-Irish threaty and which Dev got back along with getting rid of the oath of alligence.The British French and Russians can be thanked for allowing Hitler to advance into the rhineland,Austria,Sudetenland and consistantly breaking the Versaille Threaty which should have restricted the German army numbers and technology.The British where destroyed and nearing bankruptcy after the war,a nation which the irish helped to rebuild.It was the nuclear bomb which halted the red armies march across Europe after the war.The irish brigades were at every front line from the Africa campaign to Berlin.Once again the lack of intelligence is shown by this generation again.

arcadegame2004

true wrote:

"My god I dony know who taught you history" or anything else either ? - the christian Brothers? Our sea ports were very free to the world all right during WW2. Maybe free to Russell on the u-boat, but free to the free world ? Many a merchant seaman died in the freezing north Atlantic, so you could brag "our lands and people were free to the world" I am sure the people in Auchwitz and Birkenau and Dachau and all the other concentration camps thanked you for it. It was the British who kept our lands and people free during WW2 , just like during the cold war. Our government hid under her umbrella when it rained, yet complained about it when it did not rain. .

Well in fairness the Soviets played a bigger part than the British, and lost millions more men, women and children.

You also seem to forget that the British were the first to introduce concentration camps, killing tens of thousands of men, women and children in them in the Boer War.

The British helping to defend Ireland should be seen as compensation for 700 years of brutal oppression, including genocide, artificial famine, religious and political persecution and discrimination, as well as suppression of our economy. Stalinist is probably a suitable term to describe much of the period of British rule, so don't try to guilt-trip me on us being neutral. Them defending us made a welcome change from massacring, starving, and persecuting us!

clearz

Any jew that says I should be ashamed can kiss my Irish catholic arse. Do they ever stop crying about WW2. God dam it that **** is going on round the world as we speak in Africa and I dont hear our good black friends down on parnell street and elseware complaining half as much. And anyway nobody knew what was going on until after the war let alone some hic taoiseach in Ireland.[size=-1]
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true

true wrote:

"My god I dony know who taught you history" or anything else either ? - the christian Brothers?

Lol. Actually I did go to the Christian Brothers as a national school, and my 6th Class teacher was brilliant as a history Teacher. So, where does your feeling that Christian Brothers can't teach history? Another comment not based anywhere near fact? :rolleyes:

true wrote:

Many a merchant seaman died in the freezing north Atlantic, so you could brag "our lands and people were free to the world"

Nope. They died for two major reasons. Lend lease, and the fact that both Britain and the US were at war with Germany. Nothing in the slightest to do with us. they didn't go to war because we were threatened. Britain was already at war with Germany since 1939.

If someone had fallen from a ladder across the world, would that have been our fault also?

true wrote:

I am sure the people in Auchwitz and Birkenau and Dachau and all the other concentration camps thanked you for it.

I doubt that they gave a ****e about us. They had their own problems. Ireland and its neutrality meant nothing to them. Amazing that you think Ireland's neutrality was more important than their desire to survive.

It was the British who kept our lands and people free during WW2 , just like during the cold war.

Err, no. No. No. No. No. No. No. and one more time. No. Its funny that you credit the country Irish men had to fight less that 30 years previously, with preserving their freedom. Are you Irish, true? You don't sound like you like being Irish very much, or any faith in Ireland as a nation.

It was more than the British that defeated Germany. And they didn't do it to keep Ireland free. They did it to keep themselves free, and to stop the threat that Germany had towards their colonies (i.e. so while they're keeping us free, they're still occupying India and other colonies. Strange that). Just as every other country was at war with Germany, they were looking after their Self-preservation.

As for the Cold war. Bla. Nothing in the slightest to do with Ireland. Care to point out how the Soviet Union at any stage during the Cold war ever threatened Ireland?

See, the problem I have with your posts, True, is that you're so bloody melodramatic.

cdebru

what we should have done was to take in more refugees

if we have anything to be ashamed of it would be that we turned refugees away when it was clear they were in dire need

FatherTed

clearz wrote:

Any jew that says I should be ashamed can kiss my Irish catholic arse. Do they ever stop crying about WW2. [size=-1]
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Maybe you would feel differently if Irish Catholics were the ones gased instead of the Jews.

If Britain was overrun by the Germans, Ireland was next on the list. How long would we have lasted? About 20 minutes. I'm sure a lot of us would be complaining that noone came to our aid in our time of need in WWII. But when the shoe is on the other foot, it's ok for us to say ah sure what could we do. But it's typical, not much backbone these Irish pols have, much like "condemning" the war in Iraq yet allowing US planes into Shannon.