Does SF/IRA actually want a conclusion to the peace process?

freedom's jcb · 17-01-2005 12:36am

The IRA get everything in the good friday agreement

Like what?,The ira didnt fight a war for cross border bodies,equality etc.what do people think that the republican commuinity have benefitted from the gfa agreement?not sdlp nationalism or southern nationalism but the republican community because from where im standing we have got nothing.
i dont want people to join rival groups to sinn fein or the pira because id prefer if people stayed within the movement and have their say instead of letting adams,mcguinness and their supporters have complete and total power in making policies which inevitably mean republicans giving more and receiving less.
i can only but wonder why people criticise sinn fein so much when they are systematically doing the dirty work of the loyalists,the brits and the southern goverment in removing the ira and not only that but destroying every republican principle in the process.
i cant help but feel total disgust at the excreta sinn fein throw out that they will see an united ireland by 2016,and i ask how will they do this when the dup wont even speak to them and the british government with their friends in the south of ireland wont step in when dup demand total surrender while 13,500 british troops remain in ireland and the loyalist gunman prowl the streets?
sinn fein expect that when the dup are being shown to be instrigent that it will make them look good for being willing to compromise and where has it got them?,not only that but i cant help but wonder at all the bull**** buzzwords that sinn fein throw out like "securocrats and rejectionist unionism" and looking at the pira statements recently its not hard to see sinn fein's influence in the army ,how long can this interference continue?
ill never support decommissioning because its surrender no matter which way you look at it and people in the south who havent probably seen a british army soldier or seen a cursed army helicopter plague the skies in the north think that is shouldnt be a big deal that the ira should decommission and completely surrender while the british troops remain,well if the british army left ireland the ira or the other republican groups wouldnt have any targets would they and wouldnt this be a better option instead of splitting the provo's which will resume the armed struggle?

true · 17-01-2005 12:57am

lol freedoms jcb you should really keep writing like that and one day maybe you will write for the simpsoins and portray the loyalist gunmen prowling the streets and the cursed army helicoptors that plague the skies maybe the view from free west waterford looks like that the sentence that you are right about is the first one "the ira didnt fight a war for cross border bodies, equality etc."

You are right : the IRA is not interested in equality, after all the bombs and bullets and propaganda it dosed out. It wants inequality, on its own terms.

jbkenn · 17-01-2005 1:27am

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

True but you do appear ashamed.

On the contrary, I am intensely proud of the men and women who took on an Empire and won our freedom, and I take grave exception to low life scum who hijack their sacrifice, to cloak their criminality.

Like I said, you know nothing about me, or my background

jbkenn

A Dub in Glasgo · 17-01-2005 1:31am

jbkenn wrote:

Like I said, you know nothing about me, or my background

jbkenn

Is this some sort of test? am I meant to know you?

billy the squid · 17-01-2005 2:37am

Like what?,The ira didnt fight a war for cross border bodies,equality etc.what do people think that the republican commuinity have benefitted from the gfa agreement?not sdlp nationalism or southern nationalism but the republican community because from where im standing we have got nothing.

the only cross border groups the IRA are interested in is contraband smuggling accross the border.. The IRA have gained from the good friday agreement. their representatives in sinn fein have been invited and participated in talks since the GFA came into effect. people are actually listening to them, where as before we had the likes of section 31 of the broadcasting Act putting a gag on Sinn fein.

we also have some prisoners getting early release.

we have the restructuring of the police force. this will take years as the manpower is simply not there to have 50/50 ratio of catholics and protestants in the PSNI at the click of a finger.

and what do the IRA offer in return. raiding cigarette warehouses and banks.

What is the difference between SDLP nationalism and Sinn fein nationalism so if you are so clever, they both want a united ireland dont they?

It also feels like you got nothing because in monaghan where you claim to be you already have all the things that the catholic community are getting thanks to the good friday agreement. If you were living in the north you would see the difference. but your not. another armchair terrorist.

i can only but wonder why people criticise sinn fein so much when they are systematically doing the dirty work of the loyalists,the brits and the southern goverment in removing the ira and not only that but destroying every republican principle in the process.

"they havent gone away you know - Gerry adams on the IRA.

the IRA still have guns, they are still involved in crime, what has shin fein ever done for us. nothing. anything sinn fein have produced, i e the IRA ceasefire has been met with equal ceasefires from the unionist groups.

due to the lack of new paragraphs, full stops, and the like the rest of your post makes no sence to me.

oh and out of curiosity freedom's jcb, which political party do you support, sinn fein, or republican sinn fein.

17-01-2005 10:58am

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I can guess it but the statement

The IRA, be it PIRA, CIRA, RIRA or any other form on "RA" you want, are criminals, have always been criminals

indicates otherwise

He didn't mention the old IRA, ask him,he's clearly referring to the current lot who bear no relation ot that of the start of the 20th century.

FTA69 · 17-01-2005 8:19pm

billy the squid wrote:

yet you can copy and paste quotes from other users.

My right-click is not functioning, I quote by highlighting the text and clicking on the quote button at the top.

and dont tell me i cherry picked these they were the first five stories using your keywords that came up on google. they don't put the republican protesters in a very good light now do they.

They state exactly what the Republican protestors were doing, defending their area from bigots and their police and British Army cohorts. If someone penned you into your own estate with the use of force in order to accomodate a march waving pendants of sectarian killers how would you react? The people who defended their area on that day were perfectly entitled to do such.

did you read that bit about the UDA threats in on Pobleacht too?

They made a public statement to that effect.

I'm sure that the paratroop and RUC members who were involved in bloody sunday were long since retired in 2004 when these incidents happened last summer. many of the security forces were not even born when bloody sunday happened. so you cannot hold people responsible for something their employer did long before they were born.

I'm sure most IRA members weren't even alive at the time of many bombings etc but yet you balme them for it anyway (and rightly so). The fact remains the Parachute Regiment committed that atrocity (and many others) in Ireland and last July showed them up for the thugs they still are today.

whose poining the children, who are the drug dealers, what the **** are you rambling on about.

I said drug-dealers were poisoning children with their filth, who are the drug dealers? They are quite common in working class areas, I thought you were from one? What am I "rambling on about"? I am saying that the police accomodate dealers in exchange for political information.

why do I call them criminals. because incitement to violence is a crime, robbery is a crime, assault is a crime, murder is a crime.

I suppose you consider the IRA of the 20s criminal then do you? After all, they did commit all the actions you listed above when they were declared "illegal".

there was another robbery in may of 2004 where 1.3 million worth of cigarettes were taken from a gallagher warehouse in the north.

And were the IRA proved responsible for this?

yes but are they the same peelers who protected catholic children as they went to school yes or no.

I never said they didn't billy, I simply put the activities of the force in context.

FTA69 · 17-01-2005 8:27pm

Right so you believe in ex judicary killings, intimidation of private citizens, restriction of a persons human rights, and contempt for someone who engages in the legal system.

In other words I agree with the execution of those who inform on Óglaigh na hÉireann, the IRA has killed informers since 1916, why Collins expected any different is beyond me.

So feel his murder by paramilitaries was justified, while at the same time demand the release of Mc Cabe's killers. The IRA get everything in the good friday agreement, the families of people killed by IRA murders don't even get the small satisfication of finding the corpses of their love ones. Never mind any semblance of justice of the IRA exposing the names of the thugs who killed them.

I see you have gone off on a rant about actions committed by the IRA during the war and have again acted as if the only victims in Ireland are those of the IRA. There are thousands of people who are grieving over their relatives being killed by Loyalist death-squads, the police and the British Army. Even though the IRA has apologised for the non-combatants it killed, as well as co-operating with the investigation into the dissappeared, there has been little reciprocation from Loyalists or the British establishment. Harping on about one side of the conflict does nobody any sort of good at all mycroft.

I'm not your friend "a chara" and enlight us about what the branch are up to.

Please dying to find out.

The same counter-insurgent tactics they always used, beatings, arrests, harassment, threats, intimidation, harassment of relatives and the bugging of phones. Same old, same old...

FTA69 · 17-01-2005 8:41pm

billy the squid wrote:

the only cross border groups the IRA are interested in is contraband smuggling accross the border.. The IRA have gained from the good friday agreement. their representatives in sinn fein have been invited and participated in talks since the GFA came into effect. people are actually listening to them, where as before we had the likes of section 31 of the broadcasting Act putting a gag on Sinn fein.

So now you support the censorship of elected representatives? Why not set up a gulag in Cavan altogether? Section 31 was reminicent of the USSR, China or apartheid South Africa, it was wrong, the people believe it is wrong and I am saddened to see people espousing its virtues in this day and age. Republicans have indeed made some gains billy, they have also made important commitments and sacrifices.

we have the restructuring of the police force. this will take years as the manpower is simply not there to have 50/50 ratio of catholics and protestants in the PSNI at the click of a finger.

As I repeatedly stated on this board, the 50/50 ratio is not the be all and end all of policing reform, it is simply a part of it. What is equally, if not more important, is the restructuring of the policing ethos and the slashing of the intelligence community which has been responsible for continued collusion.

and what do the IRA offer in return.

A complete cessation of military activities (in the face of extreme provication) as well as various acts of putting arms beyond use to lubricate the peace process.

What is the difference between SDLP nationalism and Sinn fein nationalism so if you are so clever, they both want a united ireland dont they?

Republicanism is not about simply achieving a united Ireland, it is about installing a just and equitable social system. The SDLP are a weak and floundering party and while they always accepted the occupation we never did, and never will.

It also feels like you got nothing because in monaghan where you claim to be you already have all the things that the catholic community are getting thanks to the good friday agreement. If you were living in the north you would see the difference. but your not. another armchair terrorist.

Another? I am I the "other" billy? I would simply love to hear your reasons how I am an "armchair terrorist", that is of course if you are refferring to me at all.

the IRA still have guns,

So has everyone else.

what has shin fein ever done for us.

Ask our electorate, not to mention the broader picture of securing an IRA cessation and subsequent acts of decommisioning.

the IRA ceasefire has been met with equal ceasefires from the unionist groups.

Equal? Like the good people in the UVF who initiated pogroms in the Short Strand and those in the UDA who started up pogroms against Nationalists in Ligoneil as well as the Chinese and Portugese communities in Belfast? The people who murdered Gerard Lwalor for wearing a Celtic jersey?

due to the lack of new paragraphs, full stops, and the like the rest of your post makes no sence to me.

oscarBravo · 17-01-2005 8:45pm

freedom's jcb wrote:

Like what?,The ira didnt fight a war for cross border bodies,equality etc.

The IRA fought a "war" for their own agenda. The majority on this island - north, south and combined - do not subscribe to that agenda.

freedom's jcb wrote:

what do people think that the republican commuinity have benefitted from the gfa agreement?not sdlp nationalism or southern nationalism but the republican community because from where im standing we have got nothing.

I don't see any republican prisoners marching back into their cells, do you?

freedom's jcb wrote:

i dont want people to join rival groups to sinn fein or the pira because id prefer if people stayed within the movement and have their say instead of letting adams,mcguinness and their supporters have complete and total power in making policies which inevitably mean republicans giving more and receiving less.

Some republicans just don't seem to get democracy, do they? "We're a minority and things aren't going our way, so let's set up a splinter group in which we're a majority."

freedom's jcb wrote:

i can only but wonder why people criticise sinn fein so much when they are systematically doing the dirty work of the loyalists,the brits and the southern goverment in removing the ira and not only that but destroying every republican principle in the process.

Southern government? Oh, you mean the Irish government. Removing the IRA is a Good Thing. What republican principles are Sinn Féin destroying? The imposition of the will of the minority through the use of terrorism? Not a principle I'll miss, thanks.

Incidentally, I'm a little surprised FTA69 isn't engaging freedom's jcb in debate - it's his party that's being attacked, after all.

freedom's jcb wrote:

i cant help but feel total disgust at the excreta sinn fein throw out that they will see an united ireland by 2016,and i ask how will they do this when the dup wont even speak to them and the british government with their friends in the south of ireland wont step in when dup demand total surrender while 13,500 british troops remain in ireland and the loyalist gunman prowl the streets?

They'll do it by talking. You know, conversation. Discussion. Negotiation. Give a little, take a little. It may be slow, but it's better than killing people. And there is give and take, despite what you think. If you don't believe republicans have gained anything from the process, you should talk to some unionists. Not kill: talk to. You might learn something.

freedom's jcb wrote:

sinn fein expect that when the dup are being shown to be instrigent that it will make them look good for being willing to compromise and where has it got them?

It almost gained them some respect. If they drew a line in the sand and permanently rejected violence, they'd gain a whole lot more.

freedom's jcb wrote:

not only that but i cant help but wonder at all the bull**** buzzwords that sinn fein throw out like "securocrats and rejectionist unionism" and looking at the pira statements recently its not hard to see sinn fein's influence in the army ,how long can this interference continue?

Frankly, that's a terrifying attitude. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it suggests an attitude that all this boring peace stuff is getting in the way of the real business of republicanism, which is violence.

freedom's jcb wrote:

ill never support decommissioning because its surrender no matter which way you look at it

You're incapable of seeing a future where there's no need for an illegal paramilitary organisation in Ireland?

freedom's jcb wrote:

people in the south who havent probably seen a british army soldier or seen a cursed army helicopter plague the skies in the north think that is shouldnt be a big deal that the ira should decommission and completely surrender while the british troops remain

I've seen (and spoken to) soldiers in Northern Ireland. I've watched the helicopters fly overhead. It's not a big deal. Here's the reality of the situation: as long as Northern Ireland remains part of the United Kingdom, the British army will stay there. As long as the IRA reserve the right to hold on to their guns, they will stay there in force.

freedom's jcb wrote:

well if the british army left ireland...

The British army are not in Ireland. [1]

freedom's jcb wrote:

...the ira or the other republican groups wouldnt have any targets would they and wouldnt this be a better option instead of splitting the provo's which will resume the armed struggle?

It's naive to the point of braindeath to suggest that there would be no violence in Northern Ireland if the army left.

[1] I'm not repeating this point ad nauseam to be tiresome; I'm repeating it in response to the constant and factually inaccurate suggestion that the British army are illegally in Ireland. They're not. Stop saying they are.

oscarBravo · 17-01-2005 8:48pm

FTA69 wrote:

In other words I agree with the execution of those who inform on Óglaigh na hÉireann

Sinn Féin, the Law and Order party.

'nuff said, tbh.

FTA69 · 17-01-2005 9:08pm

I've seen (and spoken to) soldiers in Northern Ireland. I've watched the helicopters fly overhead. It's not a big deal. Here's the reality of the situation: as long as Northern Ireland remains part of the United Kingdom, the British army will stay there.

British troops are not in this country simply because the Six Counties are just another part of the UK. Their position here is neither innocuous or irrelevant as you would have some believe. Look at the circumstances in which they arrived, deployed in "aid of the civil power" ie the Falkner and his internment-introducing government of bigots. Look at how they remain here ie amongst big brother style surveillance and widespread intimidation of people who do not want them there. I'm glad you might think the military prescence is "not a big deal at all" but excuse the relatives of those they have killed in the past if they beg to differ.

As long as the IRA reserve the right to hold on to their guns, they will stay there in force.

And as long as the brits remain here in Ireland the IRA reserve the right to retain their arms. Regardless what face you would like to put on it oscar, Nationalists will never accept an occupying force in this country. Ever.

The British army are not in Ireland.

Armagh, Antrim, Fermanagh, Derry, Tyrone and Down are part of "Ireland" oscar, they always have been and they always will be. I'd love to hear your arguments to suggest how they are not part of Ireland.

Alex27 · 17-01-2005 9:24pm

Republicanism is not about simply achieving a united Ireland, it is about installing a just and equitable social system.

Very interesting.

In other words I agree with the execution of those who inform on Óglaigh na hÉireann, the IRA has killed informers since 1916, why Collins expected any different is beyond me.

And Americans exported slaves for quite long time before realising what they are doing. Its not 1916 now but 2005. Wake up. Btw IRA can`t kill all brave men who are opposing crime. And I don`t think that all volunteers share your point of view. Certainly some of them like to live in peace only most of them are afraid to oppose leadership.And who can blame them. It`s take a lot to stand up for peace and democracy especially in North. Yet together community and police can clean the house. An active dialog is needed imho especially with so called grass root support groups. The moment they see that paramilitaries are part of their problems not solution alot will be changed. What would you do FTA if you would discover that your close relative commited a murder?Would you report him?Drug barons often kill informers and other gangs try to intimidate people, how IRA is different?

Most IRA members are known and tolerated only so long unless there is a positive change. Democratic majority rules in the long term like it or not.

P.S Have British army commited abuses on a wide scale recently? What about paramilitaries beating, intimidating and robbing at the same time?

true · 17-01-2005 9:57pm

FTA69 wrote:

British troops are not in this country simply because the Six Counties are just another part of the UK. Their position here is neither innocuous or irrelevant as you would have some believe.

They are here because of the IRA. If there was no IRA or terrorist threat then they would be no more of a presence in N. Ireland than anywhere else eg Wales, Scotland or Munster. They are not very evident now anyway : in the last dozen or so visits I made to Northern Ireland, I cannot remember seeing a British soldier or a helicoptor.

Even during the troubles, I ( as a visitor from south of the border , with a southern reg. no. plate ) always found them very polite and friendly, as I found the RUC. I was nice to them, and they were nice to me. Fair is fair. I would imagine that the people who give lip and insults to the army / security services usually only made trouble for themselves, the same as would happen with most armies / security services the world over.

freedom's jcb · 17-01-2005 10:35pm

Have British army commited abuses on a wide scale recently?

The fact that they have committed abuses is bad enough regardless of how recent.

What is the difference between SDLP nationalism and Sinn fein nationalism so if you are so clever, they both want a united ireland dont they?

Well billy i dont have to respond to your ignorant grunts that you somehow turn into a question and normally i wouldnt,But on this occasion i will tell you,the sdlp have always accepted the british in our land while sinn fein have not (although that's very debateable these days).

another armchair terrorist.

I'll not even pass any remarks on that sort of name calling only to say if you need to resort to that harmless petty name calling to further your argument then your a pretty sad individual.

oh and out of curiosity freedom's jcb, which political party do you support, sinn fein, or republican sinn fein.

I support neither, because sinn fein arent to be trusted with the republican movement anymore while gerry and martin control it with an iron fist and hound out anyone who questions their policy like the sinn fein activists who were part of the 32 csm and members who dont support decommissioning.
As for republican sinn fein, although they have been right in the predictions of what would happen within psf, i still cant support the splinter republican parties who protest at what sinn fein are doing because they should have stayed within the psf and engage in worthwhile politics to try and prevent gerry and martin from having complete dominance of republican policy.

you should talk to some unionists. Not kill: talk to. You might learn something.

If you are making any sort of allegation about me oscar, id like you to prove it and i have to ask also what are you implying with that statement? because allegations of that nature are very serious and ill not tolerate any slander or unwarranted claims especially from someone who doesnt know anything about me,only what you "assume" about me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it suggests an attitude that all this boring peace stuff is getting in the way of the real business of republicanism, which is violence.

Well you are wrong with all respect because what i meant is im sick of hearing sinn fein's buzzwords like "securocrats" etc because what proof have sinn fein that it was british mi5 officers who committed the robbery?And why would the british rob the bank? they have republicanism contained and what benefit would it be to have sinn fein out of the talks?
most people think that most republicans who dont support the gfa want to see the armed struggle resumed,well that is wrong as far as im concerned all i want to see is a better deal for republicans and the end of the british military machine in ireland and im not prepared to support any agreement that has ira decommissioning or surrender while the british army are in the north of ireland.

mycroft · 17-01-2005 10:38pm

FTA69 wrote:

In other words I agree with the execution of those who inform on Óglaigh na hÉireann, the IRA has killed informers since 1916, why Collins expected any different is beyond me.

brillant so it's his fault he was murdered, cause killing people is okay since it's a tradition?

I see you have gone off on a rant about actions committed by the IRA during the war and have again acted as if the only victims in Ireland are those of the IRA. There are thousands of people who are grieving over their relatives being killed by Loyalist death-squads, the police and the British Army. Even though the IRA has apologised for the non-combatants it killed, as well as co-operating with the investigation into the dissappeared, there has been little reciprocation from Loyalists or the British establishment. Harping on about one side of the conflict does nobody any sort of good at all mycroft.

I'm sorry the IRA's resent apologist is accusing me of harping on about only one side of the conflict. The only reason I'm on this thread is because you're going LALALALALA I can't hear you LALALALLALA when anyone mentions anything about the ira aren't the re inbodied spirits of Finn Mc F*cking whatever and his drinking buddies

The same counter-insurgent tactics they always used, beatings, arrests, harassment, threats, intimidation, harassment of relatives and the bugging of phones. Same old, same old...

Care to present anything as solid as proof to back up your allegations that the branch are intimidating SFers in Free West Waterford.

true · 17-01-2005 10:47pm

Freedoms JCB wrote "im not prepared to support any agreement that has ira decommissioning or surrender while the british army are in the north of ireland."

Well Freedom JCB, you seem to have the inside track on republican matters. Would you be in favour of the IRA decommissioning or surrendering if the British army left N. Ireland, to be replaced by a peacekeeping force from some other country eg France or US ? The British army has not committed abuses on a wide scale recently, you admit, so why the need to change?

freedom's jcb · 18-01-2005 1:14am

Well Freedom JCB, you seem to have the inside track on republican matters

I only offer my opinion like everyone else and i have never claimed to have the inside track on republican matters so i dont know where you get that statement from?

They are not very evident now anyway : in the last dozen or so visits I made to Northern Ireland, I cannot remember seeing a British soldier or a helicoptor.

Even during the troubles, I ( as a visitor from south of the border , with a southern reg. no. plate ) always found them very polite and friendly, as I found the RUC. I was nice to them, and they were nice to me. Fair is fair. I would imagine that the people who give lip and insults to the army / security services usually only made trouble for themselves, the same as would happen with most armies / security services the world over.

You had a good old laugh at my expense and you also said i should be writing for the simpsons for my portrayal of the british soldiers and loyalists,when you come out with such complete propaganda that ian paisley would be proud of.
The even funnier bit is you have claimed from the dozen or so trips you have made to the north recently that they are not very evident,so do you claim that the brits dont have to demilitarise because you have come up from the south a dozen times recently and havent seen a british soldier or helicopter.I would like you to tell the people who live under the watchtowers in south armagh that they arent evident or the people who live with the constant whirring of helicopter and blinding red lights through their windows that they arent evident?
I would also like to see you telling victims of police brutality,forced confessions,collusion,illegal searches and general intimidation by the police in the north of ireland that they only have themselves to blame?How can you explain that to the parents of children killed with plastic bullets?

true · 18-01-2005 1:33am

I have never seen anyone living under the watchtowers. The watchtowers were put there because of the IRA. I can tell you there is nobody living UNDER watchtowers in N. Ireland. As regards the red lights shining through windows, I have seen many a light in N. I over the years but the only red lights I ever saw through windows were in Amsterdam. As regards the constant whirring of helicoptors, I suppose there is one perched 2 feet abone the chimney above every nationalist house 24 hours a day?

I always found the police in N. I. very civil and decent, and so has everyone I know.
Perhaps a few republicans were mistreated in the distant past , I do not know or care.
I know the police themselves were the subject of mistreatment by the IRA, to put it mildly. All police forces the world over are not 100% perfect. Even the Gardai have had their bad apples, with IRA collusion, beatings , corruption etc.
.

A Dub in Glasgo · 18-01-2005 2:05am

true wrote:

I have never seen anyone living under the watchtowers. The watchtowers were put there because of the IRA. I can tell you there is nobody living UNDER watchtowers in N. Ireland.

I can tell you that a lot of the border area in South Armagh and Down are under the most sophisticated surveillance system in Europe..... From those watchtowers you seem to like.

true · 18-01-2005 2:20am

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I can tell you that a lot of the border area in South Armagh and Down are under the most sophisticated surveillance system in Europe..... From those watchtowers you seem to like.

You raise a few points
(A) I know a lot of the border area is under surveillance - but not as much as there was before the G. F. A.
(B) I should hope it is the most sophisticated surveillance system in Europe.
It is there to prevent more atrocities like there was in the past eg the Omagh bomb.
(C) I do not like the watchtowers ; you assume incorrectly when you say I do seem to like them. I look forward to the day when they are gone. I am sure the people who work in them look forward to the day when they are gone. However, they are a necessary evil as long as the IRA and the terrorist threat are around.

billy the squid · 18-01-2005 3:10am

FTA69 wrote:

They state exactly what the Republican protestors were doing, defending their area from bigots and their police and British Army cohorts.

nope it states that republicans were thrownig missiles at the police. if you dont want to watch the orange men walking up your street then go in home and watch telly or something ffs. its not like the new york st. patricks day parade is marching outside your house. how long does an orange parade take to pass one house?

If someone penned you into your own estate with the use of force in order to accomodate a march waving pendants of sectarian killers how would you react? The people who defended their area on that day were perfectly entitled to do such.

The PSNI cordened off the area because they expected **** sturrers to turn up, and they did.

They made a public statement to that effect.

who did the UDA or the parades commission, wheres the link?

I'm sure most IRA members weren't even alive at the time of many bombings etc but yet you balme them for it anyway (and rightly so). The fact remains the Parachute Regiment committed that atrocity (and many others) in Ireland and last July showed them up for the thugs they still are today.

apart from cordening off a parade route what atrocity did they do.

I said drug-dealers were poisoning children with their filth, who are the drug dealers? They are quite common in working class areas,

so because drug dealers are engaged in criminal activity it is ok for the IRA to be doing the same.

I thought you were from one? What am I "rambling on about"? I am saying that the police accomodate dealers in exchange for political information.

i was, but the subject of the thread is the IRA and Sinn fein, not drug dealers.

oh and we know how the IRA deals with people they THINK aredrug dealers, forget about due process.

I suppose you consider the IRA of the 20s criminal then do you? After all, they did commit all the actions you listed above when they were declared "illegal".

a prime example of the ****e spouted by most republicans. criminals who claim to be members of an organisation which has long since been dispanded . The IRA of today is a different group to the ira of the 20s.

I never said they didn't billy, I simply put the activities of the force in context.

yes or no the words dont seem to exist in the sinn fein vocabulary . did they or didnt they protect tohose children.

In other words I agree with the execution of those who inform on Óglaigh na hÉireann, the IRA has killed informers since 1916, why Collins expected any different is beyond me.

may i ask what the method of determining the method of guilt or innocence was used, was there a court case, was he informed of these "charges" and was he offered legal representation, was there evidence for and against, i doubt it.

I see you have gone off on a rant about actions committed by the IRA during the war and have again acted as if the only victims in Ireland are those of the IRA. There are thousands of people who are grieving over their relatives being killed by Loyalist death-squads, the police and the British Army. Even though the IRA has apologised for the non-combatants it killed,

unless they were murdered after 1996. you forgot to mention that.

So now you support the censorship of elected representatives? Why not set up a gulag in Cavan altogether? Section 31 was reminicent of the USSR, China or apartheid South Africa, it was wrong, the people believe it is wrong and I am saddened to see people espousing its virtues in this day and age. Republicans have indeed made some gains billy, they have also made important commitments and sacrifices.

read my post again. he asked what the IRA gained due to the ceasfire, and I told him. no more section 31 since the ceasefire.

As I repeatedly stated on this board, the 50/50 ratio is not the be all and end all of policing reform, it is simply a part of it. What is equally, if not more important, is the restructuring of the policing ethos and the slashing of the intelligence community which has been responsible for continued collusion.

do you think the IRA and sinn fein are going to get everything they want overnight while they still have their guns. come off that cloud your on will you.

Equal? Like the good people in the UVF who initiated pogroms in the Short Strand and those in the UDA who started up pogroms against Nationalists in Ligoneil as well as the Chinese and Portugese communities in Belfast? The people who murdered Gerard Lwalor for wearing a Celtic jersey?

did i say that every unionist group is on ceasefire, no i didnt. not all of the nationalist groups are on seasefire either. some groups on both sides including the IRA entered into a seasefire.

freedom's jcb wrote:

The fact that they have committed abuses is bad enough regardless of how recent.

so what you are saying basically is "**** the process of reconsilliation then"

now did the brittish army commit atrocities recently yes or no?

Well billy i dont have to respond to your ignorant grunts that you somehow turn into a question

both parties have the aspiration of a united ireland, it was a genuine question, what was thjedifference between sinn fein and the SDLP i how is such a question "ignorant"

sceptre · 18-01-2005 3:24am

billy the squid wrote:

how long does an orange parade take to pass one house?

An eternity apparently. I was watching some of the stuff on the telly last year and from the way people on both sides were talking, they all personally remembered the Battle of the Boyne.

And that's a hell of a long time to be arguing over whther you'd like to be ruled by a foreign Catholic King or a foreign Protestant King.

Especially while your kids are throwing stones at the other kids down the road without knowing why they're doing it.

oscarBravo · 18-01-2005 10:47am

FTA69 wrote:

British troops are not in this country simply because the Six Counties are just another part of the UK.

Thank you.

FTA69 wrote:

Their position here is neither innocuous or irrelevant as you would have some believe. Look at the circumstances in which they arrived, deployed in "aid of the civil power" ie the Falkner and his internment-introducing government of bigots. Look at how they remain here ie amongst big brother style surveillance and widespread intimidation of people who do not want them there. I'm glad you might think the military prescence is "not a big deal at all" but excuse the relatives of those they have killed in the past if they beg to differ.

Everyone has a sad story. The past isn't the future, unless you live there.

Answer me this: if there were no republican or loyalist paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland, do you think there would still be a strong army presence?

FTA69 wrote:

And as long as the brits remain here in Ireland the IRA reserve the right to retain their arms. Regardless what face you would like to put on it oscar, Nationalists will never accept an occupying force in this country. Ever.

In other words, to hell with the simple facts of the situation, as recognised by the majority in Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, the island of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the rest of the world: some republicans have their own view on the way things should be, and they're prepared to kill, maim and terrorise to get it.

There are things I don't like about this country, FTA69, but I'm not prepared to kill anyone over them. Which doesn't mean I'm not doing anything about them.

FTA69 wrote:

Armagh, Antrim, Fermanagh, Derry, Tyrone and Down are part of "Ireland" oscar, they always have been and they always will be. I'd love to hear your arguments to suggest how they are not part of Ireland.

(Ignoring for a moment the fact that you answered this yourself in the first line I quoted...) They are part of a land mass called "Ireland", sure. And as we can all tell from a glance at an atlas, there's no such thing as a land mass anywhere in the world that's divided into separate political entities. Right?

Ireland - the sovereign country, recognised by every other sovereign country on the planet - consists of 26 counties. The other six, while part of the same land mass, are not part of the country, and are not occupied by a foreign power - however much you'd like to believe they are.

freedom's jcb wrote:

If you are making any sort of allegation about me oscar, id like you to prove it and i have to ask also what are you implying with that statement? because allegations of that nature are very serious and ill not tolerate any slander or unwarranted claims especially from someone who doesnt know anything about me,only what you "assume" about me.

Sigh. OK, for the public record: I'm not alleging anything about you, and I hereby apologise for anything I might have said that might have implied by any stretch of the imagination that I alleged anything about you.

On the other hand, you're on public record as stating here that you support an illegal armed organisation, whose stated aim is the overthrow of the legitimate governments of both countries on this island through the use of armed force. You've criticised the political wing of that organisation for making concessions, claiming that they have surrendered everything and gained nothing. (I notice our local representative of that political wing still hasn't deigned to discuss this with you.) I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you're expressing a preference for achieving your goals through the threat of violence rather than through negotiation.

freedom's jcb wrote:

most people think that most republicans who dont support the gfa want to see the armed struggle resumed,well that is wrong as far as im concerned all i want to see is a better deal for republicans and the end of the british military machine in ireland and im not prepared to support any agreement that has ira decommissioning or surrender while the british army are in the north of ireland.

Better deals are secured through negotiation. Unfortunately, that means making concessions. If you're not prepared to make concessions, don't be surprised if negotiations don't proceed too smoothly.

Mighty_Mouse · 18-01-2005 12:41pm

I can tell you there is nobody living UNDER watchtowers in N. Ireland.

o lord!

The PSNI cordened off the area because they expected **** sturrers to turn up, and they did.

and again!

i.e do you see a problem with unjustified, uncontrolled, illegal, ad hoc parade policing by the RUC in catholic areas? (oops <forgot the new uniform> PSNI)

FTA69 · 18-01-2005 7:46pm

Alex27 wrote:

Btw IRA can`t kill all brave men who are opposing crime.

Informing on the IRA is not helping anyone except British intellignece, and they are not a force for either peace or decency in Ireland.

And I don`t think that all volunteers share your point of view.

You can be sure that IRA Volunteers aren't too fond of informers either.

It`s take a lot to stand up for peace and democracy especially in North.

So MI5/6, FRU, E14 and the Special Branch are all forces for peace and democracy are they? The people who shot innocent people to kill as well as colluding with Loyalists in the murders of people they deemed their own citizens. The IRA isn't the only party in this conflict, and neither are they protagonists. Informers and their rotten ilk serve no cause but the stability of a military and colonial state built on descrimination and apartheid.

Yet together community and police can clean the house. An active dialog is needed imho especially with so called grass root support groups.

This statement shows and extreme lack of understanding of the areas the IRA are supported as well as having a very patronising tone. You are ignoring the reasons why the IRA have a lot of popular support and until you address them there will always be physical force Republicanism in this country, whether the IRA or whoever comes along down the line. That is simply a statement of fact, address the causes of the conflict and the IRA will go away, they said that themselves.

Drug barons often kill informers and other gangs try to intimidate people, how IRA is different?

Because the IRA are not drug-dealers and neither are they a "gang", they are a guerilla army who were fighting for national liberation.

P.S Have British army commited abuses on a wide scale recently? What about paramilitaries beating, intimidating and robbing at the same time?

The cessation has enabled the brits to pursue their repression through the PSNI/RUC nowasays as opposed to naked military force. However, the British Army are still used ie Ardoyne last July as well as the mass raiding and intimidation of Nationalists in the Bogside and Ballymurphy over the past few months.

FTA69 · 18-01-2005 7:58pm

true wrote:

They are here because of the IRA.

No didn't come here because of the IRA, in 1969 the IRA existed in name only. They were deployed "in aid of the civil power" (the Unionist government) in order to crush Nationalists of all hues.

If there was no IRA or terrorist threat then they would be no more of a presence in N. Ireland

And the Black and Tans would not have been traversing the countryside if their "was no terrorist threat" either. As long as any opposition remains to British Rule in Ireland their will always be repression of one hue or another. I fail to see how the above legitimises their prescence in any way.

in the last dozen or so visits I made to Northern Ireland, I cannot remember seeing a British soldier or a helicoptor.

I saw plenty myself, and so do the people who live in affected areas.

Even during the troubles, I ( as a visitor from south of the border , with a southern reg. no. plate ) always found them very polite and friendly, as I found the RUC. I was nice to them, and they were nice to me. Fair is fair. I would imagine that the people who give lip and insults to the army / security services usually only made trouble for themselves, the same as would happen with most armies / security services the world over.

I suggest you read "Soldier of the Queen" by Bernard O'Mahoney, an ex-soldier who wrote his memoirs of serving in Ireland. His own story of the intimidations and abuse he inflicted on people at checkpoints speaks volumes. I suppose he's a Republican stooge also...

FTA69 · 18-01-2005 8:36pm

billy the squid wrote:

nope it states that republicans were thrownig missiles at the police.

Exactly, ie defending their area byt the means at their disposal. Neither the British Army, RUC/PSNI or the Orange Order had any right to be in that area whatsoever and unsurprisingly people reacted with the force that was shown to them.

if you dont want to watch the orange men walking up your street then go in home and watch telly or something ffs.

So even though they display huge pedants of Loyalist killers who committed sectarian murders in Ardoyne you suggest they just put up with it? Not to mention the UDA members and supporters who carrer throught the area screaming obscenities and throwing missiles. Maybe if you had the slightest idea what they were like you might be better able to comment on the issue.

The PSNI cordened off the area because they expected **** sturrers to turn up, and they did.

Stirrers who objetced to their estate being occupied and being put down by sectarian bigots? How unreasonable... :rolleyes:

who did the UDA or the parades commission

The UDA.

apart from cordening off a parade route what atrocity did they do.

Bloody Sunday as well as numerous killings of innocent people.

so because drug dealers are engaged in criminal activity it is ok for the IRA to be doing the same.

Again you manage to spectacularly miss the point billy, I said that the police grant immunity to drug-dealers in return for information on political individuals.

oh and we know how the IRA deals with people they THINK aredrug dealers, forget about due process.

People they know to be to drug-dealers you mean, these attacks will stop once the British Government implement policing reform which will enable Republicans to pursue other vehicles in community defense.

a prime example of the ****e spouted by most republicans. criminals who claim to be members of an organisation which has long since been dispanded . The IRA of today is a different group to the ira of the 20s.

Óglaigh na hÉireann never "disbanded", it remained intact and constituted throughout the Civil War and later into 1969 and beyond. You are dodging the issue however, your only reasons for labelling the IRA "criminals" are activities which the IRA in the 20s committed, but yet you don't consider them "criminals", how do you reconcile that contradiction?

yes or no the words dont seem to exist in the sinn fein vocabulary . did they or didnt they protect tohose children.

And I resent your attempts to railroad me into over-simplifying a complex political situation. Yes, they did cordon off the area but yes, they also collude with the same Loyalist organisation who pipebombed those girls and yes, they are an unreconstructed sectarian force. However, I suspect you will ignore the bigger picture and again, concentrate on microcosms.

may i ask what the method of determining the method of guilt or innocence was used, was there a court case, was he informed of these "charges" and was he offered legal representation, was there evidence for and against, i doubt it.

As I said, if the police make themselves acceptable to Nationalists that activity will be over and done with.

read my post again. he asked what the IRA gained due to the ceasfire, and I told him. no more section 31 since the ceasefire.

Section 31 was dropped in 1993, the IRA Cessation was in 1994.

do you think the IRA and sinn fein are going to get everything they want overnight while they still have their guns. come off that cloud your on will you.

It is not only Republicans who expect policing reform, nationalists in general, in fact the Irish people in general want to see police reform and accountability.

did i say that every unionist group is on ceasefire, no i didnt. not all of the nationalist groups are on seasefire either. some groups on both sides including the IRA entered into a seasefire.

No, you said it was an "equal ceasefire" which as I pointed out, isn't.

FTA69 · 18-01-2005 8:47pm

oscarBravo wrote:

Thank you.

You misconstrued that statement entirely, twisting comments is quite juvenile if I may say so oscar.

Everyone has a sad story.

Agreed, but many "sad stories" are continuously generated by the people you described as "not being a big deal".

Answer me this: if there were no republican or loyalist paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland, do you think there would still be a strong army presence?

The British Army have colluded with Loyalist death-squads so I doubt they are the reason why the brits are in Ireland. As I pointed out on another post, the British Army are only the crudest manifestation of the occupation. There were no troops here pre-1969 but the statelet's oppressive record speaks for itself. When the status quo was threatened then the brits arrived, first to quell NICRA's campaign and later the IRA's.

There are things I don't like about this country, FTA69, but I'm not prepared to kill anyone over them. Which doesn't mean I'm not doing anything about them.

The IRA are no longer engaged in armed struggle so I fail to see the current relevance of that point. However, I acknowledge where you are coming from and would like to ask you; if the brits and Unionists had not reaceted the way they did in 1969 would the IRA even be around today?

(Ignoring for a moment the fact that you answered this yourself in the first line I quoted...)

As I said, you misconstrued that.

They are part of a land mass called "Ireland", sure. And as we can all tell from a glance at an atlas, there's no such thing as a land mass anywhere in the world that's divided into separate political entities. Right?

Ireland is indeed politically divided, but it is also nationally united. All countries have their political divisions but they are not partitioned because of that.

Ireland - the sovereign country, recognised by every other sovereign country on the planet - consists of 26 counties. The other six, while part of the same land mass, are not part of the country

They aren't part of the 26 county-state, that is perfectly true, they are however part of the country of Ireland. There is a vast difference between a country and a state ie the USSR was a state consisting of many different countries eg Russia, Ukraine, Belarus etc

and are not occupied by a foreign power - however much you'd like to believe they are.

They are, and the historical foundations of the Six County state as well as the current and recent scenarios of repression speak for themselves.

oscarBravo · 18-01-2005 10:55pm

FTA69 wrote:

You misconstrued that statement entirely, twisting comments is quite juvenile if I may say so oscar.

I took it at face value. I'm not clear what else it could have meant: please feel free to elaborate.

FTA69 wrote:

Agreed, but many "sad stories" are continuously generated by the people you described as "not being a big deal".

...and many more are generated by the illegal military organisation to which your political party has strong ties. We could play the blame game in circles for days, or we could look for a solution that offers the best possible outcome for everyone concerned.

FTA69 wrote:

The British Army have colluded with Loyalist death-squads so I doubt they are the reason why the brits are in Ireland. As I pointed out on another post, the British Army are only the crudest manifestation of the occupation. There were no troops here pre-1969 but the statelet's oppressive record speaks for itself. When the status quo was threatened then the brits arrived, first to quell NICRA's campaign and later the IRA's.

That doesn't answer the question. But then, you managed to get the word "occupation" in there again, which illustrates clearly to me that you're not remotely interested in letting facts intrude on your worldview.

As an aside: I can't find a link right now, but wasn't it the nationalists that requested the army be brought in in the first place?

FTA69 wrote:

The IRA are no longer engaged in armed struggle so I fail to see the current relevance of that point. However, I acknowledge where you are coming from and would like to ask you; if the brits and Unionists had not reaceted the way they did in 1969 would the IRA even be around today?

The IRA are refusing to decommission, which clearly indicates that they are prepared to return to an "armed struggle" should they feel the need arises.

As for 1969: no-one can ever know what would have happened if past events had been different. One thing is certain: Northern Ireland would be a very different place today if nationalists had refused ever to meet violence with violence.

FTA69 wrote:

Ireland is indeed politically divided, but it is also nationally united. All countries have their political divisions but they are not partitioned because of that.

On the contrary, many are. Not long ago, there used to be a country near Italy called Yugoslavia. Things change. Most Europeans are concentrating on common ideals rather than ancestral differences. It's a refreshing outlook.

FTA69 wrote:

They aren't part of the 26 county-state, that is perfectly true, they are however part of the country of Ireland.

Without getting into a semantic debate on the meaning of the word "country", the entire population of the world, with the exception of a small minority on this island, recognise a sovereign country called "Ireland" which does not include the six counties of Northern Ireland.

FTA69 wrote:

There is a vast difference between a country and a state ie the USSR was a state consisting of many different countries eg Russia, Ukraine, Belarus etc

The USSR was a federation of states, in much the same way the USA is. For political purposes, it was, in effect, a country.

FTA69 wrote:

They are, and the historical foundations of the Six County state as well as the current and recent scenarios of repression speak for themselves.

No, FTA69, they're not, and repeating ad nauseam that they are won't make it so.

Does SF/IRA actually want a conclusion to the peace process?

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