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Does SF/IRA actually want a conclusion to the peace process?
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oscarBravo wrote:I took it at face value. I'm not clear what else it could have meant: please feel free to elaborate.
I meant that the prescence of British troops is not an innocuous, routine prescence of British troops in what you deem "the UK", they are here to play a counter-insurgency role which differs their prescence here from that of Scotland or Wales....and many more are generated by the illegal military organisation to which your political party has strong ties. We could play the blame game in circles for days, or we could look for a solution that offers the best possible outcome for everyone concerned.
Agreed.That doesn't answer the question. But then, you managed to get the word "occupation" in there again, which illustrates clearly to me that you're not remotely interested in letting facts intrude on your worldview.
Like it or not oscar the British Army being heavily stationed in areas in which they are despised, as well as their frequent shooting of people whether combatant or not makes them an occupying force. They are a foriegn army in a country which is opposed to them being there.As an aside: I can't find a link right now, but wasn't it the nationalists that requested the army be brought in in the first place?
Some did and some didn't but regardless of what some Nationalists called for at the time, the fact remains they were deployed "in aid of the civil power" (the Unioinist administration) and as such simply became another tool in the Unionist arsenal, this changed when direct rule occured and they became directly controlled by the British cabinet themselves.The IRA are refusing to decommission, which clearly indicates that they are prepared to return to an "armed struggle" should they feel the need arises.
The IRA have decommisioned 3 times and have prepared for and stated their willingness to put all their arms beyond use. Hardly the actions of a group which is planning a return to war is it? They will not however, decommision in the context of Unionist triuphalism and more importantly, no discernable guarantee that progree will continue regardless in future ie no suspensions every twon months.As for 1969: no-one can ever know what would have happened if past events had been different. One thing is certain: Northern Ireland would be a very different place today if nationalists had refused ever to meet violence with violence.
It was not the IRA that created the conditions for violence, those were 1) an apartheid and discriminatory state 2) the attempted quelling of a then-peaceful campaign for change and 3) pogroms which created the biggest forced movement of people since World War 2. Peaceful demonstrations were met with beatings, baton charges, attack dogs and as we saw on Bloody Sunday, massacres. That scenario was not going to occur again in the minds of Nationalists so many then adopted a more assertive manner of struggle.the entire population of the world, with the exception of a small minority on this island, recognise a sovereign country called "Ireland" which does not include the six counties of Northern Ireland.
They recognise the 26 County state as a soveriegn state, no argument there, but many disagree with your assertion that the Six Counties are not part of Ireland.No, FTA69, they're not, and repeating ad nauseam that they are won't make it so.
As I stated above, they are a foreign army stationed in areas they are not wanted in, that is occupation.0 -
Most of the people in N. Ireland want the troops there, for the simple reason the terrorist threat remains. IRA refusing to show proof or photos of decommissioning does not help matters. Some watchtowers have been dismantled already : all will go when the terrorist threat diminishes. The army are not visible on the streets and roads now, to all intents and purposes. As I said, the last dozen times I was there I did not see them at all. They do not bother me, and never did. They are currently an essential part of life given the extremists and weaponry / explosives still in N. Ireland. They are essential in the same way that the Irish army are essential for bank escort duties here. OK, nobody likes having the army around, but it its to uphold the law - which is fair to everyone - then so be it. Only those opposed to the law can really object. Hopefully the day will come when the armies are not needed for these kinds of duties north and south, but the IRA has only itself to blame.0
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The real question is: Does the British Government want a conclusion to the peace process.0
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Of course it does. It has enough other things to worry about in the world. A successful peace process is in their interest, as it is in the interests of people north and south. The people who seem to be not so interested are those involved in Bank Robberies, crime (eg cigarette thefts) , cross-border smuggling, racketeering etc.0
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A six hundred strong crowd from Ardoyne staged a silent protest in support of Catholics at Torrens. One hundred soldiers were called to back up police who were helping families remove possessions from houses in Torrens Parade, during the removal another woman decided to leave her home.
http://www.conflictresearch.org.uk/publications/porppubs/chronology.htmlRepublicanism is not about simply achieving a united Ireland, it is about installing a just and equitable social system.
Can you tell us a bit more about this system? Also what do you mean by installing?
You still havent answered my question.What would you do FTA if you would discover that your close relative commited a murder?Would you report him?
You dont have to answer if you don`t feel like it. Thats ok.So MI5/6, FRU, E14 and the Special Branch are all forces for peace and democracy are they? The people who shot innocent people to kill as well as colluding with Loyalists in the murders of people they deemed their own citizens. The IRA isn't the only party in this conflict, and neither are they protagonists. Informers and their rotten ilk serve no cause but the stability of a military and colonial state built on descrimination and apartheid.
Ordinary people and police are forces for peace and democracy. MI5/6, FRU, E14 and the Special Branch can serve the cause as well. They are to be ultimately accountable for their actions to the UK voters represented by the elected goverment. Many people in North want to go to work, watch telly ,go out in other words enjoy their life. They are not propagating their views with the use of violence nor they try to impose their views on others.This statement shows and extreme lack of understanding of the areas the IRA are supported as well as having a very patronising tone. You are ignoring the reasons why the IRA have a lot of popular support
What I proposing was that a goverment officials are to visist this areas ask people what kind of problems they have, tell them what can be done to remedy the situation, etc. In other word engade local folks in the dialog, let them know that goverment are for people not against people. And if they have any issues this issues can be communicated to the appropriate gov office.
Please tell what are the reasons in your opinion that makes IRA popular in certain areas.And what is the IRA purpose at the moment?
What about loyalist claiming that their paramilitaries groups help to support their point of view (North is a part of UK)? Looks to me like a small group of narrominded people, both republican and loyalist paramilitaries, who are obstructing the life of majority. Feel free to correct me.
Talking about informers well if their information can help create more peaceful society were people can walk on the streets without fear to be assaulted, robed, intimidated, etc fair play to them.
Why some people should be above the law? What`s the point in having laws then? Want to change certain law call for a referendum.Print your opinion in newspapers, etc and if enough people are willling to change it it will be cnahged. That`s how things are operated in the civilised society
P.S I fail to to see how paramilitaries actions contribute to the society, from year 2005 onwards.
Maybe some posters here can share they view on this subject.0 -
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FTA69 wrote:Exactly, ie defending their area byt the means at their disposal. Neither the British Army, RUC/PSNI or the Orange Order had any right to be in that area whatsoever and unsurprisingly people reacted with the force that was shown to them.
no it says throwing missiles, dot defending anything.So even though they display huge pedants of Loyalist killers who committed sectarian murders in Ardoyne you suggest they just put up with it? Not to mention the UDA members and supporters who carrer throught the area screaming obscenities and throwing missiles. Maybe if you had the slightest idea what they were like you might be better able to comment on the issue.
if they shouting then turn the telly up a little. the parades commission put limitations on these groups. only a certain amount of people are allowed march through nationalist estates. but the people living there have nothing better to do than to all come out of their houses and ogle at them. can they not just get on with their lives. they corden off streets for st patricks day parades too you know, and not just in the north. they know the 12th of july is coming they can do what they have to do on the 11th. whats the big deal, its just a few old men walking down the street, how long does it take for them to pass a house.Stirrers who objetced to their estate being occupied and being put down by sectarian bigots? How unreasonable... :rolleyes:
at least your willing to admit they are ****sturrers, at least we are half way there.Bloody Sunday as well as numerous killings of innocent people.
they are not celebrating bloody sunday, they are celebrating the battle of the boyne.Again you manage to spectacularly miss the point billy, I said that the police grant immunity to drug-dealers in return for information on political individuals.
if you say so, but you failed to provide evidence of this occouring post good friday agreement so your words are not worth the paper they are written on to be honest.People they know to be to drug-dealers you mean, these attacks will stop once the British Government implement policing reform which will enable Republicans to pursue other vehicles in community defense.
there was mention of a 14 year old boy with a learning disability who the IRA waylayed with baseball bats, was he a drug dealer. again how do they know have they gathered evidence, held a trial, given the defendant right to reply?Óglaigh na hÉireann never "disbanded", it remained intact and constituted throughout the Civil War and later into 1969 and beyond.
Oglaigh na Heireann is the official name of the Irish Army which is held accountable to the government of Ireland. the Provisional IRA, Continuity IRA, Real IRA, artists formally known as the IRA, I'm the IRA and so is my wife, have no connection to Oglaigh na heireann. Like I said they are two separate entities.
For a terrorist group to use the name Oglaigh na Heireann dishonors the members of the Irish army and the peacekeeping/aid work they do overseas.You are dodging the issue however, your only reasons for labelling the IRA "criminals" are activities which the IRA in the 20s committed, but yet you don't consider them "criminals", how do you reconcile that contradiction?
so you do admit then that the IRA are involved in smuggling of farm animals, deisel, and cigarettes? that constitutes as criminal activity in my books.And I resent your attempts to railroad me into over-simplifying a complex political situation. Yes, they did cordon off the area but yes, they also collude with the same Loyalist organisation who pipebombed those girls and yes, they are an unreconstructed sectarian force. However, I suspect you will ignore the bigger picture and again, concentrate on microcosms.
yes and they found aliens in roswell in 1947, more conspiracy theories, lacking proper proof.Section 31 was dropped in 1993, the IRA Cessation was in 1994.
so the governments were giving Sinn fein concessions without sinn fein having to do anything. I thought the general concensus of republicanism was that sinn fein got nothing from the brittish and irish governments.It is not only Republicans who expect policing reform, nationalists in general, in fact the Irish people in general want to see police reform and accountability.
Are you blind? the police reform is happening, it is a slow process but it is happening. what do you want, the gardai to start patrolling belfast tomorrow, its not going to happen.No, you said it was an "equal ceasefire" which as I pointed out, isn't.
some nationalist groups held a ceasefire, some unionist groups held a ceasefire. that is what i said, what is not equal about that?0 -
Healio wrote:The real question is: Does the British Government want a conclusion to the peace process.
the brittish government would rather put the billions of pounds of taxpayers money into other things rather than trying to protect both sides in the childishness that is going on in the north.0 -
The same counter-insurgent tactics they always used, beatings, arrests, harassment, threats, intimidation, harassment of relatives and the bugging of phones. Same old, same old...
Any chance you can support this claim (seeing as you've responded to everyone else in this thread) Seriously any evidence.
I only ask because SF are the masters of PR on this isle, and any time say, their offices are say bugged Adam and Guinness are quickly on the stand ripping their shirts and screaming "ARE WE NOT WRONGED!!!!!!!"*
*metaphorically
So I think oppression of SF activists in Free West Waterford by agents of the free state is the kind of story, and card that frankly Adams et all would play at this point, because they are in dire need of some good PR and frankly the Garda couldn't have a lower esteem in the general publics eye at the moment.
Furthermore spare me that the Garda are too clever and SF are too small, you're the wealthest party in the country and you have your own army trained in terrorism. Branch are too incompedent and you guys have too much experience. If the Branch were intimidating SF members in free west waterford your pr team would be screaming blue bloody murder.
So again, any evidence to support your claim or do we assume you're just another SF liar?0 -
true wrote:Most of the people in N. Ireland want the troops there, for the simple reason the terrorist threat remains.
Remains from who? The IRA have been on a complete military cessation since 1997, you might cite "R"IRA or CIRA activity but the British Army plays absolutely know role in the opposition to them. The British Army prescence is obsolete and is simply another bargaining chip for the Brits.IRA refusing to show proof or photos of decommissioning does not help matters.
They were prepared to put all arms beyond use at one stage, that is the only thing that matters in this regard and that chance was thrown away by people taking the entirely wrong attitute.The army are not visible on the streets and roads now,
Yes they are, they make regular patrols around Nationalist areas, especially near the border as well as their thousands of intimidatory and nuisance flights.As I said, the last dozen times I was there I did not see them at all.
Talk to someone from South Armagh.They do not bother me, and never did
They bother the vast majority of the people living in the areas where they are stationed.OK, nobody likes having the army around, but it its to uphold the law -
They have broken their own law countless times ie torture, collusion, shoot-to-kill etc.Only those opposed to the law can really object.
Like the children kept awake by helicopters, the farmers' whose fences are cut and cattle let loose? The farmers' whose sheep are born deformed from those cancerous watchtowers?0 -
billy the squid wrote:no it says throwing missiles, dot defending anything.
I know what it says billy, I'm simply giving you the reason as to why they were throwing missiles ie in defence of their community.if they shouting then turn the telly up a little. the parades commission put limitations on these groups. only a certain amount of people are allowed march through nationalist estates. but the people living there have nothing better to do than to all come out of their houses and ogle at them. can they not just get on with their lives. they corden off streets for st patricks day parades too you know, and not just in the north. they know the 12th of july is coming they can do what they have to do on the 11th. whats the big deal, its just a few old men walking down the street, how long does it take for them to pass a house.
To be honest billy, the fact you would comment so vociferously on this issue without having the slightest clue about it disturbs me. First of all the Parades Commission overturns its decisions at the behest of Unionists whenever they act up, as we saw in Ardoyne last July. Imagine this billy, white supremacists burning effigies of Catholics on bonfires and firing off weaponry, then imagine them dressed in their Sunday best wanting to march through your estate. Orange Marches display huge pendants of sectarian killers, men who have murdered people from Ardoyne and you have the gall to suggest the residents are "**** stirrers"? Furthermore, it is not "a few old men" there are masked UVF and UDA colour parties, not to mention their hangers on who throw missiles and fire insults.
Out of curiosity, would you support Neo-Nazis' marching through Jewish quarters, or the Afrikaaner Resistance Movement parading through Soweto. Racists and bigots have no right to parade through anywhere if you ask me, least of all through areas in which they murdered people because of their religion.they are not celebrating bloody sunday, they are celebrating the battle of the boyne.
You asked me what atrocities had the Parachute Regiment committed, I stated Bloody Sunday. The Orange Order did not even come into it.if you say so, but you failed to provide evidence of this occouring post good friday agreement so your words are not worth the paper they are written on to be honest.
People have appeared at press conferences and stated that the RUC/PSNI tried to recruit them as informers, as they did a 15 year old with special needs in Ardoyne last year. The issue of drug-dealers is more complex however, as those people rarely have the desire to go public about their rotten activities.there was mention of a 14 year old boy with a learning disability who the IRA waylayed with baseball bats, was he a drug dealer. again how do they know have they gathered evidence, held a trial, given the defendant right to reply?
I believe the INLA are being blamed for that attack, however I see where you are coming from. Drug-dealers are not the only people subject to punishment activity, anti-social elements in general are ie car theives, death-riders, vandals, burglars, muggers, wife-beaters etc have all been targeted. They occur in the absence of a police force and they occur at the behest of communities ridden with crime and instability. They are a desperate reaction to a desperate situation, they will however, cease to occur if a viable police force is introduced.Oglaigh na Heireann is the official name of the Irish Army which is held accountable to the government of Ireland. the Provisional IRA, Continuity IRA, Real IRA, artists formally known as the IRA, I'm the IRA and so is my wife, have no connection to Oglaigh na heireann. Like I said they are two separate entities.
I couldn't care less what the Free State Army call themselves "officially", the fact is that Óglaigh na hÉireann never went out of existence or "dispanded" (as you so inadequately put it) and continued to be in existence throughout the past century. Besides, the term being applied to the FSA is a misnomer considering "Óglaigh" means "Volunteers" and said soldiers are paid for their exploits.so you do admit then that the IRA are involved in smuggling of farm animals, deisel, and cigarettes? that constitutes as criminal activity in my books.
The IRA most definitely used to be involved in those activities, this was done to obtain funding for a war for liberation ie the same motives that drove the men of the 20s to undertake the same operations.yes and they found aliens in roswell in 1947, more conspiracy theories, lacking proper proof.
So now you are saying that collusion with Loyalists is a "conspiracy theory"? Even a brit inquiry established that it was prevalent and remains unaccounted for today. We still see the results of it on the ground with the details of Sinn Féin councillors and other Republicans finding their way to Loyalists. Your arrogance overwhelms me billy, look at the situation surrounding Pat Finucane's murder before you spout off in future.Are you blind? the police reform is happening, it is a slow process but it is happening. what do you want, the gardai to start patrolling belfast tomorrow, its not going to happen.
It isn't happening fast enough and very little progress has been made where it is really needed, reform can be introduced tomorrow by the brits.some nationalist groups held a ceasefire, some unionist groups held a ceasefire. that is what i said, what is not equal about that?
The fact Loyalists are peddling heroin and cocaine as well as murdering people because of their religion.0 -
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mycroft wrote:Any chance you can support this claim (seeing as you've responded to everyone else in this thread) Seriously any evidence.
The Branch don't normally let you bring a video recorder into an interrogation room mycroft. What sort of evidence can be provided? People are not so naieve to deny Garda harrasment and brutality, one only has to look at the activities of the "Heavy Gang" earlier on.Furthermore spare me that the Garda are too clever and SF are too small, you're the wealthest party in the country and you have your own army trained in terrorism. Branch are too incompedent and you guys have too much experience. If the Branch were intimidating SF members in free west waterford your pr team would be screaming blue bloody murder.
David Cullinane (EU candidate) mentioned it many times in the local press I believe, as well as the fact Adams often mentions the broader situation across the country. The Branch are also far from incompetent by the way.So again, any evidence to support your claim or do we assume you're just another SF liar?
I resent your calling of me a liar mycroft, it is very clever to demand proof of a situation in which the provision of photos, videos etc is impossible. All we have are pictures of bruised faces and witness statements, neither of which you are going to believe. So what's the point?0 -
Apparently Sinn Féin don't recognise the authority of An Garda Síochána.billy the squid wrote:what do you want, the gardai to start patrolling belfast tomorrow0 -
FTA69 wrote:The Branch don't normally let you bring a video recorder into an interrogation room mycroft. What sort of evidence can be provided? People are not so naieve to deny Garda harrasment and brutality, one only has to look at the activities of the "Heavy Gang" earlier on.
And photos after the fact? Man leaves police station goes to doctor. Has photos taken
Yeah pesky Gardai carrying out paramilitary style beating, and ex juidicary puinishment. Just like.......David Cullinane (EU candidate) mentioned it many times in the local press I believe, as well as the fact Adams often mentions the broader situation across the country. The Branch are also far from incompetent by the way.
Evidence? links?I resent your calling of me a liar mycroft, it is very clever to demand proof of a situation in which the provision of photos, videos etc is impossible. All we have are pictures of bruised faces and witness statements, neither of which you are going to believe. So what's the point?
Well I'm going to do it again. Liar. You are a liar. Are you telling me you couldn't get one paper or journalist interested in a story about paramilitary style beatings by the Police and harassment of representives from a political party. You're PR animals, you'd have no problem. Hell you have your own bloody paper. You're telling me you can't even find an article in An Poblacht about harassment by Branch members of SF members.
You can't provide proof, so you're a liar.0 -
Hell you have your own bloody paper. You're telling me you can't even find an article in An Poblacht about harassment by Branch members of SF members.
I was under the impression that you would not accept An Phoblacht as a source, here you are though:
http://republican-news.org/archive/1997/October02/02lime.html
http://www.prisonactivist.org/pipermail/prisonact-list/1995-December/000127.html
Here's a quote from Nicky Kelly, an IRSP member who was tortured by the Garda Heavy Gang". . . rammed my head off the locker. . . spreadeagled . . . jabbed in ribs. . slapped in face. . . legs kicked. . . fell on ground. . . spreadeagled behind door. . . door opened. . . fell on ground. . . refused to get back up. . . hit on back with chair. . . hair pulled. . . head put down toilet. . . knee in groin. . . spat in my face. . . insulted. . . told tomorrow's a long day. . . eventually you'll sign. . . back of ears hit, chair legs placed on my palms as I lay on floor. . . Detective Finn sat in chair and spat in my face. . . both ears hit simultaneously. . . beaten by blackjack on biceps, above knee . . cried. . . frightened. . . didn't know what they were going to do to me. . . very tired, sore, ears ringing, bad headache, stomach sick. . . afraid for my life. . ."
...and the subsequent doctor's report..." . . extensive bruising on outer arms from shoulder to elbow, left shoulder blade, ribs, pubic bone, left hip and thigh, left ear, wrist, above nipples, buttocks and large bruises on his right arm continuing to the back of the same shoulders measuring 7"X7". . .''
A report from Cork;Big Brother is alive and well and residing somewhere amid the Halls of Power in Dublin. Despite years of peace in the North and the genuine engagement of opposing parties and views, the old system of Special Branch harassment still continues in the South. Have these anonymous people nothing better to do? On St. Patrick's Day, our national holiday, my wife hung a Tricolour from our bedroom window to celebrate and possibly to add a bit of colour to what was rather a dull and cold day.
Upon our return from town, we discovered a Special Branch car drawn up outside the house. When the detectives spotted us, which wasn't hard as they were blocking our entrance, they pulled off. Is this the depth to which official Ireland has sunk? The flying of a tricolour is apparently perceived as a putative threat to state security. Surely the Special Branch would be better employed assisting their overworked, uniformed colleagues than `staking out' flags.
The level of petty harassment of Sinn Féin members by the Gardaí is unacceptable. Sinn Féin is a legal political party and any attempted intimidation of its members while engaged in lawful activities is contrary to basic civil rights. This harassment could also be construed as the improper use of state bodies acting as political agents on behalf of the government of the day.
This low-level intimidation has existed for years in this state. It has continued because people are afraid to complain and because those who did object found that their complaints ran into mire of officialdom, which hid the inaction behind it. If you need examples of this, look at the victims of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings. Who remembers the Garda `heavy gang' of the `70s? What about the shooting dead of John Carthy in Abbeylara?
I have no doubt that there are many good, conscientious members of the Garda Síochána, some who have made the ultimate sacrifice in the course of their duty to protect the citizens of this state. Unfortunately, there are too many of those who appear to believe that the constitution is a bastion behind which they may behave in any manner they feel fit.
Do not permit this to continue.
http://www.newrepublicanforum.ie/IRIB/human%20rights/articles/theSpecialCriminalCourt.htm
I hope these give adequate examples of the attitude of the Guards towards Republicans. From my own experience I can say that many people beaten, threatened or intimidated by the Guards are often loathe to publicise their treatment as to do so often results in worse treatment ie more frequent arrests or humiliations in front of family etc.
This however, does not make the issue any less real or important.0 -
I'm not deeming it the UK, it is the UK. They don't have to play a counter-insurgency role in Scotland or Wales because there isn't a serious terrorist threat there. Which leads back to my original point: if the terrorists pack up and go home, so will the army (to an appropriate level).FTA69 wrote:I meant that the prescence of British troops is not an innocuous, routine prescence of British troops in what you deem "the UK", they are here to play a counter-insurgency role which differs their prescence here from that of Scotland or Wales.
No, it doesn't, and no, they're not. These are facts I'm expressing here FTA69, and you keep countering them with what are, in effect, political slogans.FTA69 wrote:Like it or not oscar the British Army being heavily stationed in areas in which they are despised, as well as their frequent shooting of people whether combatant or not makes them an occupying force. They are a foriegn army in a country which is opposed to them being there.
They still retain large stockpiles of weapons. Hardly the action of a group that has permanently renounced violence, is it?FTA69 wrote:The IRA have decommisioned 3 times and have prepared for and stated their willingness to put all their arms beyond use. Hardly the actions of a group which is planning a return to war is it?
Slow negotiations are hardly a rational justification for a stockpile of weapons.FTA69 wrote:They will not however, decommision in the context of Unionist triuphalism and more importantly, no discernable guarantee that progree will continue regardless in future ie no suspensions every twon months.
It's been hugely successful, hasn't it? Not a single nationalist has died at the hands of a loyalist since, right? Wow, this "armed struggle" thing really works wonders.FTA69 wrote:It was not the IRA that created the conditions for violence, those were 1) an apartheid and discriminatory state 2) the attempted quelling of a then-peaceful campaign for change and 3) pogroms which created the biggest forced movement of people since World War 2. Peaceful demonstrations were met with beatings, baton charges, attack dogs and as we saw on Bloody Sunday, massacres. That scenario was not going to occur again in the minds of Nationalists so many then adopted a more assertive manner of struggle.
How many, outside the nationalist community on the island?FTA69 wrote:They recognise the 26 County state as a soveriegn state, no argument there, but many disagree with your assertion that the Six Counties are not part of Ireland.
They. Are. Not. A. Foreign. Army.FTA69 wrote:As I stated above, they are a foreign army stationed in areas they are not wanted in, that is occupation.0 -
oscarBravo wrote:No, it doesn't, and no, they're not. These are facts I'm expressing here FTA69, and you keep countering them with what are, in effect, political slogans.
The dictionary defines "occupation" as "the act of taking or holding possesion of a country, district or area by force". Now forgive me if I'm wrong but didn't the Brits come to this country in 1969 in force? Did they not occupy West Belfast, South Armagh and Free Derry with force in 1973? Occupations (or wars for that matter) are not limited to conflicts between soveriegn state, government troops can occupy areas of their own territory ie Soweto in South Africa or parts of Cuba during the Revolution.They still retain large stockpiles of weapons. Hardly the action of a group that has permanently renounced violence, is it?
Maintaining weapons is not an indicator of bearing an opposition to peace, when negotiations take place around such issues it is not feasable for one side to simply put all arms beyond use, it is a step by step process. Besides, the IRA were prepared to put all arms beyond use recently.Slow negotiations are hardly a rational justification for a stockpile of weapons.
No, but the lack of a guarantee that future progress will not be halted by the British Government is.It's been hugely successful, hasn't it? Not a single nationalist has died at the hands of a loyalist since, right? Wow, this "armed struggle" thing really works wonders.
You are ignoring the basic right of people to defend themselves, Nationalists have been murdered by Loyalists throughout the course of the war, that's true, but a lot more of them would have died at the hands of Loyalists if the IRA had not been in existence.How many, outside the nationalist community on the island?
If you honestly think that the majority of Irish people think of the North as some sort of a foreign country you have been spending too long on this forum a chara.They. Are. Not. A. Foreign. Army.
The vast majority of these soldiers come from Britain oscar, a foreign entity to Ireland whether North or South. The fact that the Six Counties is within the UK has no bearing on whether the British army are classed as foreign or not. By your logic the Black and Tans were not foreign because they were simply based in UK territory, the Russians were also not foreign to the people of Hungary whom they butchered etc etc etc. State borders are not the only decisive factor in whether something is "foreign" or not.0 -
Does SF/IRA actually want a conclusion to the peace process?
With Mitchel McLoughlin deniel the IRA’s cold-blooded murder of Jean McConville was a crime - shows very little has changed in the SF mind set?
I really don't know if SF/IRA want a conclusion to the peace process.
But I feel that decision time is coming for them.
I hope that they will follow soley the democratic route - but it is their choice.0 -
FTA69 wrote:Imagine this billy, white supremacists burning effigies of Catholics on bonfires and firing off weaponry, then imagine them dressed in their Sunday best wanting to march through your estate. Orange Marches display huge pendants of sectarian killers, men who have murdered people from Ardoyne and you have the gall to suggest the residents are "**** stirrers"?
white supremisists? are the catholics in the north also white? what are you on about.
as for throwing projectiles through window, the laswt person to throw a projectile received ten months in Limerick prison, the individual was dealt with without me having to throw a single thing at them. so there are other ways for residents of the Ardoyne to deal with these parades. the orange order are only doing it because they know they will get a reaction, so why don't the residents take the moral high ground and ignore them. its only a few men walking down the street. how did they deal with orange marches before the IRA and Sinn fein came along.Furthermore, it is not "a few old men" there are masked UVF and UDA colour parties, not to mention their hangers on who throw missiles and fire insults.
big claims with no links to evidence.Out of curiosity, would you support Neo-Nazis' marching through Jewish quarters, or the Afrikaaner Resistance Movement parading through Soweto. Racists and bigots have no right to parade through anywhere if you ask me, least of all through areas in which they murdered people because of their religion.
Your using hypothesis to try to justify wanten violence where it is not necessary. like I said, if the people of the ardoyne ignored these people there would not be the kind of trouble that occoured in july of last year.
when have the afrikaner movement marched through soweto, enlighten me.
People have appeared at press conferences and stated that the RUC/PSNI tried to recruit them as informers, as they did a 15 year old with special needs in Ardoyne last year. The issue of drug-dealers is more complex however, as those people rarely have the desire to go public about their rotten activities.
what people, when did they appear, please be more specific.I believe the INLA are being blamed for that attack, however I see where you are coming from. Drug-dealers are not the only people subject to punishment activity, anti-social elements in general are ie car theives, death-riders, vandals, burglars, muggers, wife-beaters etc have all been targeted. They occur in the absence of a police force and they occur at the behest of communities ridden with crime and instability. They are a desperate reaction to a desperate situation, they will however, cease to occur if a viable police force is introduced.
This is not the IRAs job to attend to these matters, it is the job of the police. if someone up there knows who is committing a crime then they should report it to the police. the type of justice the provos meat out is more savagery and bloodlust rather than a community service. and is unjustifyable.I couldn't care less what the Free State Army call themselves
is it any wonder no one really takes the republican movement too seriously when they cannot even call us the republic of ireland, preferring to call us the "free state" havent you learned anything from your experience of these threads. the free state ceased to exist in 1949.0 -
billy the squid wrote:white supremisists? are the catholics in the north also white? what are you on about.
The UDA, UVF and Red Hand Commando sit on the Orange Order Parades Committee which decides marching and Orange strategy for the year. These organisations have links with 1) neo-Nazis ie Combat 18 and the BNP and 2) engage in pogroms against the Portugese, Pakistani, Indian and Chinese communities in the areas under their control.its only a few men walking down the street.
No it isn't billy and I'm getting pretty sick of pointing this out to you, the marches feature masked paramilitary colour parties displaying pendants of Loyalist killers who actually murdered people from the said area. Not to mention the hundreds of hangers-on who parade through estates drunk and throwing missiles.how did they deal with orange marches before the IRA and Sinn fein came along.
They cowered and acquiesced to those who forced a sectarian supremacist ideology down their throat. A contributing factor to the Battle of the Bogside was the Apprentice Boy parade throwing penny coins at Nationalists to remind them of their poverty and subservience. Since 1969 people were not prepared to accept such behaviour and that is why there was such an outpour of anger in Ardoyne last July.big claims with no links to evidence.
http://republican-news.org/archive/2000/June29/29spri.html
http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2004/jul21_trojan_horse__BFeeney.php
http://www.sdlp.ie/prmorganorangeorder.shtm
Here's a few quick links billy.Your using hypothesis to try to justify wanten violence where it is not necessary. like I said, if the people of the ardoyne ignored these people there would not be the kind of trouble that occoured in july of last year.
They shouldn't have to ignore them as they shouldn't have been there in the first place. When Loyalist paramilitaries, the Parachute regiment and armed RUC/PSNI storm an area, beat people, cordon off people against their will there will be a reaction. Violent oppression breeds violent resistance and the people of Ardoyne were perfectly justifed in standing up to those who would brutalise them in their own estate.when have the afrikaner movement marched through soweto, enlighten me.
I never said they did do it, I asked you how would you feel if they wanted to do it. It is a similar scenario to the subject of Orange marches.what people, when did they appear, please be more specific.
http://www.statewatch.org/news/2003/may/02ni.htm
The list is ongoing billy, the above is but a typical example.This is not the IRAs job to attend to these matters, it is the job of the police.
If the police did their job then responsibility would not fall upon Republicans. These actions are supported for a reason billy, analyse that situation and draw your own conclusions as to why these communities are in favour of punishment activity.is it any wonder no one really takes the republican movement too seriously when they cannot even call us the republic of ireland, preferring to call us the "free state" havent you learned anything from your experience of these threads. the free state ceased to exist in 1949.
The fact is billy we have much support in the 26 counties, support which is growing rapidly. Maybe among your circle there is little support for Sinn Féin but among the establishment there is serious concern.
As for my experience on this board, it has strengthened my beliefs more than anything.0 -
If by "Brits" you mean the British Army, then no, they didn't. There was a movement of troops from one part of the United Kingdom to another.FTA69 wrote:The dictionary defines "occupation" as "the act of taking or holding possesion of a country, district or area by force". Now forgive me if I'm wrong but didn't the Brits come to this country in 1969 in force?
By that argument, the Curragh is occupied by the Irish Army.FTA69 wrote:Did they not occupy West Belfast, South Armagh and Free Derry with force in 1973? Occupations (or wars for that matter) are not limited to conflicts between soveriegn state, government troops can occupy areas of their own territory ie Soweto in South Africa or parts of Cuba during the Revolution.
Look at the examples you've quoted to support your argument: all examples of counter-insurgency. If you believe a government isn't entitled to station troops in its own territory to combat sedition, you've an even funnier worldview than I previously suspected.
If I rounded up a few of the neighbours and started blowing up carbombs in support of "Free North Mayo" do you think the government should stay out of it and mind their own business?
Prove it.FTA69 wrote:You are ignoring the basic right of people to defend themselves, Nationalists have been murdered by Loyalists throughout the course of the war, that's true, but a lot more of them would have died at the hands of Loyalists if the IRA had not been in existence.
(a) I didn't say that; (b) you didn't come remotely close to answering the question.FTA69 wrote:If you honestly think that the majority of Irish people think of the North as some sort of a foreign country you have been spending too long on this forum a chara.
Tell you what: why don't you go and find an authoritative source - let's say the UN, or someone of that ilk - that backs up your assertion that Northern Ireland is occupied by a foreign power. Then come back to me.FTA69 wrote:The vast majority of these soldiers come from Britain oscar, a foreign entity to Ireland whether North or South. The fact that the Six Counties is within the UK has no bearing on whether the British army are classed as foreign or not.
Precisely. That doesn't mean I think it was a good idea to put them there, mind you.FTA69 wrote:By your logic the Black and Tans were not foreign because they were simply based in UK territory
Hungary was never part of Russia, and comparing the UK to 1940s-era USSR is just a little disingenuous.FTA69 wrote:the Russians were also not foreign to the people of Hungary whom they butchered etc etc
They pretty much are when deciding where armed forces have jurisdiction.FTA69 wrote:State borders are not the only decisive factor in whether something is "foreign" or not.0 -
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Isn't there a law agains incitement to hatred? Have any cases been brought against anyone who has displayed such pendants?FTA69 wrote:No it isn't billy and I'm getting pretty sick of pointing this out to you, the marches feature masked paramilitary colour parties displaying pendants of Loyalist killers who actually murdered people from the said area.
If Republicans recognised the authority of the police, they might be able to do their job. It's the most blatant hypocrisy yet to criticise a police force for not doing it's job when you've already stated clearly here that you don't consider them a legitimate authority.FTA69 wrote:If the police did their job then responsibility would not fall upon Republicans.
Being in favour of it doesn't make it right. Communities in parts of the US were (and very possibly still are) in favour of lynchings. Should they be allowed to carry them out?FTA69 wrote:These actions are supported for a reason billy, analyse that situation and draw your own conclusions as to why these communities are in favour of punishment activity.0 -
Okay FTA A couple of things, ask Oscar Bravo here, I'm not in the cheerleading section for the Garda, I'm asking for proof of a specific campaign of harassment againist SF members that you alledge is still on going. If you think that I'm some sort of Garda apologist, check the politics archive.
so lets break down your links shall we?
http://republican-news.org/archive/1997/October02/02lime.html
Is moral outrage at the behaviour of limerick garda. What you fail to mention is.Watch launched a report into allegations of ill-treatment by the Garda Síochána of people arrested following the killing of Garda Jerry McCabe in Limerick in June 1996. At the time independent TD Tony Gregory attempted to raise the beatings in the Leinster House security committee, but was ruled out of order by the Fine Gael chairperson, Charlie Flanagan TD. In October 1996 Amnesty International expressed concern about the allegations of ill-treatment in Limerick and called for a full and independent inquiry into the allegations with the findings made public.
Which is mitgated in my mind by thisEmphasising their awarenesss of the ``widespread sense of outrage and shock over the brutal murder of Garda McCabe and the wounding of his colleague,'' they emphasised that it was at such times of high emotion that the rules and safeguards for the protection of suspects should be observed.
And you know what call me nuts but when a Garda is murdered my sympathys and empathy is going to be with his colleagues and not with the apologists for the murderers.
You're the apogolists for a terrorist organisation which murdered a police officer in the line of duty while you were supposed to be on cease fire.
Couple of you got roughed up in the process (a process that I'm sure SF members co-operated fully with) my sympathys are still going to be with McCabe's co workers and family. And their pain and frustration
Anyway thats one instance from 9 years ago, during extra ordinary circumstances. Doesn't count. You want to run with a party with links to paramilitaries you'll have to take the good and the bad?
Reading through the rest of the article you'll notice that not one case mentioned in the article is dated past 1996. We're talking about systematic current abuse that you are alledging. Can provide anything from the last oh, I dunno, year or so? Not from nearly 10 years ago?
Next we have;
http://www.newrepublicanforum.ie/IRIB/human20rights/articles/theSpecialCriminalCourt.htm
Which is a rant about the unjustice of the special criminal court. A court which was set up because well your fore fathers were y'know, intimidating jurors and trials were collasping. You want to complain about the injustices of the Irish legal system while working with people who don't acknowledge the principles and enforcement of that system. This is your cake, would you like to eat said cake? In any case it does not refer to anything past a 2000 amnesty report condemning the report.
Tell me, do the IRA give amnesty access to their courts? Are people accused of being informers and tried before a kangroo IRA court before getting a bullet in the back of the head and dumped in an unmarked grave, feeling "intimidated"? (to use some of the damning language of your link) How can you decry the Irish judicary system and the extordinary measures they've had to draw up because of jury intimidation by the IRA.
Anyway that link shows no evidence of a current sustained campaign againist Sinn Fein. It's worthless to your argument, and doesn't support it one bit.
http://www.prisonactivist.org/pipermail/prisonact-list/1995-December/000127.html
Is a report outlinely the behaviour of the Irish police service. Are the police service corrupt, some yes. Do we need an independent authority and cameras interrogation cells (even the GSC say we do) hell yes. Does this link show or say anything about specific instances of the Gardai intimidating Sinn Fein members, that your alledging, and holding this article as prove, no it does not.
As for the two unsopported links. One, Fintan Lane a cork man got a call from the branch the day the Iraq war started when he rose the Iraq flag. So obviously cork branch members have a flag fetish.
But seriously. Thats it? Seriously? You can't prove that they were branch and even if you could, the worst thing that they did was block a bloody driveway. Woopdefu*kingdo.
As for Nicky Kelly's beating. When did it occur? And would it happen to be this Nicky Kelly Cause if it is. Hey watch it. Call him what he is; a IRA hero. Train robber and convict.
Also you'll notice the events took place in the late 70s and early 80s. How is that relevant today?
So to summerise, you've presented as evidence that there is a systematic evidence of a sustained current campaign of haressment, by agents of this state, againist members of Sinn Fein;
And this evidence is;
1. Blocked driveway (temporarly)
2. One report of a beating not dated, of a man, I assume is a former IRA member.
3. A rant about the special criminal court. Ironic because that the court had to be created because of IRA jury intimidation, and even more ironic because the IRA regularly murdered people after a quick trial in there private courts.
4. A report that in 96 in the wake the McCabe killing. Some Gardai, in the limerick area, may have roughed up a couple of SFers (who were undoubtably commiting their civic duty and co-operating fully with the investigation), and of course the fact that they were upset because their friend had been murdered by a paramilitary organisation just isn't good enough.
5. A report that condemns the Irish gardai making specific allegations about Gardai misconduct, but in it nowhere shows any evidence that the Gardai are engaged in a systematic campaign againist sinn fein.
Okay?
I mean christ you couldn't even find anything FROM THIS MILLENIUM!!!
You.
Are.
A.
Liar.
No, wait, thats unfair. You're a fu*king liar.0 -
FTA69 wrote:The UDA, UVF and Red Hand Commando sit on the Orange Order Parades Committee which decides marching and Orange strategy for the year. These organisations have links with 1) neo-Nazis ie Combat 18 and the BNP and 2) engage in pogroms against the Portugese, Pakistani, Indian and Chinese communities in the areas under their control.
Oscar Bravo replied to this before i got around to reading it, but he does have a point. there are laws against incitement to commit violence. if members of any political party has information regarding racial hatred then they should contact the police. rather than throw missiles at people who may or may not be involved in said activity.
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No it isn't billy and I'm getting pretty sick of pointing this out to you, the marches feature masked paramilitary colour parties displaying pendants of Loyalist killers who actually murdered people from the said area. Not to mention the hundreds of hangers-on who parade through estates drunk and throwing missiles.
have you considered the fact that members of loyalist terrorist groups are free to join and leave orange parades without resistance due to intimidation of those who want to celebrate their own cultural identity. groups that hijack symbols of the United Kingdom in the same way the IRA and their cohorts hijack symbols of Irish culture.
I do agree that there are those in the unionist, and indeed nationalist community who are racist, every culture has racism in it, but that does not justify people throwing missiles at each other.
[quoteSince 1969 people were not prepared to accept such behaviour and that is why there was such an outpour of anger in Ardoyne last July.[/quote]
So whats the plan, seek retribution for it for another 36 years. yeah that is going to make the life of the catholic community improve really quickly.
[I never said they did do it, I asked you how would you feel if they wanted to do it. It is a similar scenario to the subject of Orange marches.http://www.statewatch.org/news/2003/may/02ni.htm
The list is ongoing billy, the above is but a typical example.
so you support your claims with unsubstansiated claims by somebody elseFor further information contact :
Troops Out Movement
Campaigning for British Withdrawal from Ireland
PO Box 1032 Birmingham B12 8BZ Tel / Fax 0121 643 7542If the police did their job then responsibility would not fall upon Republicans. These actions are supported for a reason billy, analyse that situation and draw your own conclusions as to why these communities are in favour of punishment activity.
so what your saying is, vigelantes bashing teenagers is good, uniformed police accountable to higher authority bad, right.
why can you not accept that what the IRA call "community policing" is wrong on every level.The fact is billy we have much support in the 26 counties, support which is growing rapidly. Maybe among your circle there is little support for Sinn Féin but among the establishment there is serious concern
the only way sinn fein will be able to hold onto gains they have made in THE REPUBLIC is they can prove without a doubt that they and the IRA are keeping to their word and not getting involved in criminal activity. so the question remains. do the sinn fein party and the IRA want a peacfe or do they want to keep it going as it is as long as the money from smuggled cigarettes and bank robberies keep coming in.As for my experience on this board, it has strengthened my beliefs more than anything.
if you were to change your views just to placate the users of this site then i would be the first to call you spineless. i will give you credit for that at least..but I would not want you to change your views to placate me, i would want you to change your views because your politics is outdated and irrelavent in this day and age and I still believe that the IRA are up to no good in their current state.0 -
oscarBravo wrote:If by "Brits" you mean the British Army, then no, they didn't. There was a movement of troops from one part of the United Kingdom to another.
Coming to a country, locking down whole areas before ripping them apart in house-to-house searches seems fairly "forceful" to me oscar, or maybe I'm just overly sensitive.By that argument, the Curragh is occupied by the Irish Army.
No it isn't because the people of the Curragh are not hostile to that army because they do not riddle any demonstrations in the Curragh, or suppress the people of the Curragh. They are not there in "force", it is a flawed analogy.Look at the examples you've quoted to support your argument: all examples of counter-insurgency. If you believe a government isn't entitled to station troops in its own territory to combat sedition, you've an even funnier worldview than I previously suspected.
In many cases a government stationing troops in its own territory is unjust oscar, look at South Africa, a war between "the government" and a "seditious" group. Just because the Boers had "de law" on their side does not mean they are right.If I rounded up a few of the neighbours and started blowing up carbombs in support of "Free North Mayo" do you think the government should stay out of it and mind their own business?
No because Mayo is an integral part of Ireland and always has been, a bit like the Six Counties come to think of it.(a) I didn't say that; (b) you didn't come remotely close to answering the question. Tell you what: why don't you go and find an authoritative source - let's say the UN, or someone of that ilk - that backs up your assertion that Northern Ireland is occupied by a foreign power.
Ireland's status as part of the UK was recognised by the world over in 1918 as well, were we not occupied by a foreign power then?That doesn't mean I think it was a good idea to put them there, mind you. Hungary was never part of Russia, and comparing the UK to 1940s-era USSR is just a little disingenuous.
True, Hungary never was a part of Russia, and Ireland was never part of Britain. What the two countries have in common though, is that they were both national identities who came under the remit of an imperialist power. I believe in the basic right of national self-determination myself, and law or no law a larger country has no right to dominate a smaller one.0 -
billy the squid wrote:Oscar Bravo replied to this before i got around to reading it, but he does have a point. there are laws against incitement to commit violence. if members of any political party has information regarding racial hatred then they should contact the police. rather than throw missiles at people who may or may not be involved in said activity.
That law is a joke, throughout the whole conflict only one person ever fell foul of it. George Seawright claimed all Catholics and their priests should be burned at the stake, he got off with a fine. The police are also overtly Unionist and their sympathies are well known, they facilitate the said people carrying said pendents.have you considered the fact that members of loyalist terrorist groups are free to join and leave orange parades without resistance due to intimidation of those who want to celebrate their own cultural identity. groups that hijack symbols of the United Kingdom in the same way the IRA and their cohorts hijack symbols of Irish culture.
Unionist parties such as the UUP or the DUP have never even condemned the prescence of these groups on the committee, individual members occasionally have but the parties as a whole have not. In fact these parties used the likes of the LVF and UVF as political tools during the Drumcree riots in 1996. It was hoped a massive upsuge of violence would result in the parade being allowed through the Garvaghy Road.I do agree that there are those in the unionist, and indeed nationalist community who are racist, every culture has racism in it, but that does not justify people throwing missiles at each other.
There are indeed racists on all sides, but there are no Nationalist white supremacists seeking to march down areas commemorating sectarian murderers.So whats the plan, seek retribution for it for another 36 years. yeah that is going to make the life of the catholic community improve really quickly.
This isn;t a grievance based in the past, but a situation that affects people in the here and now, today. Orange intimidation is ongoing, Republicans seek meaningful dialogue every year and every year it is rejected by intransigent Unionists.so you support your claims with unsubstansiated claims by somebody else
Short of a hidden video camera (rare enough to come by) secreted in a persons lapel on the exact time they get approached by the police, decisive proof is hard to come by. What we do have however, are scores of personal testiments.so what your saying is, vigelantes bashing teenagers is good, uniformed police accountable to higher authority bad, right.
No, I want accountable policing. What I don't want is a sectarian, unreformed force that colludes with Loyalists, and neither does anyone else. Policing reform can be implemented by the British government only and when it is then the above activities can stop. Meanwhile communities are not going to tolerate drug dealers and death riders rotting areas unababted.why can you not accept that what the IRA call "community policing" is wrong on every level.
Because it is a necessary evil at present.the only way sinn fein will be able to hold onto gains they have made in THE REPUBLIC is they can prove without a doubt that they and the IRA are keeping to their word and not getting involved in criminal activity. so the question remains. do the sinn fein party and the IRA want a peacfe or do they want to keep it going as it is as long as the money from smuggled cigarettes and bank robberies keep coming in.
Maybe you should "prove without a doubt" that Sinn Féin are making money from these activities before you set conditions. Sinn Féin has grown in every Irish election since 1986, it even grew throughout the collapse of the Cessation in the mid 90s. The lies and propagandist nonsense being spewed by Mad Mullah McDowell and the gutter press will not deter us one bit.0 -
In many cases a government stationing troops in its own territory is unjust oscar, look at South Africa, a war between "the government" and a "seditious" group. Just because the Boers had "de law" on their side does not mean they are right.
at least the people of south africa were able to put the past behind them, comparing northern ireland to south africa is a little lame given that both sides, mainly in the groups that have more to gain by the conflict continuing choose not to put the past behind them like the people of south africa did.This isn;t a grievance based in the past, but a situation that affects people in the here and now, today. Orange intimidation is ongoing, Republicans seek meaningful dialogue every year and every year it is rejected by intransigent Unionists.
then quote me something from the last twelve months from an independent source that gives credance to your claims that the police are kicking the **** out of catholics in the north. as mycroft said(and it was something i only noticed when it was mentioned) the stories you posted links to were fairly old.0 -
mycroft wrote:I'm asking for proof of a specific campaign of harassment againist SF members that you alledge is still on going.
First of all let me point out that I never said there was a "concerted campaign", I am not making claims of a pogrom but I am stating there was a progression of incidents which involved beatings and surveillance.
Secondly, speaking from a Waterford perspective I outlined some of the behaviour that is prevalent in my locality. As I pointed out, decisive proof regarding this is hard to come by and the reason there has not been publicity over it is because Republicans never reported it in the first place. Someone who has small children and has just had his house trashed and has been given a hiding is not about to draw further attention to himself as those who have done in the past have recieved even worse persecution.
I provided the links above to give examples of past and current intimidation and mistreatment, mainly because I thought you were one of "the Guards are godlike" types, which you aren't.You.
Are.
A.
Liar.
No, wait, thats unfair. You're a fu*king liar.
No I am not, just because one doesn't have Rodney King-style footage does not make him a liar.0 -
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/050111/w0111108.html
the first paragraph might make your blood go cold FTA
but the paragraph that interested me was :Sinn Fein has insisted the IRA wasn't involved in the raid, which netted a hostage-taking gang the equivalent of $61 million Cdn. But the British, Irish and U.S. governments, as well as every other political party in both parts of Ireland, accepted the verdict.
so everyone is wrong except sinn fein. well shock horror0 -
FTA69 wrote:First of all let me point out that I never said there was a "concerted campaign", I am not making claims of a pogrom but I am stating there was a progression of incidents which involved beatings and surveillance.
Lets see what you said shall we;
You said;
firstFTA69 wrote:I also resent your allegations that I am an "armchair" Republican, I work actively, and have suffered for, my beliefs. .
then;FTA69 wrote:and believe it or not the Branch are up to the same behaviour here as they always were.
and then;FTA69 wrote:The same counter-insurgent tactics they always used, beatings, arrests, harassment, threats, intimidation, harassment of relatives and the bugging of phones. Same old, same old....
So you've claimed that there is a systematic campaign by the Gardai in Free West Waterford, againist, legitmate, law abiding, members of SF
When asked to present proof of this allegations you presented a tissue of irrelevant outdated nonsense. Now we have;Secondly, speaking from a Waterford perspective I outlined some of the behaviour that is prevalent in my locality.
No you haven't you've not given a single specific example of the campaign you've mentioned. A campaign which you previously claimed to be a victim of
you've completely failed to demostrate in any way shape or form that such a campaign exists.As I pointed out, decisive proof regarding this is hard to come by and the reason there has not been publicity over it is because Republicans never reported it in the first place.
You've posted a race of links that show republicans do infact make claims and demands about intimidation.
You've failed to provide one single link from one single sinn fein member condemning police behaviour, not the individual, but how about their elected representive. Are you trying to tell me you couldn't find a single statement by a single SF CC,or TD condemning such a campaign. Anything????
Are you trying to tell me that not one single Sinn Fein TD, County Councillor, or MEP would not leap at the chance to condemn intimidation of one of their constituents, one of their party members, on the recieving end of some intimidation by paid members of the state possibly working on orders from high up.
No every repubilcan, to a man, shuts their lips.Someone who has small children and has just had his house trashed and has been given a hiding is not about to draw further attention to himself as those who have done in the past have recieved even worse persecution.
Is this an actual example of something that actually happened or are you just making more sh*t up?I provided the links above to give examples of past and current intimidation and mistreatment, mainly because I thought you were one of "the Guards are godlike" types, which you aren't.
You've no idea, mo caraNo I am not, just because one doesn't have Rodney King-style footage does not make him a liar.
No you've claimed that there is a systematic campaign of intimidation of ongoing haressment by members of the police force, againist members of a legimate political party. A campaign that you yourself have been victimised. When asked to present a single shred of co-oberating evidence, you present a host of outdated and irrelevant links, and then announce, that miraclously, every single soldarity Sinn Fein member who's been victimised doesn't want come forward and is quietly suffering in silence, depsite the fact, that massive political capital could be gained from highlighting this injustice, and that the campaign is illegal. And all this at a time when Sinn Fein political stock is rising (until the last few weeks) and credibitilty of the Gardai is in tatters.
No. I'm pretty sure you're a liar. Actually I'm postive. LIAR.0 -
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It's forceful alright. The question is whether it constitutes an occupation.FTA69 wrote:Coming to a country, locking down whole areas before ripping them apart in house-to-house searches seems fairly "forceful" to me oscar, or maybe I'm just overly sensitive.
So, are Unionist areas of Northern Ireland occupied by the British Army?FTA69 wrote:No it isn't because the people of the Curragh are not hostile to that army because they do not riddle any demonstrations in the Curragh, or suppress the people of the Curragh. They are not there in "force", it is a flawed analogy.
Nope. But does it make it an occupation? Is "Free West Waterford" occupied by "Free State" forces?FTA69 wrote:In many cases a government stationing troops in its own territory is unjust oscar, look at South Africa, a war between "the government" and a "seditious" group. Just because the Boers had "de law" on their side does not mean they are right.
...and Alaska is an integral part of Canada, is it? What makes this island, uniquely in the world, politically indivisible?FTA69 wrote:No because Mayo is an integral part of Ireland and always has been, a bit like the Six Counties come to think of it.
No, we were part of the United Kingdom then.FTA69 wrote:Ireland's status as part of the UK was recognised by the world over in 1918 as well, were we not occupied by a foreign power then?
You believe in national self-determination when it suits you. If the majority in Northern Ireland wanted it to be an independent country, would you acknowledge their right to self-determination?FTA69 wrote:True, Hungary never was a part of Russia, and Ireland was never part of Britain. What the two countries have in common though, is that they were both national identities who came under the remit of an imperialist power. I believe in the basic right of national self-determination myself, and law or no law a larger country has no right to dominate a smaller one.
How often are cases brought? They shouldn't be hard to prove.FTA69 wrote:That law is a joke, throughout the whole conflict only one person ever fell foul of it.
All of them? There's not one police officer in the PSNI that would be sympathetic to the nationalist cause?FTA69 wrote:The police are also overtly Unionist and their sympathies are well known
Isn't there a rather effective police ombudsman to whom complaints about such behaviour could be made?FTA69 wrote:they facilitate the said people carrying said pendents.
And by contrast, Sinn Féin are on record as condemning atrocities by Republicans... how often? SF are in something of a glass house when it comes to throwing "condemnation" rocks.FTA69 wrote:Unionist parties such as the UUP or the DUP have never even condemned the prescence of these groups on the committee, individual members occasionally have but the parties as a whole have not.
You were asked the question before (and didn't answer) - how many PSNI police officers must be fired to satisfy Sinn Féin? All of them? What are your criteria for a satisfactory police force? If SF want police reform, why are they not represented on the Policing Board?FTA69 wrote:No, I want accountable policing. What I don't want is a sectarian, unreformed force that colludes with Loyalists, and neither does anyone else. Policing reform can be implemented by the British government only and when it is then the above activities can stop.
It's interesting to hear Northern policing described as "unaccountable" when it's usually held up as a model for how accountability should be set up in the Republic.
I suppose acknowledging that it's evil is a start.FTA69 wrote:Because ["community policing"] is a necessary evil at present.
He also claimed to have been arrested for membership of Sinn Féin. I called him out on this, but he never responded.mycroft wrote:No you've claimed that there is a systematic campaign of intimidation of ongoing haressment by members of the police force, againist members of a legimate political party. A campaign that you yourself have been victimised.0
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