Does SF/IRA actually want a conclusion to the peace process?

irish1

irish1 wrote:

The IRA are an illegal organisation who act on their own authority. I do not support them and you know that, I have said it here many times.

The question I asked was do you believe they are an army?
Given what you said above why do your shops sell their parafanalia then?
I assume it has the approval of the leadership?
Are you out of step with the leadership on that?

Villain

Earthman wrote:

The question I asked was do you believe they are an army?
Given what you said above why do your shops sell their parafanalia then?
I assume it has the approval of the leadership?
Are you out of step with the leadership on that?

No I do not believe they are an army, I don't have any shops!

SF shops sell such articles to raise money, maybe I am out of step.

But I'm also quite drunk now!!!

true

irish1 wrote:

SF shops sell such articles to raise money, maybe I am out of step.

Yes, they sell such articles ( pro-IRA t-shirts etc ) to raise money. However, they would not sell t-shirts with such slogans as they do on their web site unless there was an affinity between the two movements ? Affinity is possibly not the right word - bond, relationship, respect, tie-up, link - call it what you want.

In a democracy, I would defend their right to sell whatever t-shirts they want, but it is always amusing when Sinn Fein get hot under the collar when people say " Sinn Fein IRA " or such like.

Villain

true wrote:

Yes, they sell such articles ( pro-IRA t-shirts etc ) to raise money. However, they would not sell t-shirts with such slogans as they do on their web site unless there was an affinity between the two movements ? Affinity is possibly not the right word - bond, relationship, respect, tie-up, link - call it what you want.

In a democracy, I would defend their right to sell whatever t-shirts they want, but it is always amusing when Sinn Fein get hot under the collar when people say " Sinn Fein IRA " or such like.

Yes because saying Sinn Fein/IRA and saying Sinn Fein have links to the IRA is very different. They are two different organisations despite the rubbish that the Sunday Independent writes week after week, I mean they seem to reckon they know the people on the IRA's army council even do the Leader of this state stated in the Dail this week he didn't know who was on it, this is the same man that says has information that shows the IRA carried out the Bank robbery.

I seriously think the Independent should try and show some proof, because I'm sure most people are fed up reading the same crap every sunday, it's like reading Cork's post! (Joke).

Cork

irish1 wrote:

I seriously think the Independent should try and show some proof, because I'm sure most people are fed up reading the same crap every sunday, it's like reading Cork's post! (Joke).

SF selling IRA merchandise is very telling of the SF atitude to IRA vilolence.

What proof does the IRA look for when they carry out punishent beatings?

But Irish1, do you maintain SF and IRA leadership have always been seperate?

Because I have many links that say otherwise (& they are not all from Independant newspapers)

Just as an aside - were there not closed sessions at SF annual conferences where the media etc were excluded?

What exactly were these about?

Villain

Cork wrote:

SF selling IRA merchandise is very telling of the SF atitude to IRA vilolence.

What proof does the IRA look for when they carry out punishent beatings?

But Irish1, do you maintain SF and IRA leadership have always been seperate?

Because I have many links that say otherwise (& they are not all from Independant newspapers)

Just as an aside - were there not closed sessions at SF annual conferences where the media etc were excluded?

What exactly were these about?

Cork, you well know that certain members of the Sinn Fein leadership were previously invloved with the IRA, but they have committed themselves to peace, and if you have any links that PROVE Adams and McGuinness are currently on the IRA army council please do post them up. Oh and you might want to send the link to your friend Bertie because he doesn't know who's on the army council. But hey he's only the leader of this states Government what would he know, I mean the Sunday Indo couldn't be wrong could they? :eek:

bonkey

irish1 wrote:

Cork, you well know that certain members of the Sinn Fein leadership were previously invloved with the IRA, but they have committed themselves to peace,

Surely the issue is with the party and/or its overall policy and actions, as opposed to the stated stances of individuals within that party?

And perhaps amongst that, the actions of the party taken as a whole are the most significant?

I accept that there is a political reality which would probably make it ultimately counter-productive to Sinn Fein to break ties with the IRA, and another which says that a total comittment to peace will be a slow process which could conceivably take generations....but that in no way means that there shouldn't be criticism of the current shortfallings.

Saying that the problem is partly fixed, and not all black and white doesn't mean that there we should close our eyes to any remaining unacceptable aspects, nor to cease pressuring for them to be done away with.

Conversely, I will say that stone-walling does not strike me as the way to achieve this. I do not agree with the mindset which says that the right way forward is to refuse to have any dealings until all our demands are met. Such implacability and refusal to compromise - on both sides - is what strikes me as delaying a solution being reached, and not what is lacking in sufficient quantity by either side.

jc




and if you have any links that PROVE Adams and McGuinness are currently on the IRA army council please do post them up. Oh and you might want to send the link to your friend Bertie because he doesn't know who's on the army council. But hey he's only the leader of this states Government what would he know, I mean the Sunday Indo couldn't be wrong could they? :eek:[/QUOTE]

true

Someone wrote "and if you have any links that PROVE Adams and McGuinness are currently on the IRA army council please do post them up. Oh and you might want to send the link to your friend Bertie because he doesn't know who's on the army council. But hey he's only the leader of this states Government what would he know, "

I reakon Bertie knows damn well who is on the IRA "army council " all right, but he can not say it at this point in time for intelligence and / or political reasons. Same as "who done the Northern bank job"..... I believe the Gardai and PSNI know what organisation did it, but to reveal the source of this info ( or method / meand by which the info was obtained ) now would not be prudent.

Villain

true wrote:

Someone wrote "and if you have any links that PROVE Adams and McGuinness are currently on the IRA army council please do post them up. Oh and you might want to send the link to your friend Bertie because he doesn't know who's on the army council. But hey he's only the leader of this states Government what would he know, "

I reakon Bertie knows damn well who is on the IRA "army council " all right, but he can not say it at this point in time for intelligence and / or political reasons. Same as "who done the Northern bank job"..... I believe the Gardai and PSNI know what organisation did it, but to reveal the source of this info ( or method / meand by which the info was obtained ) now would not be prudent.

But Ms Harney was able to say Martin Ferris was on it, Bertie hasn't said who's on it because he knows it would make McDowell and Harney look like fools, none of the SF leadership are on the council. It just suits people arguments to try and make out they are, cheap political point scoring and that.

oscarBravo

irish1 wrote:

Bertie hasn't said who's on it because he knows it would make McDowell and Harney look like fools

How do you know this is his reason?

irish1 wrote:

none of the SF leadership are on the council.

How do you know?

Villain

oscarBravo wrote:

How do you know this is his reason?

Its my opinion

oscarBravo wrote:

How do you know?

Because I have never seen any evidence to prove it, and the Leader of the Party I support has stated he is not on the army council. I work on facts not fiction!

irish1

irish1 wrote:

Its my opinion

It's not fact then.

Because I have never seen any evidence to prove it, and the Leader of the Party I support has stated he is not on the army council. I work on facts not fiction!

And you believe him and should be respected for that , but that doesnt mitigate the fact that a lot of people dont.

Wikipedia have as part of his bio that he repeatedly denied ever being an IRA member untill papers released under the 30 year rule indicated that he was in it in the early 70's so he had to *cough* own up...
So given that would you blame people for not having faith in his denials of membership of its army council as he has a record of hiding these things?

true

irish1 wrote:

But Ms Harney was able to say Martin Ferris was on it, Bertie hasn't said who's on it because he knows it would make McDowell and Harney look like fools, none of the SF leadership are on the council.

If Martin Ferris WAS on it as you say Ms. Harney stated , who Bertie says IS on it would make no difference to McDowell and Harney.

With all due respect, there is a difference between past and present, Irish 1.

Incidentally, I would believe Ms. Harney or McDowell or Bertie as regards the members of IRA army council. I am sure they are well known to the relevant authorities, in this day and age.

Villain

true wrote:

If Martin Ferris WAS on it as you say Ms. Harney stated , who Bertie says IS on it would make no difference to McDowell and Harney.

With all due respect, there is a difference between past and present, Irish 1.

Incidentally, I would believe Ms. Harney or McDowell or Bertie as regards the members of IRA army council. I am sure they are well known to the relevant authorities, in this day and age.

Sorry that was a typo on my behalf, Ms Harney said Martin Ferris is on the army counil, thats why Enda Kenny raised the question in the Dail that I mentioned previously.

You see the problem is who do you believe, Mr McDowell said in the past that he knew who was on it but wouldn't say, now Ms Harney says she knows Martin Ferris is on it, yet when questioned in the Dail last week the Taoiseach said he DIDN'T know, he didn't say he couldn't say he said he didn't know, so are you trying to tell me that Bertie Ahern lied in the Dail last week?? I mean if his Minister for Justice and Tánaiste know how in god's name doesn't he know?

Someones lying and I'm betting on Harney and McDowell

Villain

Earthman wrote:

It's not fact then.

Nope it's an opinion based on all the facts I know.

Earthman wrote:

And you believe him and should be respected for that , but that doesnt mitigate the fact that a lot of people dont.

Wikipedia have as part of his bio that he repeatedly denied ever being an IRA member untill papers released under the 30 year rule indicated that he was in it in the early 70's so he had to *cough* own up...
So given that would you blame people for not having faith in his denials of membership of its army council as he has a record of hiding these things?

I totally except other peoples opinion's, I have outlined my opinion and the reasons behind above.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

Nope it's an opinion based on all the facts I know.

Yet in the case of your opinion on Adams he denied IRA membership untill the 30 year rule info came out...
I must say you are very trusting.

It's immaterial to me anyway whether he is or not, I actually believe based on the facts that I have that he is probably privy to the Army council if not a member.
But I also think based on a hunch and on what Reynolds said that there are those in the IRA who against Adams better judgement carried out that robbery.
They dont want this process to continue if it means putting their arms beyond use-that would be defeat in their eyes, they cant see the bigger picture and/or probably had unrealistic expectations from the process.
I'd be surprised if the SF T.D's and Mp's didnt know who these people are-but I don't expect them to squeel, it would be against their " code of honour"

And I'd expect them to continue to deny, deny , deny-why should they do any different, as to do so would cause an almighty upheavel within republicanism and besides according to wikipedia it is previous form for them to deny this sort of thing.

The upshot is, its something the vast majority of the electorate would stay clear of in my opinion untill (a) there is an eventual resolution and (b) suffecient time has passed for people to forget all about it.

Now theres an expanded opinion for you.

Villain

Earthman wrote:

Yet in the case of your opinion on Adams he denied IRA membership untill the 30 year rule info came out...
I must say you are very trusting.

I speaking of the present not the past, what politician has not lied at some stage?

Earthman wrote:

It's immaterial to me anyway whether he is or not, I actually believe based on the facts that I have that he is probably privy to the Army council if not a member.
But I also think based on a hunch and on what Reynolds said that there are those in the IRA who against Adams better judgement carried out that robbery.
They dont want this process to continue if it means putting their arms beyond use-that would be defeat in their eyes, they cant see the bigger picture and/or probably had unrealistic expectations from the process.
I'd be surprised if the SF T.D's and Mp's didnt know who these people are-but I don't expect them to squeel, it would be against their " code of honour"

And I'd expect them to continue to deny, deny , deny-why should they do any different, as to do so would cause an almighty upheavel within republicanism and besides according to wikipedia it is previous form for them to deny this sort of thing.

The upshot is, its something the vast majority of the electorate would stay clear of in my opinion untill (a) there is an eventual resolution and (b) suffecient time has passed for people to forget all about it.

Now theres an expanded opinion for you.

Adams would have to be in contact with some people on the army council or otherwise he wouldn't be able to negioate a deal.

I respect your opinion Earthman, I just wish you had the same respect for mine

solas

I only managed to read up to page five or six...to touch on some things mentioned, I don't know how relevant they are but with regard to "free west waterford", I grew up without any republican links (waterford) and never realised until my teens the full scale of sin fein influence in this county, I don't know how it is elsewhere.
The experience of "sinn feìn" here (outside of the troubles) is usually derived from bog warriors comming in from outside the burrough, where they all have little cosy get togethers weekly and wear their badges proudly so as not to be intimidated by city folk, between tricolour emblem and swallows tattooed on their bodies, make sure you don't say anything that might offend them or they'll tell you their rank and how they sort people out.
There were some kneecappings a few years ago, ballybeg has seen it's fair share of vigilanitism, most people wouldn't complain about that tho as "the IRA are doing what the gaurds could never do and ridding the place of those scum bags"
David Cullinane is from ballybeg.
Is it a wonder why Sinn fein grabbed so many seats in the last local election, they seem to be providing (on the ground) what all the other political parties can't, albeit through terrorism. (vigilantism)
with regards to naming names..sure they can't do that, isn't it illegal to be a member of a terrorist organisation?

<edit: post may contain traces of sarcasm>

solas

on another topic, I really enjoyed much of this debate, if anything open discussion is the only way to move forward and gain some understanding.
GTA, I remember when I was five years old and a bomb was detonated across from my house, I wet my pants (I was only five) and had a fear of walking past cars for years (for fear they were rigged).
Terror grabs hold when young and it does breed more terror. I and I'm sure most people here do understand why it will never work but I can sympathise with all sides who have had to endure living in such fear for so long.
To achieve any sort compromise takes a lot of courage and an ability to be able to see both sides of the coin, perhaps the next generation can do that.

Villain

I hear on the news that Bertie has dismissed the reports on the front page of Indo yesterday, he also told the IMC not to punish SF!!

irish1

irish1 wrote:

I respect your opinion Earthman, I just wish you had the same respect for mine

I'm not sure what you mean by that,I just said people should respect your opinion.
But theres a difference between respecting what people think and believing it to be true.

I speaking of the present not the past, what politician has not lied at some stage?

Thats difficult logic to run with though ie that they have all lied at some point but that doesnt mean that what they say now is a lie.
I suppose thats true but that defence could be used against you when you're doubting other politicians.

For example in the case of Ahern, using it would mean you cant just say he is lying when he says the SF leadership knew of the northern Bank Robbery before it happened...
See where I'm coming from?
The defence you use there is no good as it works as much against you as for you.

By the way I do respect your beliefs,I dont see how or where you can say I don't.
But you surely dont expect to profess your beliefs on a public bulletin board like this and not have them challenged/questioned by people with other beliefs or to simply question or examine your beliefs outright.

Like I said long ago, the problem with SF and its close relationship with the IRA is that pillars of society are saying one thing and SF are saying the other.
Those pillars are the vast majority of the T.D's in the Dáil representing the vast majority of the people in the country and the Gardaí...
Now they don't take their positions too lightly-people rightly place a lot of faith in their opinions and it would take a hell of a lot of convincing to debunk peoples attitudes to their opinions.

I hear on the news that Bertie has dismissed the reports on the front page of Indo yesterday, he also told the IMC not to punish SF!!

Definitely a good move-he's no eejit, they cant be excluded short of the IRA going back to the killing.
But their street cred with him ,Blair and the whitehouse has been damaged and that is a shame.
But his attitude to them is very strained now given the Dáil exchanges of recent days

true

solas wrote:

Terror grabs hold when young and it does breed more terror. I and I'm sure most people here do understand why it will never work but I can sympathise with all sides who have had to endure living in such fear for so long.
To achieve any sort compromise takes a lot of courage and an ability to be able to see both sides of the coin, perhaps the next generation can do that.

The most sensible words I have read in a long time. Hear Hear. On this island , I fear we do not try to see both sides of the coin enough. Or to imagine what is is to be like in the other peoples shoes. Well said.

Also, I think what children are taught when at school is very important. I do not know what they are taught in the North, but I know many , if not most , schools here ( south of the border ) teach history with green tinted glasses.

gurramok

Well here south of the border, we are Irish people where Irish history is taught to our children. its good to inform the next generation our nation's past history.

true

gurramok wrote:

Well here south of the border, we are Irish people where Irish history is taught to our children. its good to inform the next generation our nation's past history.

Absolutely, but my point was ( having gone though the Irish school system ) sometimes history can be taught with a certain "slant", in this case I mention "green tinted glasses". I know in my last academic establishment there were posters glorifying the 1916 leaders etc, but not a word about the tens of thousands of brave Irishmen who fought in both world wars. Some of the teachers were neutral, but some were always making anti-British comments.

gurramok

true wrote:

Absolutely, but my point was ( having gone though the Irish school system ) sometimes history can be taught with a certain "slant", in this case I mention "green tinted glasses". I know in my last academic establishment there were posters glorifying the 1916 leaders etc, but not a word about the tens of thousands of brave Irishmen who fought in both world wars. Some of the teachers were neutral, but some were always making anti-British comments.

In my last encounter with the school sysem, both 1916 and Irishmen who fought in both wwi and wwii were both mentioned and the reasons why. Maybe the teaching varies from school to school.
Most if not all of the teachers were preaching about forgivenes rather than revenge in regard to Britain despite what was happening up north at the time so
I reckon green tinted glasses education was a rarity in my old school.