Pentjak Silat?

Musashi

I would, in no way shape of form advise anyone to take up practicing Pendak Silat. It is in my experience the most dangerous mentality I have come across in Martial Arts. The unhealthy obsession with swords and knives, to the point of deification, and the ardent believe you can turn into animals or black clouds is not a place I'd recommend for anyone.

Just wondering why you feel so strongly about this?

I've an idea of where youve got your impressions of silat from and your comments are probably wholly justified in that instance

Care to share?

I take it you didn't like the movie "The Hunted" then?

Dyr

Musashi wrote:

Care to share?

No first hand experience so: nope.


Ive never seen that film so i dont know if im a fan of it or not. BTW the martial arts in the hunted came from sayoc kali which is not a style of silat but a filipino weapons system. Krishna Godhania,The head instructor of the FMA group i train with, is the Sayoc european rep so if youre interested in trying that stuff, he has Tom Kier ( the sayoc guy who did the choreography for the hunted) in england next month for a seminar. I think Dave Joyce in galway is also trying to organise something with tom kier for ireland this year too.

Colm_OReilly

First of all, the obsession with knives from the upper echolens (sp?) of silat in Ireland is beyond ridiculousness. Anyone who advocates carrying knives imo is not some one who you would want to associate with. They sometimes advocate carrying up to 5 knives.

On the deification of knives. A close friend of mine once studied silat. His guru had him buy roses so he could feed his 500 year old sword. True story.

Here's an excerpt from an article written by William Sanders, who is above the Irish top man, Liam McDonald, afaik:

Would it be more frightening to fight a grimacing gesturing, muscular man coming towards you or an advancing black swirling cloud, out of which - at totally unpredictable intervals - lightening bolts flew out of at various angles? You must become that black swirling cloud!

As my dealings with Liam himself for the past few months he has been passing methods to me thru a guy that trains with me and works with him (seriously!)

Also, here's a thread on irmac.net that Liam posted on, and just attacked the kids class I run.

Above are some of the reasons why I don't advocate training in this style or whit these people.

Take Care,
Colm

vasch_ro

also its illegal to carry knives unless you have a reasonable excuse to do so
ie ur a tradesman going to or from work .

columok

In my opinion, based on reading the literature published by Silat Instructor William Sanders, I would be avoiding this guy. Again just my opinion

From his website www.cimande.com

When Pendekar Sanders was wrestling he actually participated in an even in the Pittsburgh Civic Arena where five individuals volunteered to wrestle a five hundred pound trained wrestling bear. Pendekar Sanders (while his horrified parents watched on) was the only one of the five people to go the distance and not be flattened and pinned by the bear. The match ended with Pendekar Sanders astride the bear pulling its hair! Pendekar Sanders admits later to have been dizzy for a time after as the bear had actually been pressing down on his neck until he stood up taking the bears weight with him in a final effort to break free which succeeded. Pendekar Sanders admits this was something only a crazy teenager would do. He thought he was pretty strong at that point but that bear was just playing and incredibly powerful.

William Sanders BIO
Right! :rolleyes:

OR:

the blade is inverted it acts like a tiger claw. Behind the blade is flower shaped guard with the side two petals bent forward in the Cimande water buffalo style adding hand protection unknown to other kujangs. The handle is made from buffalo horn with the eagle (Garuda) motif. The handle shape aids snap cutting and it is capped with a skull crusher for inside work. A case which is not shown is also included.

Weapons

Skull Crusher? :eek:

Dyr

Gene LeBell used to wrestle bears...

Musashi

also its illegal to carry knives unless you have a reasonable excuse to do so

FIREARMS AND OFFENSIVE WEAPONS ACT, 1990 SECTION 9

9.—(1) Subject to subsections (2) and (3), where a person has with him in any public place any knife or any other article which has a blade or which is sharply pointed, he shall be guilty of an offence.

(2) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.

(3) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (2), it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to prove that he had the article with him for use at work or for a recreational purpose.

(4) Where a person, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the onus of proving which shall lie on him), has with him in any public place—

( a ) any flick-knife, or
( b ) any other article whatsoever made or adapted for use for causing injury to or incapacitating a person,
he shall be guilty of an offence.

(5) Where a person has with him in any public place any article intended by him unlawfully to cause injury to, incapacitate or intimidate any person either in a particular eventuality or otherwise, he shall be guilty of an offence.

(6) In a prosecution for an offence under subsection (5), it shall not be necessary for the prosecution to allege or prove that the intent to cause injury, incapacitate or intimidate was intent to cause injury to, incapacitate or intimidate a particular person; and if, having regard to all the circumstances (including the type of the article alleged to have been intended to cause injury, incapacitate or intimidate, the time of the day or night, and the place), the court (or the jury as the case may be) thinks it reasonable to do so, it may regard possession of the article as sufficient evidence of intent in the absence of any adequate explanation by the accused.

( 7 ) ( a ) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both.

( b ) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (4) or (5) shall be liable—
(i) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both, or
(ii) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to both.
(8) In this section "public place" includes any highway and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have access, whether on payment or otherwise, and includes any club premises and any train, vessel or vehicle used for the carriage of persons for reward.

(9) In this section "flick-knife" means a knife—

( a ) which has a blade which opens when hand pressure is applied to a button, spring, lever or other device in or attached to the handle, or
( b ) which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and when released is locked in an open position by means of a button, spring, lever or other device.


So basically you cannot carry anything with you to injure someone,or even if it's something innocent and you hurt some one with it you may be prosecuted.

Musashi

The following were added to the list of banned weapons


( b ) a knuckleduster, that is to say—



(i) a band of metal or other hard material worn on one or more fingers, and designed to cause injury, or



(ii) any weapon incorporating a knuckleduster;



( c ) a swordstick or dagger cane, that is, a hollow walking-stick or cane containing a blade which may be used as a sword or dagger;



( d ) a sword umbrella, that is an umbrella containing a blade which may be used as a sword;



( e ) any weapon from which one or more sharp spikes protrude which is worn attached to the foot, ankle, hand or wrist (sometimes known when intended to be attached to the foot, as a footclaw and, when intended to be attached to the hand, as a handclaw);



( f ) the weapon sometimes known as a belt buckle knife, being a buckle which incorporates or conceals a knife;



( g ) the weapon sometimes known as a push dagger, being a knife the handle of which fits within a clenched fist and the blade of which protrudes from between two fingers;



( h ) the weapon sometimes known as a hollow kubotan, being a cylindrical container containing a number of sharp spikes;



( i ) the weapon sometimes known as a shuriken, shaken or death star, being a hard non-flexible plate having three or more sharp radiating points and designed to be thrown;



( j ) the weapon sometimes known as a balisong or butterfly knife, being a blade enclosed by its handle, which is designed to split down the middle, without the operation of a spring or other mechanical means, to reveal the blade;



( k ) the weapon sometimes known as a telescopic truncheon or telescopic billy, being a truncheon which extends automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to its handle;



( l ) the weapon sometimes known as a blowpipe or blow gun, being a hollow tube out of which hard pellets or darts are shot by the use of human breath;



( m ) the weapon sometimes known as a kusari gama, being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a sickle;



( n ) the weapon sometimes known as a kyoketsu shoge, being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a hooked knife;



( o ) the weapon sometimes known as a manrikigusari or kusari, being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at each end to a hard weight or hand grip;



( p ) the weapon sometimes known as a sap glove, being a glove into which metal or some other hard material has been inserted or to which metal or such material has been attached;



( q ) the broad knife known as a machete or matchet.

Dyr

goddamn, I didnt realise that theyd banned death stars. Mine is half built and all :mad:

dudara

When Pendekar Sanders was wrestling he actually participated in an even in the Pittsburgh Civic Arena where five individuals volunteered to wrestle a five hundred pound trained wrestling bear. Pendekar Sanders (while his horrified parents watched on) was the only one of the five people to go the distance and not be flattened and pinned by the bear. The match ended with Pendekar Sanders astride the bear pulling its hair! Pendekar Sanders admits later to have been dizzy for a time after as the bear had actually been pressing down on his neck until he stood up taking the bears weight with him in a final effort to break free which succeeded. Pendekar Sanders admits this was something only a crazy teenager would do. He thought he was pretty strong at that point but that bear was just playing and incredibly powerful.

Not the brightest spark in the world, was he?

I've never heard of this "Pentjak Silat" before. Could anyone fill me in quickly on the background details, although I think I already get the unhealthy obsession with knives.

As to this..

Would it be more frightening to fight a grimacing gesturing, muscular man coming towards you or an advancing black swirling cloud, out of which - at totally unpredictable intervals - lightening bolts flew out of at various angles? You must become that black swirling cloud!

My reply would be to take up smoking, that would definitely generate the required cloud of blackness.

soma

While I in no way claim to be speaking on behalf of silat practioners (I'm only a beginner), I seem to be the only silat player on this board(?) so I certainly have to pipe up here.

Colm I'm a little surprised/disapointed with your complete negativity & trying to taint an entire system. For example, people try to do that to MMA. Do I listen to people who say all MMA guys are just violent thugs? No, I've read you've website, seen some UFC & been impressed.

Colm offered a link to a thread where Liam (my Guru) responded, so I'll let him do the talking:

>>>

I'm glad we got some reality back to this discussion and we can talk again maybe on a more mature level ( and not have to hurl silly stupid remarks towards each other).

Colin I totally agree with you about the "alive" training this is the way you must train, if you wish what you teach to be street effective. I've have seen some silat styles and schools where their training and ideals are total nonsense and won't work against an resisting opponent in the same way I have seen some people who claim to be grapplers and they are crap. Every style has it good people and bad people its good clubs and bad clubs. If you guys are making your art "alive" fair play to you and respect for doing so. But what comes accross at times is you guys feel that you're the only one who do it this way. In Cimande we follow this same very concept I have made sure that the training is done in this same manner.

Where we differ is in the thinking of the "ring" we talk about this before and we have to agree to disagree, but thats cool. We don't have to sing from the same hymm book. We also have different views on tradition and history part in Martial Arts Training. And again on the internal aspects of training ( and this is a very big subject, most people get this mixed up with the spirtual side, which is not, and every man beliefs is his own personal thing, and I will neither promote nor run down any other person beliefs. But this internal side is used to develop Strength, flexibility, Fluidility etc.. by using the secondary muscle systems of the body, in the end most people are fighting over words) So why don't we try something new here on these forums instead of trying to take the mickey out of other people styles to make us feel good, why don't we just focus on all the good things that make us excel at what we do. In the end what does it matter, what other people are doing.

>>>


Also - I wish to point out that I, nor any of my classmates to my knowledge, have NEVER been advised to carry a concealed weapon.

We have also been strongly reminded (even though it's common sense) that even though someone might think it's cool to have a sword in their house, you cannot very well grab it & start wielding it if a burglar breaks in, so I do take exception to us all being painted as weapon-wielding maniacs :eek:

Finally - Yes in the "upper echelons" of pencak silat there are some unusual aspects & beliefs. This is hardly unique to silat. Tai Chi, Yoga etc.. believe in the existence of internal energy. It's very easy to just go on the web & find all kinds of claims. Here's one about karate:

"One of these techniques is called Ki control or Aiki Arts which is based in breath control. When trained properly, the practitioner is able to take full blows to the groin, throat, solar plexus, floating ribs and other parts of the body with no physical damage or bruising." (from http://www.bubishi.com/martialarts/karate.html ).

Most people in silat I've met are polite, friendly, helpful & well-balanced individuals. The lack of ego & willingness to help beginners has been refreshing & most welcome.

dabhal

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Also, here's a thread on irmac.net that Liam posted on, and just attacked the kids class I run.
Colm

[Comic Book Guy Voice]
IRMAC, Worst Colour Scheme Ever

Rev Hellfire

Man, I've got to get an unhealthy obsession with sharp edged weapons !

vasch_ro

Musashi wrote:

FIREARMS AND OFFENSIVE WEAPONS ACT, 1990 SECTION 9



(2) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.

(.

once u have a legit reason , eg on your way to martial arts class with itens in sports bag etc its cool

think of an electrician on his way to work , he carries at least one knife i'm sure
but its in his tool box and he has a reasonable excuse to have one
now if he was out side a chipper at 2am waving it about , or had it concealed on his person .................

Musashi

Whatever about a knife,but this POS!! I doubt you could draw it much less cut with the awkward lump! And forget about thrusting.It's as much use as those old "Rambo" daggers with the hollow handles.Make teen boys feel good but eff all use otherwise.
Maybe for Pagan rituals??




This is a combat dagger with skull crusher pommell, still illegal here but a real knife.

The Silat designs don't inspire confidence in the rest of his spiel!

soma

Musashi - Do you honestly believe that a system like silat, with a large part of it devoted to knives, would use knives that are useless..? Are you now a knife expert..? (Perhaps you are, I don't know you). Altho you give out about an "awkward lump" which is in reality used for both defense & offense, and saying "forget about thrusting" when silat is a very close-in system & I very much doubt thrusting is advocated (more likely slashing).

The main blade in cimande (our silat) is the keris, which was described by U.S. special forces as one of the best working knives in the world. But then again I'm sure you could find a picture of it & poke fun.

What the hell is this..? "National Pick-on Silat Week"..?

paddyc

I dont have much time to right at the moment but will reply, I think to look at one guru/style of silat and comment it not healthy.

The some what obsession for knives in Silat grew out of the fact that it was a battle field art, and knives are small and deceptive as so good on a battle field when close contact fightin is required.. Therefore is was essential to know how to use and defend them.... albeit, you dont really need a running battles with knives in this era.... some people feel that they are not of this time and to traini in this art makes them feel like the warrior in them demands..

A friend of mine has been training Silat for years and I can assure you that this fella is the business, he dont sit and stare at a candle for hours and summon up spirits, but if you ask him to handle him self, well then there no better man for the job..

It is easy to comment on other arts, but I think it is important to try the art first with an open mind and see how it works.

will be back when i have time.

paddy

Musashi

would use knives that are useless..?

Not necessarily,but that yoke would be worse than useless.

Are you now a knife expert..?

I know a bit, and have used many types over the years when hunting to gralloch Deer,gut fish etc.

when silat is a very close-in system & I very much doubt thrusting is advocated (more likely slashing).

If you are close in slashing is near impossible and thrusting a much simpler proposition.Thrusting is known to be much more lethal,observe the Roman Gladius and the work of Fairbairn and Sykes on "bleed out" times and their design of the British Commando dagger.
You should also see the reverse grip edge in blade work of some Filipino styles,Pekiti Tersia being one I believe?
Keating on the other hand does a lot of work on sabre grip Bowie technique.
What they, and all field tested designs, have in common are that they are simple and direct.If it looks like a Klingon sword then it belongs in a Sci-Fi convention.
I am not picking on Silat ,but that knife design is wholly impractical for any application.I haven't seen your training but am going again from what is presented on the website of the head guy of your association.I am open to correction here if you can explain any benefit of that design which is not covered better by another blade style.

soma

Fair enough masashi, that's good to know you've got that knife experience, to be honest I did think you were just throwing out some statements w/o experience which seems to be norm on these boards sometimes!

I am defo in no position to start comparing blades etc, I simply don't have the knowledge/experience, but maybe some other folk do.

One last thing - man there is major concentration on this topic of knives.. bear in mind pencak silat instruction is still primarily open-hand (I've only encountered knives/swords at seminars, not regular classes) & alot of schools believe in the importance of "Aliveness" like MMA clubs do.

Dyr

lots of SE Asian blade designs look bizzare to me, such as the kampilan, various types of keris, some of the parangs (sp?) but apparently they're all very functional

Musashi

Bambi,
the Kampilan and Moro Barong,Parang etc. are essentially sword/machete type blades stylesfor chopping and slashing.The Kerambit has enjoyed a resurgence in popularity due to the Ernest Emerson and Spyderco offerings.Good for retention but limited in scope.
Ernie Emerson has some clips on his site showing his technique with it.It was also featured in "The Punisher" movie.
The angle of the curve on this other blade is similar to the Khukri,which I like.The hooky bit near the fingers would get in the way though,is it intended to trap and parry like the large guards on older bowies?The point could possibly thrust,but the shoulder behind it would limit penetration,like a Gunting from Bram Frank?
The closest I've ever seen to this design is the "Battle Sickle" by Laci Szabo,I believe.Even that is a more streamlined and specialised weapon.
Fair enough,people like studying ancient weapons arts,See the likes of Iado, Kendo,Krabi Krabong, and the various medieval and modern fencing groups like Schola Gladiatora.I see no problem with a Kendo guy owning a Paul Chen Practical Plus Katana or the guy who collects Angus Trim broad swords.
I feel swords and knives are tools,like hammers or nail bars.Some are actual works of art.They are not however souls or spirits of warriors They are pointy,and sometimes sharp hanks of steel.They can be abused, but you are more likely to get slashed with a Stanley knife or stabbed with a screwdriver or kitchen knife.
I have nothing against knives either,I own some very nice ones including Laminated blades by Helle in Sweden.They are also functional.

Soma,
Further to knife training in general,check out Bram Frank,Mike Janich,Emerson, and Southnarcs "Reverse Edge Methods" from Shivworks.

Dyr

yeah but you cant deny some of those kampilans and parangs look downright funky in comparison to most swords

I think valiant have similiar weapons to that thing on their website somewhere