Sean Russell statue

magpie

They want to replace the existing, vandalised, statue with a bust inside a bulletproof box. Oh, the irony.

DUBLIN Corporation is facing international pressure not to grant permission for the replacement of the statue in Fairview Park, Dublin, of IRA leader and Nazi collaborator Sean Russell.

The head and right hand of the statue was stolen over Christmas by a group which called Russell a fascist stooge.

Now the National Graves Association, which cares for IRA graves and memorials, wants to replace the statue with a bronze bust inside a bullet-proof glass box. An Irish flag was draped over the statue yesterday.

However, it will have to convince Dublin City Council of the worth of rebuilding a memorial to a man who died on board a German U-boat after plotting the invasion of Ireland by the Nazis.

Labour Councillor Mary Freehill, who chairs Dublin City Council's public arts committee, said the issue of the Russell statue had not been discussed to date but that, as a general rule, the Council was against the erection of commemorative statues and favoured works of art.

She said people seeking to commemorate a historical figure would do better to set up a charitable bursary.

Speaking to the Times of London last week, Dr Shimon Samuels of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Paris said the statue should be left unrestored as an enduring symbol of Ireland's "shame" at the IRA's wartime collaboration with the Nazis.

Mr Samuels said: "It's a blot on the history of Ireland - but blots have to see the public light. We're not iconoclasts, but I think the destruction of something like this has a meaning, and we would ask for it to be left there as a lesson of what Irish neutrality was all about."

Mr Samuels did not refer to the fact that Sinn Fein has been holding a commemorative ceremony at the statue for years and in October 2003 Sinn Fein MEP Mary Lou McDonald, alongside convicted IRA bomber Brian Keenan, addressed a meeting in front of the statue.

Sean Russell conspired with the Nazis to invade Ireland during the Second World War, but died from a perforated ulcer while he was being returned to Ireland on board a U-boat somewhere off the west coast of Ireland in August 1941.

from unison.ie

Sleepy

If the government spend my money on that ****ing thing, I'll find a way of getting through bulletproof glass.

A Dub in Glasgo

The National Graves Association are looking for public donations to repair the statue.

The Association is not in receipt of, nor have they ever applied for, state funding of any kind. They depend entirely on voluntary donations from nationally minded people, at home and abroad, and on annual subscriptions from Associate members.

You can sleep easy now sleepy

I have just donated some money to fund a repair

Sleepy

Where do I donate to have it removed?

And surely the council can deny the right to have the statue repaired.

magpie

I love any 'history' site that makes reference to the 'Tan War'. :rolleyes:

Sleepy: funny how the same people with a history of blowing up memorials (Nelson anyone?) are so keen to preserve other ones.

I think they should replace it with a statue of a proud 'freedom fighter' in balaclava making the nazi salute on a background of a swastika, with crossed u-boats and a mound of dead unter-menschen and 'free-staters'.

A Dub in Glasgo

LOL... have I just clicked the humour forum?

Sleepy

No, you've reached the thread where people realise that the maxim "mine enemy's enemy is my friend" is complete horse-sh:t if your enemy's enemy has commited worse crimes than the crimes you feel your enemy has commited.

Any involvement with Nazi Germany (other than fighting it) was a shameful thing. I'm ashamed that the statue was placed in that park in the first place. I'm proud of whoever defaced it and I'll be damned if you blindly nationalistic lunatics are allowed erect another statue to someone who consorted with one of the vilest cancers in human history.

A Dub in Glasgo

Sleepy wrote:

No, you've reached the thread where people realise that the maxim "mine enemy's enemy is my friend" is complete horse-sh:t if your enemy's enemy has commited worse crimes than the crimes you feel your enemy has commited.

Any involvement with Nazi Germany (other than fighting it) was a shameful thing. I'm ashamed that the statue was placed in that park in the first place. I'm proud of whoever defaced it and I'll be damned if you blindly nationalistic lunatics are allowed erect another statue to someone who consorted with one of the vilest cancers in human history.

You can feel shame all you want. I am not ashamed of it. Russell was not a Nazi or a fascist. This feels like deja vu as we went through all this stuff last week in the other thread!

What is your view of the President of Ireland who signed a book of condolence to one of the vilest cancers in human history?

Good to see your view firmly nailed to the mast with your endorsement and delight in vandalism :rolleyes:

Sleepy

Good to see your view firmly nailed to the mast with your endorsement and delight in faschism and ignorance. :rolleyes:

A Dub in Glasgo

I am not a fascist or ignorant... seems like someone just woke you up to Irish History and some of the threads here where this has been discussed since last week.

true

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I am not a fascist or ignorant...

LOL. A provo supporter claims he is not a fascist or ignorant. You seem like a fascist to me, Dub in Glasgow, who thrives on all things republican and anti-British. It is sick you could support a statue put up to such an ally of the Nazis. You insult all of Hitlers victims in Europe.

toiletduck

My enemy's enemy is still my enemy....

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

LOL. A provo supporter claims he is not a fascist or ignorant. You seem like a fascist to me, Dub in Glasgow, who thrives on all things republican and anti-British. It is sick you could support a statue put up to such an ally of the Nazis. You insult all of Hitlers victims in Europe.

First up true, I would be grateful if you could link to some of my postings which show I am a Fascist. I have republican leanings. I am not anti-British people. Please show my ignorance of things while your at it

Sick to want a statue that was vandalised repaired? If you think that, you are in for a rude awakening in the real world.

I insult none of the victims of Hitler and your last statement is quite a naive and immature one.

sceptre

All of you: stop acting like children.

Pesky kids, grow up. Or at least pretend while you're still here. You may not be here tomorrow.

FTA69

Sleepy wrote:

I'll be damned if you blindly nationalistic lunatics are allowed erect another statue to someone who consorted with one of the vilest cancers in human history.

Calm down a bit before you strap on the semtex and kamikaze headband Sleepy. The memorial was erected in memory of IRA Volunteers in general, including those executed by the Free State government and those who died on hunger-strike, it was not solely to do with Russell.

Perhaps you might want to review the following quote from Russell himself; "I am not a Nazi. I am not even pro-German. I am an Irishman fighting for the independence of Ireland" - Sean Russell

Hardly the talk of a "facist" is it? Russell's only motive was the rearming of Óglaigh na hÉireann, in my opinion it was short-sighted and naieve but it most definitely was not the evil incarnate as some people here would portray it.

The IRA always sought external aid, Pa Murphy of the IRA sought aid and arms from Stalin in 1927, was he a Stalinist? Roger Casement imported arms from Germany in 1916, was he a monarchist?

Sometimes "the enemy of my enemy..." tactic is successful, other times it is not. Russell's actions were a classic example of it being unsuccessful, the man was neither a facist or a Nazi sympathiser.

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

Calm down a bit before you strap on the semtex and kamikaze headband Sleepy.

Cant see him laying his hands on that too easily, unless your mates can help him

The memorial was erected in memory of IRA Volunteers in general, including those executed by the Free State government and those who died on hunger-strike, it was not solely to do with Russell.

There's that "Free State" $hit again

Perhaps you might want to review the following quote from Russell himself; "I am not a Nazi. I am not even pro-German. I am an Irishman fighting for the independence of Ireland" - Sean Russell

Whatever

Hardly the talk of a "facist" is it? Russell's only motive was the rearming of Óglaigh na hÉireann,

The Minister and Department of Defence were working on that, and I cant find any reference to them requesting his assistance in this matter.

Sometimes "the enemy of my enemy..." tactic is successful, other times it is not. Russell's actions were a classic example of it being unsuccessful, the man was neither a facist or a Nazi sympathiser.

Just another IRA gob$hite, who of course, knew better than anyone else what this country needed, in those dark and dangerous times

jbkenn

AmenToThat

Looking forward to making a donation to commemorate and Irish patriot but I dont think it will be an issue.
20mil+ in sterling just laying there so I reckon a bigger statue is in order.

true

Yeah, its not as if they would want to give the stolen 20 million to their victims , to the widows and children, to the people with legs blown off, to those whose lives they destroyed. Oh no, to add insult to injury, a bigger statue is in order. Maybe they could make it by buying all the old spectacle frames from Auchwitz and melting them down?

AmenToThat

true wrote:

Maybe they could make it by buying all the old spectacle frames from Auchwitz and melting them down?

No need as theres plenty of money in the coffers but thanks for the suggestion.

elivsvonchiaing

Speaking to the Times of London last week, Dr Shimon Samuels of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Paris said the statue should be left unrestored as an enduring symbol of Ireland's "shame" at the IRA's wartime collaboration with the Nazis.

The Jews are not a race but a religious/cultural collective - can't say nation - 4 party coalition in the knesset - sorry. On this basis the French a$$hole should have studied French history first, then Jewish history in France, then Irish history.

This has all the arrogance and self-righteous bigotry of the Dreyfus affair imho!

true

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

The Jews are not a race but a religious/cultural collective - can't say nation - 4 party coalition in the knesset - sorry. On this basis the French a$$hole should have studied French history first, then Jewish history in France, then Irish history.

This has all the arrogance and self-righteous bigotry of the Dreyfus affair imho!

Ok , so the Jews are not a race, sez you. Did he say the Jews were a race ? What difference does it make to the topic - the Russell statue ? Anyway, what race / country is a race? The melting pot is getting well mixed up over the centuries now.

And talking about arrogance and bigotry, I think the victims of the IRA and the Nazis would have more to say about that than you.

sceptre

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

The Jews are not a race but a religious/cultural collective - can't say nation - 4 party coalition in the knesset - sorry. On this basis the French a$$hole should have studied French history first, then Jewish history in France, then Irish history.

I'm missing your point and its relevance. I've a feeling when you explain "not a race but a religious/cultural collective" and explain why this is relevant I'll disagree with you anyway, you come across as smarter than the average bear so I rather hope it's more whan "why the jews aren't worth it". So, er, what you talking about Willis?

This has all the arrogance and self-righteous bigotry of the Dreyfus affair imho!

With my comment above in mind, don't make me say J'accuse as I'm no Zola and neither are you.

(I may be misreading your post but I try to do the reasonable man thing when readnig them, particularly as on again off again moderator and a reasonable man might well wonder WTF, that guy's angry about something, who knows what it is but it doesn't sound all that unagendaic)

elivsvonchiaing

sceptre wrote:

I'm missing your point and its relevance. I've a feeling when you explain "not a race but a religious/cultural collective" and explain why this is relevant I'll disagree with you anyway, you come across as smarter than the average bear so I rather hope it's more whan "why the jews aren't worth it". So, er, what you talking about Willis?


With my comment above in mind, don't make me say J'accuse as I'm no Zola and neither are you.

Think Adolf Hitler's premise was the Jews were a race - they are not. Early 20th century (late 19th ???) Jewish thinking divided them into 3 classifications - still many races - Sephardic (Iberian) - Ashkenazic (Germany + eastwards)- Edot Ha'Misrach (Eastern Jews - Ethiopia, Silk road Jews etc).

The point being I see the "accuser" of belonging to a "fictional" race and ignoring the fact that he is in fact French, could be Israeli dunno - it's just where this came from - and I think this should have been thought through before such comments were made - I would not have objected so strongly to this coming from Israel tbh!

This post was semi-cerebral and no other part of me had anything to do with it - please don't address my private part in future! Only g/f s get to call him Willis ffs! :rolleyes:

elivsvonchiaing

true wrote:

Ok , so the Jews are not a race, sez you.
See previous post.

true wrote:

And talking about arrogance and bigotry, I think the victims of the IRA and the Nazis would have more to say about that than you.

Would totally agree - but wtf has that to do with this post

sceptre

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

Think Adolf Hitler's premise was the Jews were a race - they are not. Early 20th century (late 19th ???) Jewish thinking divided them into 3 classifications - still many races - Sephardic (Iberian) - Ashkenazic (Germany + eastwards)- Edot Ha'Misrach (Eastern Jews - Ethiopia, Silk road Jews etc).

The point being I see the "accuser" of belonging to a "fictional" race and ignoring the fact that he is in fact French, could be Israeli dunno - it's just where this came from - and I think this should have been thought through before such comments were made - I would not have objected so strongly to this coming from Israel tbh!

So apart from your estimation that he has no (or may not have) locus standi to be making such remarks, presumably as you estimate that the organisation he represents has no locus standi to have a position on the issue (given that he's representing them rather than speaking on his own behalf as a French or Israeli or anywhere else jewish person/member of a tripartite whatever to judge from the article) and regardless of what colour his pinkies are (in other words, discussing the actual existence of his locus standi elsewhere and leaving the horse outside the tent), got any views on his views about Russell being having an involvement with a group of people who killed people systematically and repeatedly for whatever reason (the Nazis in this case but you can talk about the IRA if you feel the need) and on what state his statue should be left in?

In other words, obviously the guy belongs to a race and regardless of which one it might be (because it's not necessarily all that relevant), what did you think of what he had to say?

AmenToThat

sceptre wrote:

got any views on his views about Russell being having an involvement with a group of people who killed people systematically and repeatedly for whatever reason (the Nazis in this case but you can talk about the IRA if you feel the need)

Or the British or the Americans.................the list goes on and on.

sceptre

AmenToThat wrote:

Or the British or the Americans.................the list goes on and on.

Yeah, Russell's involvement with the Americans and British is well documented. Deal with the subject at hand (I'm not pushed about which side of the fence you place yourself on as long as it's coherent) or bugger off.

elivsvonchiaing

sceptre wrote:

So apart from your estimation that he has no (or may not have) locus standi to be making such remarks, presumably as you estimate that the organisation he represents has no locus standi to have a position on the issue (given that he's representing them rather than speaking on his own behalf as a French or Israeli or anywhere else jewish person/member of a tripartite whatever to judge from the article) and regardless of what colour his pinkies are (in other words, discussing the actual existence of his locus standi elsewhere and leaving the horse outside the tent), got any views on his views about Russell being having an involvement with a group of people who killed people systematically and repeatedly for whatever reason (the Nazis in this case but you can talk about the IRA if you feel the need) and on what state his statue should be left in?

In other words, obviously the guy belongs to a race and regardless of which one it might be (because it's not necessarily all that relevant), what did you think of what he had to say?

There is always an edge to where something comes from - I'm not denying his locus standiHowever, I believe it would leave a better taste in the mouth if the origin was Berlin, recently emigrated from Israel, and their name was Herzog (we could pretend - Jaysus must be a relation - of course we woulnd't even be bothered to google (to see if was a relation)- and then again our backs wouldn't be up over this (well mine anyhow) - hiss!)

Sleepy

FTA69 wrote:

Calm down a bit before you strap on the semtex and kamikaze headband Sleepy. The memorial was erected in memory of IRA Volunteers in general, including those executed by the Free State government and those who died on hunger-strike, it was not solely to do with Russell.

If you must celebrate republicanism and IRA Volunteers surely a better person can be chosen to represent your cause than one who collaborated with such an evil regime?

Perhaps you might want to review the following quote from Russell himself; "I am not a Nazi. I am not even pro-German. I am an Irishman fighting for the independence of Ireland" - Sean Russell

Hardly the talk of a "facist" is it? Russell's only motive was the rearming of Óglaigh na hÉireann, in my opinion it was short-sighted and naieve but it most definitely was not the evil incarnate as some people here would portray it.

The man was a opportunist that couldn't see past the fact that in defending themselves Britain were also protecting us from invasion (because we surely would have been next had Operation Sealion been successful). As I keep stating, when the crimes of your enemy's enemy are worse than the crimes your enemy has committed the maxim of "mine enemy's enemy..." has no validity.

The IRA always sought external aid, Pa Murphy of the IRA sought aid and arms from Stalin in 1927, was he a Stalinist? Roger Casement imported arms from Germany in 1916, was he a monarchist?

Sometimes "the enemy of my enemy..." tactic is successful, other times it is not. Russell's actions were a classic example of it being unsuccessful, the man was neither a facist or a Nazi sympathiser.

I think the word you should choose there is "legitimate" instead of successful.

At the time of Russell's involvement with the Germans, they had already annexed or invaded Belgium, Poland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Luxembourg, The Netherlands and Norway. Even a small child would be able to see that it was only a matter of time before they had invaded us unless Britain, France and their allies at the time could stop them.

So, let me clarify your position on this. You think the man was short-sighted and naieve yet still worthy of celebration? Should we take this to mean that short-sightedness and naieveté are worthy of celebration in Republican circles? If so, it would certainly explain your deification of Bobby Sands, who whilst I would consider him to have been incredibly naieve and quite stupid, even I would deem him to be more worthy a subject of a commemorative statue than someone who essentially betrayed his country to another purely to annoy the English.

Sleepy

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Good to see your view firmly nailed to the mast with your endorsement and delight in vandalism :rolleyes:

Just to bring this up again. Are you telling me that you considered the IRA bombing of Nelson's Column vandalism?

ionapaul

true wrote:

You seem like a fascist to me, Dub in Glasgow, who thrives on all things republican and anti-British.

Let's not go overboard here. Dub in Glasgow (I imagine) lives in Britain and pays his taxes to Her Majesty's Government. Or draws the dole so generously provided by the taxes of British citizens. He might even be a British citizen, ffs!

I doubt he is running around draped in a tricolour and cursing 'those murderous Brits!' and 'the treasonous Free-staters' for driving him from his native soil. Being anti-British while living in Britain would be fairly idiotic...though that one-handed terrorist supporter in London got away with it for years.