Happy with the number of immigrants in Ireland?

fragile

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Recall how the 911 attacks were planned from Germany by Islamofascists, and that Moroccan Islamofascists in Spain committing the March 11th Madrid terrorist attacks. We must deny these Islamofascist terrorists shelter on our soil.

Personally I am more worried about letting the US use Shannon as a launching pad for its oppressive and self-serving wars.

We must vigorously reject the abuse of our asylum-system by terrorists who seek to use Western countries as launchpads for the planning of terrorist operations.

As I said, the US is the only country or organisation I know of that is using our country as a launchpad.

AlienGav

no idea how to explain this, but i'm sure you'll agree

http://homepage.mac.com/thetattooist/.Movies/whiteblack.swf

landser

fragile wrote:

Personally I am more worried about letting the US use Shannon as a launching pad for its oppressive and self-serving wars.
QUOTE]

are you for real? you are more worried about this state being used by the US than our harbouring islamic terrorists? that kinda says it all really.

as for asylum seekers. many are bogus (hence the repatriations) mant are not. we should speed up the asylum process and ensure that those who are not deserving of asylum are on the nextboat outta here.

immigrants are different. if we ask them here, well that's that. however, i prefer the working visa approcah as opposed to granting citizenship.

growler

I always find it utterly bizzare that Irish people have the cheek to complain about immigration given our own history of mass immigration in the distant and not-too distant past. I saw on BBC news last night that the Irish still account for the largest number of immigrants in the UK, us Irish are no longer providing the unskilled labour that we traditionally did to England but the descendants of the 1940's/ 50's immigrants are now contributing to the economy at every level as are our exported graduates. I would fully expect that the descendants of our current immigrants will strive to better their lot in the future and benefit our economy in the process.

It's comical to hear talk of harbouring terrorists here , the only terrorists we harbour are of the home grown variety.

It's also very worrying to think that some people believe that Muslims are all wanna be theocrats / fanatics / Sharia zealots etc. , those people who leave their country often do so to escape oppressive regimes or to simply seek a better life for their families by living in a more open and free society and an economy that is free. It would take an awful lot of immigrants to be able to undermine our democracy.

The importation of different cultures can only have a positive effect on our own cultural landscape.

aidan_walsh

landser wrote:

we should speed up the asylum process and ensure that those who are not deserving of asylum are on the nextboat outta here.

And in doing so send home legitimate asylum seekers simply becuase we skimmed over their papers while in the process of looking for even more people to deport?

What we should do is have more people working the cases and more offices for people to be able to go to. There needs to be a proper agency running the whole thing.

arcadegame2004

doodle_sketch wrote:

And in doing so send home legitimate asylum seekers simply becuase we skimmed over their papers while in the process of looking for even more people to deport?

What we should do is have more people working the cases and more offices for people to be able to go to. There needs to be a proper agency running the whole thing.

As far as most Irish people are concerned, an asylum-seeker should only be considered genuine if Ireland was the first safe country they entered after leaving their home country - assuming they come from a country where they were in danger in the first place. In the event that the "asylum-seeker" comes from a safe country, then I say send them home and let them apply for a work-permit, instead of trying to deceive the Irish state into thinking they are refugees. The UN Refugee Convention 1951 was not written to facilitate economic-migration under the disguise of fleeing war, famine, or persecution.

Someone here said that the work-permit system should not tie a worker to an employer. I am open to listening to suggestions on what kind of system advocates of this point of view would like to replace the existing system. I personally feel that non-EU workers coming to Ireland should only be allowed to work in industries experiencing labour-shortages, so as to minimise foreign labour-competition with Irish job-seekers. Charity begins at home is a good saying indeed, and we should remember that. The No.1 priority for a government has to be the welfare of its own people. There is nothing racist about that. There is everything patriotic about that.

On the claims that multiculturalism "can only benefit Ireland", I cannot fully agree. This sort of statement has a tone of inevitability about it, but that doesn't make it inevitable.

The kind of multiculturalism that I am determined we must stop from arriving on these shores is that seen in Britain recently where Muslim immigrants have waged a campaign of threats to stop ads for Desperate Housewifes and other soaps from being shown near Mosques. These are the kind of nutters I am so concerned about, determined to ram theocracy down our Western throats. Haven't we spent long enough trying to throw off the yoke or church domination without it being returned to this isle through Islamic migration? I am sorry but come on now, we all know (or should) how widespread religious fanaticism, often of a violent bent, is in the Arab world, and the Muslim world generally. I think that Turkey is probably an exception to this, but in general my point holds. I am not tarring all Muslims with the one brush, but there is clearly a greater risk of terrorism and an assault on the secular state arising from Muslim migration from most Muslim countries. We need to bear this in mind when framing our immigration policy.

I always find it utterly bizzare that Irish people have the cheek to complain about immigration given our own history of mass immigration in the distant and not-too distant past. I saw on BBC news last night that the Irish still account for the largest number of immigrants in the UK, us Irish are no longer providing the unskilled labour that we traditionally did to England but the descendants of the 1940's/ 50's immigrants are now contributing to the economy at every level as are our exported graduates. I would fully expect that the descendants of our current immigrants will strive to better their lot in the future and benefit our economy in the process.

But the nations of Europe are different from the "New World" countries of North American, South America, Australia and New Zealand. You need to realise that. These countries were built on immigration and so ethnicity is not part of their national identities. Like it or not, Ireland and Europe are generally differerent. And regarding migration to Britain, it's hardly like Irish people were ever going to outnumber the British. And anyway, both our countries are rich now so neither of us will flood into each others countries in a manner likely to place our respective hjealth-services under intolerable strain. Irish people were genuinely fleeing persecution and famine when most of them were emigrating. There is simply no comparison with migration from the present-day developing world, where there is generally no persecution, famine or war, and even if there were, fleeers would long since arrive in another safe, or EU country, LONG before arriving in Ireland. So let's not be so gullable as to believe that denying immigrants entry to Ireland will lead to almost certain death/circumcision/torture, OK? :rolleyes:

I think a certain degree of multiculturalism is acceptable. I believe in tolerance but I am utterly and doggedly opposed to those views expressed on this forum by posters calling for even more liberal immigration-policies. I strongly advise those to think through thoroughly the long term consequences for the Irish health-service, welfare-state and race relations. The rise of the Far Right across mainland Europe tells a story of what happens when governments get ahead of their people on immigration policy.

sceptre

arcadegame2004 wrote:

As far as most Irish people are concerned, an asylum-seeker should only be considered genuine if Ireland was the first safe country they entered after leaving their home country

Any source for that factually-presented empirical statement?

(I do appreciate that you've managed to move from "they're not if it isn't" to "people think they should be only if it is" by the way)

Frank Grimes

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I am not tarring all Muslims with the one brush, but there is clearly a greater risk of terrorism and an assault on the secular state arising from Muslim migration from most Muslim countries. We need to bear this in mind when framing our immigration policy.

Seems to me like you are tarring them all but regardless, you still haven't suggested what should be done with regards to Muslims immigrating here and for existing Muslims in this country. Remember, not all Muslims living in the Western world are immigrants.
So what do you suggest should be done?

MadsL

Originally Posted by arcadegame2004
As far as most Irish people are concerned, an asylum-seeker should only be considered genuine if Ireland was the first safe country they entered after leaving their home country

'Small' problem of international law...

I am not tarring all Muslims with the one brush, but there is clearly a greater risk of terrorism and an assault on the secular state arising from Muslim migration from most Muslim countries. We need to bear this in mind when framing our immigration policy.

As we know there have been numerous 'terrorist' acts in the island of ireland. How many of these have been attributed to Muslims compared to our balaclava 'brethren'??

But the nations of Europe are different from the "New World" countries of North American, South America, Australia and New Zealand. You need to realise that. These countries were built on immigration and so ethnicity is not part of their national identities. Like it or not, Ireland and Europe are generally differerent.

The world is changing, like it or not, you need to realise that.

Irish people were genuinely fleeing persecution and famine when most of them were emigrating.

So everyone after the famine was an economic refugee then? According to you they should then be sent back.

There is simply no comparison with migration from the present-day developing world, where there is generally no persecution, famine or war

There is NO persecution, famine or war in the developing world - #boggle#

Memnoch

Another black day for ireland has arisen. Today while walking down the street, I saw a man that was obviously muslim. He had a long beard, wore a long white robe and had a funny cap on his head. He musta been a muslim.

First of all I find it extremely offensive that he was wearing a long white robe, as those clothes are strictly bedroom wear. Next thing we know everyone will be naked and our children will be shooting each other in the streets.

Secondly, this man waved "hello" to me in a friendly manner. I find this even more worisome. its only a matter of time before he tries to convert me to his religon. Before we know it, the country will be full of people like him, and they will be knocking on YOUR door, yes Y O U R door, trying to turn you into one of them. With current trends continuing, we will begin to see mosques burst up throguhout the beautiful scenery of this country. The first town to fall to this unstoppable evil will be Monaghan. As all evidence clearly shows the horrendeous imbalance of population that is already occuring there!

So unless you all want to learn arabic and start reaing the Kuran. I highly reccomend we stop this now while we can, while this country is still free and democratic!

Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children? LONG LIVE hitl... I mean Bush!!!!

GuanYin

Dear Arcadegame,

You seem to harbour some naive ideas about the Irish health system, university funding and immigrants (more so when you merge the three).

Could you please address my curiosity as per post 91 in this thread?

ionapaul

syke wrote:

Excuse me? What makes you think the newly inducted EU citizens will be any more inclined to work the crappy jobs that Irish people won't work now that they have EU rights here?

I can tell you that all of the cleaning staff in my office building are Eastern Europeans from the new EU countries. There is no doubt in my mind that be they EU citizens or not, those coming from poorer countries will work those jobs our long-term unemployed think they are too good for.

I saw the same thing in America with the H1Bs - some pro-immigration people said, nonsense, once they are here legally they will work for the same salary as any other American programmer. Absolute rubbish, every H1B programmer I knew was willing to work slightly longer hours for slightly less than their American counterparts.

I am very much in favour of economic immigration, but don't fool yourself that just because Eastern Europeans can now work here legally they will avoid the crappy pay and terrible conditions that the Irish refuse.

GuanYin

ionapaul wrote:

I can tell you that all of the cleaning staff in my office building are Eastern Europeans from the new EU countries.

Just out of curiosity. Which EU countries specifically?

ionapaul

syke wrote:

Just out of curiosity. Which EU countries specifically?

Latvia and Lithuania. Their English is fairly poor so I imagine the range of jobs available to them here is very limited.

jbkenn

arcadegame2004 wrote:

As far as most Irish people are concerned, an asylum-seeker should only be considered genuine if Ireland was the first safe country they entered after leaving their home country - assuming they come from a country where they were in danger in the first place. In the event that the "asylum-seeker" comes from a safe country, then I say send them home and let them apply for a work-permit, instead of trying to deceive the Irish state into thinking they are refugees. The UN Refugee Convention 1951 was not written to facilitate economic-migration under the disguise of fleeing war, famine, or persecution.

I agree with your point on travel, try getting a direct flight from Dublin to Lagos, however, when they arrive, they are entitled to be treated with dignity and afforded all the rights and entitlements the State is obliged to provide under international law. They are in effect held in open prison, and, the boredom from lack of something to do, must be debilitating.
We all like to "do nothing" but try it for months on end.

Someone here said that the work-permit system should not tie a worker to an employer. I am open to listening to suggestions on what kind of system advocates of this point of view would like to replace the existing system. I personally feel that non-EU workers coming to Ireland should only be allowed to work in industries experiencing labour-shortages, so as to minimise foreign labour-competition with Irish job-seekers. Charity begins at home is a good saying indeed, and we should remember that. The No.1 priority for a government has to be the welfare of its own people. There is nothing racist about that. There is everything patriotic about that.

There have been many instances of abuse of the present system. I personally have witnessed this, and it is to our shame, where highly educated and qualified people are tied to menial jobs, because the employer holds the work permit. They are "obliged" to stay in employer nominated housing and "obliged" to pay extortinate rent and service charges, which are deducted from their wages at source, i.e company renting house for €650 per month, 5 employee's paying €250 per month each to company, if they complain they are fired and sent home.
Ireland of the welcomes my ar$e
With regard to your claim that they should only be allowed to do menial work so as not to "take" jobs from Irish people, Ireland is at the moment experiencing "full employment" which means our unemployment rate is less than 5% of the workforce, those Irish people who are unable to find work, have no one to blame only themselves. If you want a job you will find a job.
Question? why do so many long term unemployed males in urban areas own Toyota Dyna pickup trucks?

On the claims that multiculturalism "can only benefit Ireland", I cannot fully agree. This sort of statement has a tone of inevitability about it, but that doesn't make it inevitable.

Not too interested in "multiculturalism" myself, "when in Rome do as the Romans do".

The kind of multiculturalism that I am determined we must stop from arriving on these shores is that seen in Britain recently where Muslim immigrants have waged a campaign of threats to stop ads for Desperate Housewifes and other soaps from being shown near Mosques. These are the kind of nutters I am so concerned about, determined to ram theocracy down our Western throats. Haven't we spent long enough trying to throw off the yoke or church domination without it being returned to this isle through Islamic migration? I am sorry but come on now, we all know (or should) how widespread religious fanaticism, often of a violent bent, is in the Arab world, and the Muslim world generally. I think that Turkey is probably an exception to this, but in general my point holds. I am not tarring all Muslims with the one brush, but there is clearly a greater risk of terrorism and an assault on the secular state arising from Muslim migration from most Muslim countries. We need to bear this in mind when framing our immigration policy.

I would concur with their objections to advertising of garbage television programmes, garbage is garbage is garbage, however I also have deep concerns about certain aspects of Sharia law, and most Sub Saharan illegals claim they are fleeing persecution under Sharia law

But the nations of Europe are different from the "New World" countries of North American, South America, Australia and New Zealand. You need to realise that. These countries were built on immigration and so ethnicity is not part of their national identities. Like it or not, Ireland and Europe are generally differerent. And regarding migration to Britain, it's hardly like Irish people were ever going to outnumber the British. And anyway, both our countries are rich now so neither of us will flood into each others countries in a manner likely to place our respective hjealth-services under intolerable strain. Irish people were genuinely fleeing persecution and famine when most of them were emigrating. There is simply no comparison with migration from the present-day developing world, where there is generally no persecution, famine or war, and even if there were, fleeers would long since arrive in another safe, or EU country, LONG before arriving in Ireland. So let's not be so gullable as to believe that denying immigrants entry to Ireland will lead to almost certain death/circumcision/torture, OK? :rolleyes:

Which is why we need a properly thought out immigration policy

I think a certain degree of multiculturalism is acceptable. I believe in tolerance but I am utterly and doggedly opposed to those views expressed on this forum by posters calling for even more liberal immigration-policies. I strongly advise those to think through thoroughly the long term consequences for the Irish health-service, welfare-state and race relations. The rise of the Far Right across mainland Europe tells a story of what happens when governments get ahead of their people on immigration policy.

The rise of far right and racist problems in all countries is due to fear, born out of ignorance, and preyed on by people with their own warped agenda

jbkenn

mike65

Teneka may I point you to www.stormfront.org as a location more appropriate for your world view.

Mike.

heggie

i dont agree with the first poster, and i am not defending him, his views are a bit.... yeh, anyway just back to the point of irish emigrating to america. The irish were NOT welcomed by open arms in america, signs such as ' irish need not apply' where commonplace and ever hear of a paddywaggon? - the name given to cop cars as there were always so many irish in them. We shouldnt treat people who come to work here the same as we were treated in other countries.

ionapaul

jbkenn wrote:

With regard to your claim that they should only be allowed to do menial work so as not to "take" jobs from Irish people, Ireland is at the moment experiencing "full employment" which means our unemployment rate is less than 5% of the workforce, those Irish people who are unable to find work, have no one to blame only themselves. If you want a job you will find a job.
Question? why do so many long term unemployed males in urban areas own Toyota Dyna pickup trucks?

Agreed 100%. Remember that if our unemployment rate is at 5%, a good 1% of those will be moving jobs, waiting for a job to start, etc, and whose inclusion on the live register is a short-lived thing.

I always laugh at the 'help our own' spokespeople - I don't give a rat's ass about those unwilling to motivate themselves to get ahead in our inner cities, I care far more about the lives of those enterprising foreigners willing to move here and work hard to build a better life for themselves and their families. Give me a 'Pedro' over an 'Anto' any day

Not too interested in "multiculturalism" myself, "when in Rome do as the Romans do".

Also agree with you here. There are certain sacrifices you make when deciding to leave your homeland to build a better life for yourself - that said, whatever we can adopt / re-use / adapt from other cultures that will enrich ours, lets do it. Melting pot is what I'm thinking of, I suppose.

The rise of far right and racist problems in all countries is due to fear, born out of ignorance, and preyed on by people with their own warped agenda

jbkenn

Blaming immigration for the increase of racism is like blaming mini skirts for an increase in rape.

GuanYin

ionapaul wrote:

Latvia and Lithuania. Their English is fairly poor so I imagine the range of jobs available to them here is very limited.

Thats a rather different scenario, thats just skills base rather than "taking any job the can get". English is a skill required for many jobs.

arbeitsscheuer

Memnoch wrote:

Secondly, this man waved "hello" to me in a friendly manner. I find this even more worisome. its only a matter of time before he tries to convert me to his religon. Before we know it, the country will be full of people like him, and they will be knocking on YOUR door, yes Y O U R door, trying to turn you into one of them. With current trends continuing, we will begin to see mosques burst up throguhout the beautiful scenery of this country. The first town to fall to this unstoppable evil will be Monaghan. As all evidence clearly shows the horrendeous imbalance of population that is already occuring there!

Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children? LONG LIVE hitl... I mean Bush!!!!

Absolutely inspired...

Memnoch: Taking political satire to the next level!

On the subject, I think we could do wit a few thousand more immigrants - should water down the percentage of the population who are skangers/thugs/racists/Michael McDowell...

ionapaul

syke wrote:

Thats a rather different scenario, thats just skills base rather than "taking any job the can get". English is a skill required for many jobs.

Be that as it may, I can personally guarantee to you (and you can take it to the bank!) that poorer immigrants, 100% legal to work here and with adequate English, will consider menial jobs that our unemployed look down their noses at. It's just the way of the world - lets not kid ourselves that this does not happen.

GuanYin

ionapaul wrote:

Be that as it may, I can personally guarantee to you (and you can take it to the bank!) that poorer immigrants, 100% legal to work here and with adequate English, will consider menial jobs that our unemployed look down their noses at. It's just the way of the world - lets not kid ourselves that this does not happen.

As you statement stands, I think it can be classed as nothing more than your opinion seeing as you can offer nothing to substantiate your claim bar anecdotal evidence.

That said, I think that while *many* Irish people consider themselves too good to work certain jobs, I think the same holds true for many immigrants. On the flip side plent of Irish people are happy to work jobs that others would class as undesirable and there are many immigrants (and by this I mean asians, africans, eastern europeans, central europeans, english, american and australian etc etc) who are happy to take them. What does this prove? Nothing.

What I will say is that many Irish people have a high standard of education as college has become the norm here now. But there are plenty of Irish people working in the services department in the facilities I work in.

ionapaul

But, but...I said you can take it to the bank?! And you still doubt me?

Almost everything said on boards is personal opinion and nothing more - I've been an economic migrant myself and that is what I am basing my opinion on. We'll have to agree to disagree

GuanYin

ionapaul wrote:

But, but...I said you can take it to the bank?! And you still doubt me?

Almost everything said on boards is personal opinion and nothing more - I've been an economic migrant myself and that is what I am basing my opinion on. We'll have to agree to disagree

I tend to try and state opinion as opinion and fact as fact.

As such I have little interest in opinion being portrayed as fact (or indeed vice versa).

Teneka

Couldn't get on this board for the last few days, busy with college and all that.

Shouldn't political policy be the one that matters here?

Don't forget what their politicial affiliation is in most cases. A communist Ireland? Great idea eh.


Figures given by a poster were from 2002. Thanks for that. It's actually 2005.


I believe that we are losing our national identity bit by bit. Be it in the workplace, language, sport etc. Trying to order a taxi last night was a difficult enough task when normally it would be a simple job. Same goes for ringing computer companies, such as Dell. I spent 40 mins one day on the phone, 40 mins trying to understand their attempt at the language. I've no doubt that they knew their work, but not being able to communicate this was where the problem lied. Go to shops, supermarkets, pubs etc...their grasp of the language is poor.

My previous job tended to employ a number of foreigners. They're easy to boss around, get silly jobs to do (seriously, I've seen employers getting them to do the most needless of jobs), and are working far more hours than your average employee. In my job, if the company needed extra staff for a day, they were enclined to call in the foreigner to work rather than me. Once again, easy to boss around. Same with breaks and all that, Irish people will know their rights, foreigners are not so aware.


Don't forget that some of this money goes back to their homeplace where it is 'needed'. In countries like Nigeria, Russia etc...Needed??? Come on...

bonkey

Teneka wrote:

In countries like Nigeria, Russia etc...Needed??? Come on...

Come one, what?

Are you trying to tell me that the common man or woman in these countries, being sent cash from their partner/son/daughter who's got a job abroad :

a) doesn't need it
or
b) has no entitlement to it because it was earned in Ireland?

jc

CJhaughey

Teneka wrote:

I've no doubt that they knew their work, but not being able to communicate this was where the problem lied. Go to shops, supermarkets, pubs etc...their grasp of the language is poor. So it would appear is yours.
they were enclined you mean inclined? Maybe you are studying English as a 2nd language? and this is an elaborate windup?

Don't forget that some of this money goes back to their homeplace where it is 'needed'. In countries like Nigeria, Russia etc...Needed??? Come on...

Yep thats right they don't need money in other countries.
No Irish person ever sent money back from anywhere else in the world , right?
You are able to attend college primarily because foreign students subsidise you.
Do you ever feel guilty about spouting this kind of racist rhetoric knowing that other nations are supporting your education?

Meh

Teneka wrote:

Couldn't get on this board for the last few days, busy with college and all that.

I hope you're aware that your education is heavily subsidized by the foreign students who pay up to €20k a year in fees.

Figures given by a poster were from 2002. Thanks for that. It's actually 2005.

OK then, let's see your figures from 2005 (or any other year) proving that there are more Chinese than British in this country. 2002 is the year the last census was taken, if you have any more recent figures I'll gladly accept them.

My previous job tended to employ a number of foreigners. They're easy to boss around, get silly jobs to do (seriously, I've seen employers getting them to do the most needless of jobs), and are working far more hours than your average employee.

You mean to tell me that these foreigners are actually working hard? My god, this is clearly a grave threat to Irish culture! We must act now, before this "work" you speak of destroys our unique national identity!

sceptre

fragile wrote:

Dev was the first Taoiseach and went on to become the third President after Seán T. O'Kelly. He was born in New York in 192 to an Irish mother.

Spectre what is the Spanish bit that you are referring to?

Juan Vivion de Valera (Eamon's dad) was Spanish.

sceptre

Teneka wrote:

Same goes for ringing computer companies, such as Dell. I spent 40 mins one day on the phone, 40 mins trying to understand their attempt at the language.

That might be because like many other tech companies they've moved a lot of their tech support to India. Indian people living in India and working in India. Not Indian people living in Ireland and working in Ireland. Try ringing Sky. You'll get India or Scotland.