Happy with the number of immigrants in Ireland?

A Dub in Glasgo

And have you ever tried to decipher a broad Glaswegian accent in full flow, it is hard I tell ya

the_syco

sceptre wrote:

That might be because like many other tech companies they've moved a lot of their tech support to India. Indian people living in India and working in India. Not Indian people living in Ireland and working in Ireland. Try ringing Sky. You'll get India or Scotland.

Or, more likely, you got an Indian dude on the phone, in an Irish support centre.

I HATE every single one of them that come here looking for asylum. Why Ireland? Is it because they won't be accepted elsewhere, that Ireland is the first country that they come to, even though you have to pass through another country to get to us?

If you come here to work, hi. Hope you enjoy yourself. Have a nice day.

If you come here to sponge, may your arse get a rash and your arms shrink so that you can't scrath it.

[EDIT]

growler wrote:

I always find it utterly bizzare that Irish people have the cheek to complain about immigration given our own history of mass immigration in the distant and not-too distant past. I saw on BBC news last night that the Irish still account for the largest number of immigrants in the UK, us Irish are no longer providing the unskilled labour that we traditionally did to England but the descendants of the 1940's/ 50's immigrants are now contributing to the economy at every level as are our exported graduates. I would fully expect that the descendants of our current immigrants will strive to better their lot in the future and benefit our economy in the process.

And how much money did the Irish get back then? None, hmm?

Also, if we did the same as the asylum seekers, we'd end up in Spain, as our "first" country, but we didn't. We went to the first country we got to, and not travel through 3 or 4 countries first.

doodle_sketch wrote:

And in doing so send home legitimate asylum seekers simply becuase we skimmed over their papers while in the process of looking for even more people to deport?

What we should do is have more people working the cases and more offices for people to be able to go to. There needs to be a proper agency running the whole thing.

Or have rules set in place like France and Germany, etc.

jbkenn wrote:

they are entitled to be treated with dignity and afforded all the rights and entitlements the State is obliged to provide under international law

Would that be the same law that gives the minimum to asylum-seekers in France and Germany, so that they are no longer "welcoming" countries, so they come to milk our system?

mike65 wrote:

Teneka may I point you to www.stormfront.org as a location more appropriate for your world view.

Sadly, we can never have an open discussion on immigration, as someone will just stand up, shout "racists", and the rest of the discussion will focus on how the people are all right wing facists, instead of discussing where these idea's come from, and how we can curb such "racist" idea's, by infomation, and not by goverment sponsored propaganda.

Teneka wrote:

Don't forget that some of this money goes back to their homeplace where it is 'needed'. In countries like Nigeria, Russia etc...Needed??? Come on...

The Chinese get payed 3 times what they get at home, here. So if they send back half their money, that can easily support their family back home. This I learned from working alongside Chinese in a pub job. Mostly, they pick up the basic language in 1 month, decent language in 6 months, and near-mother tongue in 12 months. I've met well over 70 chinese people who can speak english. I've only met one Irsih person who can speak chinese.
[/EDIT]

jbkenn

Teneka wrote:

Don't forget that some of this money goes back to their homeplace where it is 'needed'. In countries like Nigeria, Russia etc...Needed??? Come on...

When you are in college tomorrow, ask how many of your lecturers would work fo $46 dollars a month, because, thats what the husband of a work collegaue of my wife earns.

jbkenn

arcadegame2004

Blaming immigration for the increase of racism is like blaming mini skirts for an increase in rape.

Mini-skirts don't cause someone to lose their jobs to cheap-labour, as far as I know.

Immigration from rich countries is okay because they won't have the pull-factor to flood into Ireland. From the Third World, it needs strict controls. It took decades for Germany to end up woth 10% of its population being non-national, while it has happened here in just 7 years. It is no secret that public-pressure was responsible for the German Government's decision to restrict immigration from the new EU member states. Ireland and Britain are the only 2 EU Western states without such restrictions, and I personally feel that opens the door to a disproportionate amount of cheap labour. If all the Western EU states allow free movement from the new EU states, then I will support Ireland doing so however.

the_syco

arcadegame2004 wrote:

It took decades for Germany to end up woth 10% of its population being non-national

So many factors, you forget... such as the one child policy that they had, to curb an excessive population.. and it did such a good job, that now the German goverment will give couple's incentive's to have more than one child!

pete

arcadegame2004 wrote:

It took decades for Germany to end up woth 10% of its population being non-national, while it has happened here in just 7 years.

That's odd. See, I have all these strange memories of eating in chinese restaurants & getting bags of chips from Macari's prior to 1998.

Maybe it was all a dream.


edit: come to think of it, i'm pretty sure i saw a black man in town one day in the 80's too.

edit2:

Foreigners, Dec. '99**:
7,336,100, +0.3% from Dec. '98, or 8.9% of the population.
From:
Turkey: 2,053,560
former Yugoslavia: 737,200
Italy: 615,900
Greece: 364,400
Africa: 305,300
Poland: 291,700
Croatia: 214,000
Austria: 186,100
Bosnia-Herzegovina: 167,700
Portugal: 132,600
Spain: 131,000
United States: 112,000
Iran: 116,500
Vietnam: 85,400

Naturalized citizens, 2000:
186,700 foreigners, +30% over 1999 (143,300),
By nationality:
82,800 (or 44%) from Turkey
14,400 (or 7.7%) from Iran
9,800 (or 5%) from Yugoslavia (Serbia, Montenegro)
5,700 (or 3%) from Lebanon
5,000 (or 2.7%) from Morocco
4,800 (or 2.6%) from Afghanistan
4,600 (or 2.5%) from Russian Federation
4,600 (or 2.5%) from Sri Lanka
4,500 (or 2.4%) from Vietnam
4,000 (or 2%) from Bosnia, Herzegovina

Source: http://www.germany-info.org/relaunch/info/facts/society.html

Raskolnikov

the_syco wrote:

Sadly, we can never have an open discussion on immigration, as someone will just stand up, shout "racists", and the rest of the discussion will focus on how the people are all right wing facists, instead of discussing where these idea's come from, and how we can curb such "racist" idea's, by infomation, and not by goverment sponsored propaganda.

Hear, hear!

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

It took decades for Germany to end up woth 10% of its population being non-national, while it has happened here in just 7 years.

I think Pete has already pointed out the problems with your calculations there sunshine, so I'd like you to do one of two things:

• provide proof that before 1998 there were no non-nationals resident in Ireland, or
• retract the statement

mike65

the_syco wrote:

...such as the one child policy that they had, to curb an excessive population.. and it did such a good job, that now the German goverment will give couple's incentive's to have more than one child!

WTF!?

Mike.

pete

arcadegame2004 wrote:

It took decades for Germany to end up woth 10% of its population being non-national, while it has happened here in just 7 years.

Hang on a minute. Are you saying that, regardless of how long it took, 10% of the Irish population is "non-national"?

Where are you getting that figure from?

The 2002 Census gives a total of "Non Irish 224,261" under "Persons, males and females, usually resident and present in the State on Census night classified by nationality 2002".

That's not 10% of 3,584,975.

therecklessone

pete wrote:

Hang on a minute. Are you saying that, regardless of how long it took, 10% of the Irish population is "non-national"?

Where are you getting that figure from?

The 2002 Census gives a total of "Non Irish 224,261" under "Persons, males and females, usually resident and present in the State on Census night classified by nationality 2002".

That's not 10% of 3,584,975.

Sssshhhh, don't let the truth get in the way of a good soundbite... :rolleyes:

sackville

Nuttzz wrote:

So long as people come to work we should welcome them, its the spongers that we dont want. If someone applies for asylum they should be given permission to work while their application is been processed. its better haviving them contribute to the state than living off it. This of course begs the question, how can immigrants get jobs yet our so called long term unemployed cant.

The long term unemployed are often in regions starved of investment, or maybe they are discriminated against because they are longterm unemployed, Or perhaps because the welfare sytem is a disincentive 4 them to sign off, or that employers rather mallible foreigners over bolshie natives or that the 'system' prefers to have the whole world compete with each other in the lowskill end of the market with migrant labour and employers as the winners, native low skilled as the loser- just some other ways of seeing things.

sackville

[QUOTE=Frank Grimes

I also find it hard to believe that you are suggesting that immigration will somehow screw up a united Ireland, who exactly are you trying to pander to with garbage like that?
E] I'd agree with AG2004
Many of the ethnic groups IME in the North,particulary those of South Asian origin, are strongly inclined to support the Union in General.

sackville

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Mini-skirts don't cause someone to lose their jobs to cheap-labour, as far as I know.

Immigration from rich countries is okay because they won't have the pull-factor to flood into Ireland. From the Third World, it needs strict controls. It took decades for Germany to end up woth 10% of its population being non-national, while it has happened here in just 7 years. It is no secret that public-pressure was responsible for the German Government's decision to restrict immigration from the new EU member states. Ireland and Britain are the only 2 EU Western states without such restrictions, and I personally feel that opens the door to a disproportionate amount of cheap labour. If all the Western EU states allow free movement from the new EU states, then I will support Ireland doing so however.

Too true again AG. Its also significant that Ireland and Britain have the amongst the most 'liberal' ecomonies of the old 15. must mean something.

I personally voted FOR nice 2 because I foolishly believed that ALL the 15 would open their labour market to the new members.

sackville

pete wrote:

Hang on a minute. Are you saying that, regardless of how long it took, 10% of the Irish population is "non-national"?

Where are you getting that figure from?

The 2002 Census gives a total of "Non Irish 224,261" under "Persons, males and females, usually resident and present in the State on Census night classified by nationality 2002".

That's not 10% of 3,584,975.

2002 is a long time ago now. we are still experiencing a net increase in migration(in fact ireland has since the mid-90s)
10s of thousands from the new EU states have entered since May 1 last and there is a constant influx of 'asylum seekers' ,'students' and other migrants.

anyone with a mind for logic must agree with Ag2004 and share concerns on the impact of this high rate and rapid influx into such a relatively small, socially unequal, and up to this ,homogenous country-paricularly its on the culture, society, environment, infrastrucure, services, resourses and the ecomonic impact particularly on the growing gap between the 'haves' and have nots'.
sadly Ireland is in the hands of moral bullies who seem to delight in smearing anyone who questioNs their 'right on' ( and often suprficial) orthodoxy with the dreaded 'R'-word.

sceptre

the_syco wrote:

Or, more likely, you got an Indian dude on the phone, in an Irish support centre.

I notice arcadegame didn't bother his ass to answer my basic question above so I'll toss out something similar for yours:

More likely? Can you name any of these companies that are hiring Indian dudes in such quantities that it's more likely (your words, not mine) that you'll get an Indian dude on the phone in an Irish call centre rather than an Indian dude in an Indian call centre (especially for companies like Dell that have relocated the bulk of their call centre operations to India but even for those that are 100% Irish-located)?


I get bored with the growing tendency of people here to base an argument (on any topic, on any side, some of which I may have sympathy for and other I don't) on the evidence that "it's obvious to anyone with eyes" or "people think" or "it's more likely" when, without evidence of some sort, it's no such thing. It wasn't always so - it was once more likely that people would go to the efort of getting off their arses and providing a few links of interest (not necessarily to back up every single word, just something of interest). Lately, people are too darned lazy it would seem.

I'm not bothering to argue with your point (I generally find this topic even worse than that conflict in the northeast part of the island one for generating extreme crapola on both sides with no possible resolution due to obstinacy), I just need someone to toss out a few bones to the group. Otherwise, we're really wasting our time.

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by Sceptre * provide proof that before 1998 there were no non-nationals resident in Ireland, or
* retract the statement

Oh come on! Where did I say that "No" foreigners lived in Ireland prior to 1998? I never said it. Therefore I need not prove it.

With all due respect, have you ever heard of figures of speech Sceptre? The thrust of my point on "since 1998" was that the great bulk of the immigration by foreigners to Ireland occurred since the late 1990's. This is a fact. And yes, thank you Sackville for educating those who seem to think that statistics stay the same for years, by reminding pro-mass-migrationists that 2002 was over 2 years ago.

billy the squid

That might be because like many other tech companies they've moved a lot of their tech support to India. Indian people living in India and working in India. Not Indian people living in Ireland and working in Ireland. Try ringing Sky. You'll get India or Scotland.

sky have had their call centre in scotland for donkeys years. its an english company. thats going back to the day when you had to ring an 01 number to get through to them.

pete

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Oh come on! Where did I say that "No" foreigners lived in Ireland prior to 1998? I never said it. Therefore I need not prove it.

In case there's any confusion - you said it here:

arcadegame2004 wrote:

It took decades for Germany to end up woth 10% of its population being non-national, while it has happened here in just 7 years.

With all due respect, have you ever heard of figures of speech Sceptre? The thrust of my point on "since 1998" was that the great bulk of the immigration by foreigners to Ireland occurred since the late 1990's. This is a fact.

Source please.

And yes, thank you Sackville for educating those who seem to think that statistics stay the same for years, by reminding pro-mass-migrationists that 2002 was over 2 years ago.

If either of you have a more recent census i'd just love to see it.

pete

sackville wrote:

2002 is a long time ago now. we are still experiencing a net increase in migration(in fact ireland has since the mid-90s)
10s of thousands from the new EU states have entered since May 1 last and there is a constant influx of 'asylum seekers' ,'students' and other migrants.

Source(s) please.

anyone with a mind for logic must agree with Ag2004

Ehhh, no.

and share concerns on the impact of this high rate and rapid influx

Sources please (specifically, re: "high rate" and "rapid influx")

into such a relatively small, socially unequal, and up to this ,homogenous country-paricularly its on the culture, society, environment, infrastrucure, services, resourses and the ecomonic impact particularly on the growing gap between the 'haves' and have nots'.

Specific examples of this "impact", please.

sadly Ireland is in the hands of moral bullies who seem to delight in smearing anyone who questioNs their 'right on' ( and often suprficial) orthodoxy with the dreaded 'R'-word.

If it walks like a duck etc. etc. etc.

MrPudding

Teneka wrote:

Same goes for ringing computer companies, such as Dell. I spent 40 mins one day on the phone, 40 mins trying to understand their attempt at the language. I've no doubt that they knew their work, but not being able to communicate this was where the problem lied.

I would imagine that you were speaking to someone in Bangalore (spelling?) in India. So...... if you had have been talking to a native English speaker HE would have been taking the job from an Indian. As we know you do not beleive in foreigners taking jobs from locals. Dell does hire foreign people for their call centres in Dublin. However, if you phone the UK / Ireland support line you are unlikely to speak to one of them as they generally support their home country.

MrP

(Sorry Sceptre, just read your post.)

pete

Oh and while we're on the subject, I'd like to have some clarification on who exactly you're classifying as a "non-national" when you're working out your percentages.

Out of the 224,261 non-nationals documented in the 2002 Census, 103,476 were from the UK and 15,383 were from the USA (i.e. over 50%).

Do you want them all sent home too?

landser

the_syco wrote:

So many factors, you forget... such as the one child policy that they had, to curb an excessive population.. and it did such a good job, that now the German goverment will give couple's incentive's to have more than one child!

the what????

germany has never had a one child policy!!! for a start, they lost c. 8% of their population in the two wars

anyway. having been away for a few days, i've had a chance to read through this entire thread. i have also read through a number of similar topics. it seems to me that if anyone on boards dares to criticise the amount of immigration into this state, they are immediately lambasted as a racist and a bigot. i want to limit immigration, but i'm no a racist. (i'm just as against letting to many norwegians or swiss into the country as i am against nigerians or chileans).
the posts thereafter are not so much a debate as a witchhunt against dissenters from the liberal view. boards is not representative of the views of the majority of this country, who voted overwhelmingly in last years referendum to curb immigration, although that decision was heavily criticised on boards.

fact is, all the parties in this state, apart from the fringe and labour, want to curb immigration. i support this and no amount of liberal wringing of hands and and shouts of "for shame" will change that!
Isn't great to live in a country where three of the five biggest parties in the state are right wing

Meh

landser wrote:

i want to limit immigration, but i'm no a racist. (i'm just as against letting to many norwegians or swiss into the country as i am against nigerians or chileans).
the posts thereafter are not so much a debate as a witchhunt against dissenters from the liberal view. boards is not representative of the views of the majority of this country, who voted overwhelmingly in last years referendum to curb immigration, although that decision was heavily criticised on boards.

fact is, all the parties in this state, apart from the fringe and labour, want to curb immigration. i support this and no amount of liberal wringing of hands and and shouts of "for shame" will change that!

Straw man. I haven't noticed anyone in this thread arguing for "unrestricted immigration/open borders". I don't think we're being "overrun by refugee scroungers" (or whatever the latest Evening Herald headline is), but all the same I believe we should have a controlled, fair, humane immigration/asylum policy that meets the needs of our economy and our obligations under international law.

ionapaul

I'd be more worried about our homegrown scroungers than any foreign influx, tbh*. If we could arrange a one-for-one exchange of our own scroungers with eager Chinese immigrants, I'd be happy.

*I have no proof, internet link or otherwise, to back up the above statement!

pickarooney

If you exported all the scangers, the reputation of the Irish would be indelibly stained forever, and it would be hard to blame any government that subsequently introduced laws barring immigration from Ireland.

landser

Meh wrote:

Straw man. I haven't noticed anyone in this thread arguing for "unrestricted immigration/open borders". I don't think we're being "overrun by refugee scroungers" (or whatever the latest Evening Herald headline is), but all the same I believe we should have a controlled, fair, humane immigration/asylum policy that meets the needs of our economy and our obligations under international law.

did you actually read my post, or did you just kick the desk with a knee jerk reaction? i never said that the posters wanted open borders. have another look at the post and come back to me.

as for the Herald, makes excellent fodder for a kitty litter tray.... that's about it. and that straw man jibe, god, i nearly fell of fthe chair at that one.

Meh

landser wrote:

i never said that the posters wanted open borders.

So when you said that the Boards population was not representative of the majority view in favour of controlled/limited immigration, what exactly did you mean? If someone is against limits on immigration, as you are alleging we all are, they must be in favour of uncontrolled immigration!

MadsL

sadly Ireland is in the hands of moral bullies who seem to delight in smearing anyone who questioNs their 'right on' ( and often suprficial) orthodoxy with the dreaded 'R'-word.

Would that include people who actually are employers in Ireland who are calling for more relaxed immigration policy?

The Assistant Director of the Small Firms Association, Patricia Callan, has called on the government to recognise the key contribution that immigrants have made to the development of the Irish economy, and has stated that "after five years of significant immigration and fairly ad hoc immigration policy-making, it is now time for the government to develop a comprehensive policy, that is fair to all". "The ongoing indecisiveness on the part of the Government, with regard to immigration policy, has led to wide-scale confusion for employers."

"As a nation, we must realise that non-EU nationals are an addition to our workforce and are not displacing Irish workers. They have a legitimate expectation of joining Irish society in all its guises. What is now required, as a matter of urgency, is primary legislation that will set out rights and obligations on all sides, and which will encompass a more realistic, big picture approach to the issue of net migration".

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_100017.shtml

Hear, hear.

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Oh come on! Where did I say that "No" foreigners lived in Ireland prior to 1998? I never said it. Therefore I need not prove it.

Oh come on yourself.

You're own words:

arcadegame2004 wrote:

It took decades for Germany to end up woth 10% of its population being non-national, while it has happened here in just 7 years.

"it has happened here in just 7 years" implies that we went from zero to 10% in seven years. If you meant something else, then say it. Start by identifying the number of non-nationals resident in Ireland in 1998, then compare that figure to the 2005 figure (if you have any). Until then I'll take it you can't expand on your contention that we reached a figure of 10% non-nationals. in just 7 years.

Soundbites aren't enough anymore, I want proof.

[edit]In addition, I'd appreciate it if you credited me when you quote my posts, not sceptre[/edit]