Happy with the number of immigrants in Ireland?

landser

Meh wrote:

So when you said that the Boards population was not representative of the majority view in favour of controlled/limited immigration, what exactly did you mean? If someone is against limits on immigration, as you are alleging we all are, they must be in favour of uncontrolled immigration!

read my initial post please!!!

the point of my mail was that if anyone posts an arguement in favour of limiting (further or completely) immigration, that poster is immediately called a racist/bigot.

further, i didn't say that the boards population in its entirety was not representative of the majority. Boards is not representative of the majority view, but you cannot infer from my opinion that i believe that everyone on boards is contra the majority view! your inference is incorrect. i am part of the majority and i am also on boards, ergo.... who is this "we" you refer to anyway?

anyway, what i am trying to get across is my criticism of the lack of debate on the subject and the judgmentalism exhibited by many posters insofar that anti-immigration, in whatever shape or form, = racism.

Hobbes

landser wrote:

the point of my mail was that if anyone posts an arguement in favour of limiting (further or completely) immigration, that poster is immediately called a racist/bigot.

No that is not true at all. If you bother to go back through the comments from various people you will see they offer no good reason to why. Generally the reasons are...

- We will be a minority in our own country.
- They are all thieves/liars, etc.
- We don't mind EU people or US people but keep the Africans/Chinese/etc out.

The people citing it as a bad thing tend to interchange Asylum seekers, Refugees, students and people who have immigrated here as all being the same thing and pick the worst to prove a point.

landser

Hobbes wrote:

No that is not true at all. If you bother to go back through the comments from various people you will see they offer no good reason to why. Generally the reasons are...

- We will be a minority in our own country.
- They are all thieves/liars, etc.
- We don't mind EU people or US people but keep the Africans/Chinese/etc out.

The people citing it as a bad thing tend to interchange Asylum seekers, Refugees, students and people who have immigrated here as all being the same thing and pick the worst to prove a point.

i have bothered to go through them and have said that before. iam not defending the muppets here who call people **** gooks or coons, but i am taking exception to the lack of a reasoned debate.

seamus

landser wrote:

is there a point coming here....??

His point was there. Here on boards you'll find that although there is an immediate warning bell of "racist" when ever anyone goes on a rant about increasing immigration controls, it will usually turn out to be just, since it's very rare that anyone comes along, passionate about halting immigration, and can back up their arguments with reasoned, thought-through and logical debate.

If such a person does come along, they'll be treated with respect (by most).

oscarBravo

landser wrote:

boards is not representative of the views of the majority of this country, who voted overwhelmingly in last years referendum to curb immigration, although that decision was heavily criticised on boards.

There was a referendum to curb immigration?

Hobbes

landser wrote:

i have bothered to go through them

Doubtful, as I am referring to months of history some of the people have (eg. Arcadegame). We get stormfronters on but they generally leave after they get any hard questions or something they point is proven to be false.

You will also find that those arguing cite crap links or totally ignore any question that will prove they are full of it (the absolute majority, afair only one person has ever put forward a decent debate).

arcadegame2004

oscarBravo wrote:

There was a referendum to curb immigration?

Have you forgotten already?

bobbyjoe

Quote:
Originally Posted by oscarBravo
There was a referendum to curb immigration?



Have you forgotten already?

Thought it was to stop "citizenship tourism" or some such.


edit: wrote too instead of to Doh! v sorry!

aidan_walsh

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Have you forgotten already?

And here was me thinking that was about the right to citizenship, not work permits and asylum...

jhegarty

<my 2 cent>
anyone who is willing to work a 40 hour week for fair pay should be welcome in this country. and they should be let do it too , not be forced to live off state handouts.

any problems with room in the country and we can kick out the irish people who and unwilling (and i do mean unwilling not unable) to get a job.
</my 2 cent>

arcadegame2004

doodle_sketch wrote:

And here was me thinking that was about the right to citizenship, not work permits and asylum...

And who else but immigrants would be affected by it?

Victor

Teneka wrote:

Did you know that Asylum seekers, illegeal or not

All asylum seekers are legal. Learn the difference.

Teneka wrote:

Did you know that Asylum seekers, illegeal or not, still get 3 meals a day and a weekly wage?

Teneka wrote:

"Each adult will receive a personal allowance of 19.05 euro per week

When was €19.06 a weekly wage last?

I suppose it beats Ray Burke's €2.25 a week as a prison librarian.

syke wrote:

Yes bring in as many as possible, if nothing else it'll improve the food.

I can vouch for this, Polish girls are really tasty, a little like their cured herring, but it's not great the morning after.

pickarooney

Jazis, Stormfront has a strict immigration policy. They take a couple of days to review your application apparently. They have two randomly chosen sequences of letters (login/password) and a number (age) to go on... what exactly does the decision process go on?

gandalf

jhegarty wrote:

<my 2 cent>
anyone who is willing to work a 40 hour week for fair pay should be welcome in this country. and they should be let do it too , not be forced to live off state handouts.

any problems with room in the country and we can kick out the irish people who and unwilling (and i do mean unwilling not unable) to get a job.
</my 2 cent>

What he said

pete

pickarooney wrote:

Jazis, Stormfront has a strict immigration policy. They take a couple of days to review your application apparently. They have two randomly chosen sequences of letters (login/password) and a number (age) to go on... what exactly does the decision process go on?

last time i checked you could still post, but all posts were moderated until you prove you're one of them or something.

it's not entirely effective.

GuanYin

doodle_sketch wrote:

And here was me thinking that was about the right to citizenship, not work permits and asylum...

No I believe you will find that the wording of the referendum amendment referred to the right to citizenship, however what Bertie and his cronies had everyone believing they were voting for was the stopping of those nasty illegal foreigners taking our jobs and our women.....

arcadegame2004 wrote:

And who else but immigrants would be affected by it?

Why would immigrants be affected by asylum?

sceptre

arcadegame2004 wrote:

With all due respect, have you ever heard of figures of speech Sceptre?

I have but then you've incorrectly credited me as the person who pointed out that we didn't go from zero to oops in seven years so I couldn't care really as it's nowt to do with me.

While you're keeping my name in mind though, you could do worse than to answer the (completely different) question I've posted in this thread in reference to a post of yours a few pages ago that you've ignored. I won't ask you to retract it or anything as people will assume you made it up until you come up with something to support it.

mike65

the_syco wrote:

So many factors, you forget... such as the one child policy that they had, to curb an excessive population.. and it did such a good job, that now the German goverment will give couple's incentive's to have more than one child!

Syco will you please get back to us on this!

As for my crack directing the original poster to Stormfront, well
nothing he's said has shown my instinct to be wrong I think with selective stats, deliberate confusing of legal and illegal incomers, suggesting the sick and the elderly are worse off (yeah send all those darkie nurses home baby that'll help the elderly...) one line retorts etc. These threads follow a well defined path of debate argument, flameing, trolling and finally gratuitious quoting before its gets locked by Gandalf, any moment now.

Mike.

pete

mike65 wrote:

As for my crack directing the original poster to Stormfront, well
nothing he's said has shown my instinct to be wrong I think with selective stats, deliberate confusing of legal and illegal incomers, suggesting the sick and the elderly are worse off (yeah send all those darkie nurses home baby that'll help the elderly...) one line retorts etc. These threads follow a well defined path of debate argument, flameing, trolling and finally gratuitious quoting before its gets locked by Gandalf, any moment now.

Mike.

Our pal Teneka is quite familiar with Stormfront already http://www.stormfront.org/forum/search.php?do=finduser&userid=56110

GuanYin

pete wrote:

Our pal Teneka is quite familiar with Stormfront already http://www.stormfront.org/forum/search.php?do=finduser&userid=56110

But...but....surely Teneka couldn't be a racist, could he?

Seriously though, its disgraceful how they come over here, invade our boards, take advantage of our free sign up and un-moderated posting, use up our bandwidth and they never contribute anything to the conversation....

I say send em all back! We don't want them diluting boards culture.

pete

syke wrote:

But...but....surely Teneka couldn't be a racist, could he?

Dude! Attack the post, not the poster!

i have my suspicions

GuanYin

pete wrote:

Dude! Attack the post, not the poster!

i have my suspicions

I think you will find if you re-read, that I was actually defending him

I was suggesting he couldn't be.

Zombrex

arcadegame2004 wrote:

And who else but immigrants would be affected by it?

Define immigrant Arcade ... do you consider a child born here, raised here and who considers themselves Irish, an immigrant because their parents were? ANd if they are an immigrant what about their children. And their children's children

When do you stop being an immigrant and start being a member of our society Arcade?

You talk about immigrants as if they are something completely seperate from us. There are Irish people and there are immigrants. But as has been pointed out to you before there is no clear black and white line. I have friends with foreign parents who consider themselves completely Irish. I know of people who have worked here for most of their lives who consider themselves a part of our society. And I know of people who have been here only a few months who love it here and would love to stay and be a part of our society. By your narrow minded definition none of these people deserve to stay here, they will all destroy our culture or some other BS.

You seem to judge anyone who wants to come here, be they asylum seeker or immigrant, as someone who wants to hurt our culture or steal from our society. I feel sorry that you have such a narrow minded and fearful view on humanity as a whole, that you judge everyone with suspision and fear. I dont know what terrible experience you have had with foreign people that has made you feel like this

billy the squid

Same goes for ringing computer companies, such as Dell. I spent 40 mins one day on the phone, 40 mins trying to understand their attempt at the language. I've no doubt that they knew their work, but not being able to communicate this was where the problem lied.

dells phone support is based in Bray and Cherrywood. in wicklow and Dublin respectively.

BuffyBot

dells phone support is based in Bray and Cherrywood. in wicklow and Dublin respectively.

OT, some of it is..not all

arcadegame2004

Wicknight wrote:

Define immigrant Arcade ... do you consider a child born here, raised here and who considers themselves Irish, an immigrant because their parents were? ANd if they are an immigrant what about their children. And their children's children

When do you stop being an immigrant and start being a member of our society Arcade?

Well it could be argued that we are all part of global "society". That doesn't mean everyone should have limitless access to each others countries. How's that for an answer for you?

You talk about immigrants as if they are something completely seperate from us. There are Irish people and there are immigrants. But as has been pointed out to you before there is no clear black and white line. I have friends with foreign parents who consider themselves completely Irish. I know of people who have worked here for most of their lives who consider themselves a part of our society.

There is a very clear black and white line. If you come here from another country you are an immigrant. That's the definition, you know. What someone feels is not the point with respect to definition. I can have a dream that I am an albatross, but that doesn't make me one. I consider people with Irish citizenship to have a legitimate claim to stay here and consider themselves Irish. The citizenship-referendum that the Irish voters supported and resoundingly voted for sets the parameters for who does and doesn't have a legitimate claim to stay here due solely to birth, as far as I am concerned, and as far as most people are concerned.

And I know of people who have been here only a few months who love it here and would love to stay and be a part of our society. By your narrow minded definition none of these people deserve to stay here, they will all destroy our culture or some other BS.

I don't think in those sort of absolutes. They can stay here anyway under EU rules (though I feel all EU-15 members should apply the same rules, one way or the other, regarding immigration from the new EU-10). I would support ALL EU-15 members letting everyone in from the new EU member states. But I don't think our government is being fair to the Irish man and women looking for work to place us in the position of being one of just 2 Western EU states to let in unlimited numbers of migrants from the new EU 10. Let us all have the same rules, so that the burden of cheap labour and to our hospitals is shared between the 15 more fairly, and not all heaped on Ireland and Britain's shoulders.

You seem to judge anyone who wants to come here, be they asylum seeker or immigrant, as someone who wants to hurt our culture or steal from our society. I feel sorry that you have such a narrow minded and fearful view on humanity as a whole, that you judge everyone with suspision and fear. I dont know what terrible experience you have had with foreign people that has made you feel like this

No I don't automatically judge immigrants as all having negative intent. You can cause harm unintentionally, and you can intentionally cause it. Immigrants from rich countries are okay because they won't come in sufficient numbers to constitute a burden on the State/hospitals. The same cannot be said about the billions who would love to come here from the developing world who would compete on low-wages, (which is TRUE no matter what you say). You can say these people "do not intent" to cause problems. But it does cause problems, irrespective of the intention. I have had no terrible experience with foreigners but I want to make sure we look after our own people first and foremost and I will not apologise to anyone for this opinion.

GuanYin

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The same cannot be said about the billions who would love to come here .

ROFL

The "billions"....

You're a journo aren't you?

I can see the headlines

"Ireland at risk fo invasion by billions of foreigners"

Give it a rest. Why don't you just go away from boards and come back when you can put together some sort of credible argument with facts to back up what you're saying?

I for one am getting sick of seeing mammoth posts of tripe by you that ignore alll of the many many holes that people pick apart in your arguments while you continue to sprout your opinionated drivel that you want everyone else to take as fact.

arcadegame2004

My reference to billions simply acknowledges the fact that 80% of the world's population comes from the developing world. It is human-nature to want to become economically better-off and to deny this is just being naieve. I don't blame them for wanting to better their lot by coming to the West but unless there are some controls it will all end in tears and I take no pleasure in stating that fact.

Zombrex

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Well it could be argued that we are all part of global "society". That doesn't mean everyone should have limitless access to each others countries. How's that for an answer for you?

That is an answer to a question I didn't ask. For a start you are simply scaremongering with the idea that the alternative to you highly restrictive and damaging form of immigration control is complete limitless access to our country. Secondly what I asked was when, in your opinion, does an "immigrant" or the child of an immigrant (or a child of a child etc) stop being an "immigrant" and start being someone who is part of our society. When can they call themselves part of Irish society. I consider myself to be from Wicklow. I have lived there since I was 2 years old. By your logic I am not a Wicklowian, I am a Dub because i was born there. I should claim dole etc in Dublin and stop spounging off the "real" wicklow people.

arcadegame2004 wrote:

There is a very clear black and white line. If you come here from another country you are an immigrant. That's the definition, you know. What someone feels is not the point with respect to definition.

So a person born in England but raised in Ireland for the last 20 years is not a part of Irish society? They have no right to benefit? No right to call themselves Irish? They will and always will be an immigrant to our country? They will always be external to the true Irish people? What about their children? Not born to people you consider Irish citizens they to by your definition are not Irish, not part of Irish society. And their children? And their children? We are all Immigrants arcade. None of just appeared in Ireland. Who long do you feel someone has to be here until you allow them to consider themselves Irish, allow them to have the respect of the society they feel the belong to?

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I can have a dream that I am an albatross, but that doesn't make me one. I consider people with Irish citizenship to have a legitimate claim to stay here and consider themselves Irish. The citizenship-referendum that the Irish voters supported and resoundingly voted for sets the parameters for who does and doesn't have a legitimate claim to stay here due solely to birth, as far as I am concerned, and as far as most people are concerned.

So an immigrant is some who wasn't born here, and an Irish person is someone who was born here ...

but wait a minute ..

now an immigrant is someone who wasn't born here, and an Irish person is someone who was born here, UNLESS their parents were immigrants, in which case they are not Irish because they, even though they did exactly the same thing (being born here), don't have the right to consider themselves Irish because their parents made the mistake themselves of not being born here.

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Let us all have the same rules, so that the burden of cheap labour and to our hospitals is shared between the 15 more fairly, and not all heaped on Ireland and Britain's shoulders.

Has that happened?? God you are like the cult leader who preaches that the world will end unless you do blah blah blah. Arcade you just drum up the absolute worst event possible (i.e a billion people arrive at our ports) and then sit back as if that event proves your point. You have no idea if that is actually going to happen.

arcadegame2004 wrote:

No I don't automatically judge immigrants as all having negative intent.
...
The same cannot be said about the billions who would love to come here from the developing world who would compete on low-wages, (which is TRUE no matter what you say).

Again you show your racism. You think their are billions of people who would love to just drop everything they have, leave everyone they know and travel thousands of miles around the world to claim welfare in rainy dublin? The benefits are better in Sweden than here. Do you see a mass emmigration of Irish people to Sweden to claim the dole? I could probably get a better job in American than the one I have now. Do you seem me leaving everything I know to go to the states to get that job? No you don't. So why do you believe that people from Africa and Asia care more about money than family, friends and their own culture? Are they lesser people than us?

sackville

Wicknight wrote:

God you are like the cult leader who preaches that the world will end unless you do blah blah blah. Arcade you just drum up the absolute worst event possible (i.e a billion people arrive at our ports) and then sit back as if that event proves your point. You have no idea if that is actually going to happen.[QUOTE}



Well the primary 'Cultists' in Ireland these days are those of the open border fundamentalist school it seems-a fanatical intolerant movement greatly fuelled by this Country's rapid influx over the last decade, tacit back up from both Stae and business interests who use them as their useful idiots

They act as objective and reasoned but this is only a tactic to- a stick- to beat anyone who dares questions their patently irrational,illogical and near collective suicidal worldview.