Happy with the number of immigrants in Ireland?

Meh

sackville wrote:

Well the primary 'Cultists' in Ireland these days are those of the open border fundamentalist school it seems-a fanatical intolerant movement greatly fuelled by this Country's rapid influx over the last decade, tacit back up from both Stae and business interests who use them as their useful idiots

I'll ask again, who in this thread is advocating abolishing our border controls entirely and allowing completely unrestricted immigration?
Your argument is just a straw man.

pickarooney

Wicknight wrote:

The benefits are better in Sweden than here. Do you see a mass emmigration of Irish people to Sweden to claim the dole?

Do people realise that it's not actually possible to just move to an EU-state and draw unemployment benefit? In at least the majority of countries, dole is only available for a limited period and is dependent on having worked a minimum of six consecutive months full-time in the country.

sackville

Wicknight wrote:

That is an answer to a question I didn't ask. For a start you are simply scaremongering with the idea that the alternative to you highly restrictive and damaging form of immigration control is complete limitless access to our country. Secondly what I asked was when, in your opinion, does an "immigrant" or the child of an immigrant (or a child of a child etc) stop being an "immigrant" and start being someone who is part of our society. When can they call themselves part of Irish society. I consider myself to be from Wicklow. I have lived there since I was 2 years old. By your logic I am not a Wicklowian, I am a Dub because i was born there. I should claim dole etc in Dublin and stop spounging off the "real" wicklow people.[Quote}

well, why don't you ask some of the more vocal members the so-called anti-racist movement what form of immigration controls they favour?

The likes of the crypto-anarchist "Residents against Racism" believe in the illegality of ANY immigration controls as far as know. Yet they are never questioned on their extreme position but given a very easy ride by the pro-business, pro-immigration media.

the open border fundie prefer to confuse and bamboozle their opponents( which, on the whole is mainstream society) which again is a tactic to backheel everyone who oposes them and spares them the scrutiny that would expose them.

Can't see that honeymoon going on forever though-not even in Ireland- crap journalismville!

Zombrex

their patently irrational,illogical and near collective suicidal worldview.

For a start point out where people are calling for completely open borders.

Secondly point out why this is even irrational with out resorting to Arcades for of "billions will come". You don't even know that if there was a competely free border system that billions would come. I can go to France to work if I want, but you don't see me doing it. IF it were true half of Nigeria would already be here applying for asylum. Instead we get a very small handful of refugees.

Seriously, where exactly is this idea that we are (or will be) over run with refugees and immigrants come from, because the figures of what is actually happening do not back any of it up. And you are calling my view point illogical?

Zombrex

sackville wrote:

well, why don't you ask some of the more vocal members the so-called anti-racist movement what form of immigration controls they favour?

The likes of the crypto-anarchist "Residents against Racism" believe in the illegality of ANY immigration controls as far as know. Yet they are never questioned on their extreme position but given a very easy ride by the pro-business, pro-immigration media.

Oh please ... is that the best you got ... what are you taking politcal lessons from the Republicans ... you didn't even do it very well :rolleyes:..

Firstly you pick a small anti-racism group (one who's web page seems to appear to be down BTW .. very clever). Then, by calling them "crypto-anarchist" and saying they are against any form of immigration "as far as you know" you attempt to show them up as extremists (by your definition of what you believe the group is). You then go on to proclaim that this group has a huge following and support from big business (are you serious), by which you are attempting to ligitamise this group as a offical representative of a movement, purely so you can attempt to prove that this group will gain huge following if not stopped. So what you are doing is trying to drag people on this board into defending a group that you have already defined as being anarchists. In essence you are weighting your own question as to be unanswerable without the answer approving of anarchism and open borders.

This is exactly what the Republicans did in the run up to the Iraq war. Attempt to find the smallest most extreme group (i don't even know if the RAR as extreme as you claim). Then attempt to attach this group's views to the much wider anti-war movement, effectively painting them all with the same brush. Then all you have to do is demand that the rest of them defend the extermist views of the small small majority.

Sorry mate, I wasn't born yesterday....

I have no clue what the RAR offical position on immigration is. I have no idea if they believe in completely open borders. I very seriously doubt that they have a large business following on their open borders policy (if it even exists).

What I do know is that I am not a member of the RAR and that no one on this thread has called for open borders yet. When (if) someone does, debate them on it. Don't attempt to sully an argument that hasn't even been put forward yet.

pete

sackville wrote:

They act as objective and reasoned but this is only a tactic...

Sort of like when people from stormfront show up here and start asking questions about immigration, when what they really mean to say is "I DON'T LIKE DARKIES!"?

Yeah?

Anyway - any chance you could answer some of the questions i asked here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2312054&postcount=141?

Whenever suits yourself - i know you've probably got a backlog of questions you just haven't quite gotten around to answering yet.

Teneka

Sort of like when people from stormfront show up here and start asking questions about immigration, when what they really mean to say is "I DON'T LIKE DARKIES!"?

Making assumptions again are we? People with your attitude are pathetic. Always say the same things without even looking at the entire picture.


Open your eyes.

aidan_walsh

Teneka wrote:

Always say the same things without even looking at the entire picture.

Problem is, you have yet to tell us what that is!

Hobbes

Teneka wrote:

Always say the same things

Hello Kettle.

Seriously.. your comment is typical reply that we are all used to here. Which is.

Ignore the questions asked and then claim your argument has merit by attacking those who are name calling back.

How about ignoring the name callers and answering the questions instead? Think that is possible?

pete

Teneka wrote:

Making assumptions again are we? People with your attitude are pathetic. Always say the same things without even looking at the entire picture.

Assumptions? Are you saying that the Teneka posting on stormfront is a different person?

How's that league of irish patriots coming along?

BuffyBot

Open your eyes.

Ouch. The amount of irony in that statement is so big it hurts..

Teneka

Go on, shoot, I'm open to any questions. Just this board has been down the last few days, not blaming any of you lot though.

GuanYin

Scroll up there are plenty of questions, aimed right atyou in many cases, to be answered.

Of course I'm sure you knew that, because being the balanced and logical individual that you are you would have read every post in order to take on board everyones views to which you could make your above retorts.....

I mean, you MUST have actually bothered to read the posts with the arguments against you and the questions... surely?... eh?

Hobbes

Read back through the pages. I believe people asked you quite a few.

While the people who are asking the questions might not want it, I would also be intrested if you cite sources (not to debunk you or anything but to actually see where you are basing your opinion on. Plus gives me something to read).

Teneka

Just saw this post from an ill-informed poster.

You mean to tell me that these foreigners are actually working hard?

Think you missed the point of my post, but of course, I knew that you would aviod the 'slave labour' statement. Go in to pubs and clubs these days and you will find foreigners working in the bathrooms handing out soap and towels. You think that impresses people when they see that the club have jobs such as this going? Truely pathetic, no need for it etc. Their wages are low for that espeically and so they rely on tips and so on. Who tips them? Hard to say as people who use the toilets in clubs rarely wash their hands, and if they do wash them, its just a matter of putting a little water over them and they're gone.

Oh, by all means, welcome in the foreigners so they can hand out soap in a dirty old toilet.

GuanYin

Teneka wrote:

Who tips them? Hard to say as people who use the toilets in clubs rarely wash their hands, and if they do wash them, its just a matter of putting a little water over them and they're gone.

Ok, I'm gonna ask you to prove this.
In *my* personal experience most people wash their hands in pubs and clubs. I certainly do and generally there are less sinks than cubicles or urinals so generally you have to wait to wash your hands.

So how can you possibly state that "most people don't wash their hands" Do yo have figures to back this up or are you just making up stuff?

Oh, by all means, welcome in the foreigners so they can hand out soap in a dirty old toilet.

If they are willing to do the job, grand. Toilet attendant is a job that is usually only foundin the plusher clubs, pubs and bars in other countries. I'm quite happy to tip anyone working there, not so much because I feel obliged, but because the standard the toilets are kept in are much better and I feel I'm paying for this service.

Hobbes

Teneka wrote:

You think that impresses people when they see that the club have jobs such as this going? Truely pathetic, no need for it etc.

If you have been in the more expensive night clubs you would find this is the norm and has been going on for years. They are generally there to make sure you can take a pee without having to be swimming in others pee. As well as keep the place clean. Basically to make your experience more enjoyable.

Oh, by all means, welcome in the foreigners so they can hand out soap in a dirty old toilet.

You know these sort of comments isn't really adding to your debating skills.

Teneka

Naturally, you're going to defend this. No matter what is said, you'll defend it. I know the types.

So how can you possibly state that "most people don't wash their hands" Do yo have figures to back this up or are you just making up stuff?

So how can you possibly state that most people wash their hands? See what you've done now? Good.

Pubs serve alcohol, people tend to forget things while consuming some drink, and washing their hands isn't high on the priority list let me tell you.

Oh, and what makes you think that just the top pubs and clubs have people doing this sort of job? I've been to many pubs and venues that aren't the most repsected in town.

Meh

Teneka wrote:

Just saw this post from an ill-informed poster.

Since you're the one who thinks there are more Chinese than British in this country, I think it's you who is ill-informed.

Think you missed the point of my post, but of course, I knew that you would aviod the 'slave labour' statement. Go in to pubs and clubs these days and you will find foreigners working in the bathrooms handing out soap and towels. You think that impresses people when they see that the club have jobs such as this going? Truely pathetic, no need for it etc. Their wages are low for that espeically and so they rely on tips and so on. Who tips them? Hard to say as people who use the toilets in clubs rarely wash their hands, and if they do wash them, its just a matter of putting a little water over them and they're gone.

Oh, by all means, welcome in the foreigners so they can hand out soap in a dirty old toilet.

I'm really not sure what your point is here. You are complaining that foreigners are taking these prestigious toilet attendant jobs away from Irish people? You object to foreigners imposing their hand-washing culture on Ireland?

Naturally, you're going to defend this. No matter what is said, you'll defend it. I know the types.

Defend what? What *exactly* is your objection to immigrants working as toilet attendants? If you don't like them or don't feel their service is of any value to you, then nobody's forcing you to tip them.

Hobbes

Again you appear to be focusing on the one argument. There were numerous questions put forward to you. Try answering ones that people actually wanted a reply about.

Also if you make a statement of fact you are generally required to back that fact up with a source (its in the charter). Turning the question back on the other person isn't allowed until you have done that. Unless your stating opinion of course.

Oh and I wash my hands after going to the toilet. So I know not everyone doesn't. Lastly I was referring to the fact this sort of thing has been going on for years although generally in the richer nightclubs first.

You can continue to harp on about toilets and what not but you were saying that immigration is wrong yet you have yet to back up any assertions with facts that we can see where you are coming from.

Teneka

Since you're the one who thinks there are more Chinese than British in this country, I think it's you who is ill-informed.

Yeah, 2002...Hmm...what, 3 years ago? Yeah nothing has happened in 3 years. Wake up.

You are complaining that foreigners are taking these prestigious toilet attendant jobs away from Irish people?

Excellent. Putting words in my mouth. Did I say they were taking away jobs from the Irish people? No. The employers are pathetic in this instance. But it won't change a thing...

Hobbes

Teneka wrote:

Yeah, 2002...Hmm...what, 3 years ago? Yeah nothing has happened in 3 years. Wake up

Again.. If you believe there are more Chinese then British POST YOUR SOURCE OF INFORMATION. Saying "Wake up" doesn't cut it.

AFAIR the majority of the chinese in this country are in fact students, tax paying and putting money into our education system. I say Chinese now, I am sure there are other nationalities which are here which look Chinese to you, unless of course as I said you are basing this on *facts*

Meh

Teneka wrote:

Yeah, 2002...Hmm...what, 3 years ago? Yeah nothing has happened in 3 years. Wake up.

Please read the rules:

When offering fact, please offer relevant linkage, or at least source.

Excellent. Putting words in my mouth. Did I say they were taking away jobs from the Irish people? No. The employers are pathetic in this instance. But it won't change a thing...

You still didn't answer my question. What is your objection to immigrants working as toilet attendants?

sackville

Meh wrote:

I'll ask again, who in this thread is advocating abolishing our border controls entirely and allowing completely unrestricted immigration?
Your argument is just a straw man.

see my next post. There's one example. They don't come clean about it of course as they know if they went under the title say "Anarchists 4 open borders" they couldn't attract the gullible student following they need and wouldn't serve media/business interests.

GuanYin

Teneka wrote:

Naturally, you're going to defend this. No matter what is said, you'll defend it. I know the types.

I'm quite open to debate and retort and I will accept any well thought logical argument that is put against me.

Is that the type you know?

So how can you possibly state that most people wash their hands? See what you've done now? Good.

Where did I state that "most people wash their hands?"

What I said was
"in my experience most people wash their hands".

I even emphasised the "my" to show that I wasn't claiming it was the universal truth.

However, seeing as you ask, yes, I do see what I've done. I've shown that my experience is the opposite of your statement as to what is the universal, so unless I am victim to some sort of statistcal freak of nature regarding hand washing in pubs, I think *you* (and see how I emphasised again?) should perhaps stop putting forward gross generalisations as fact.

Pubs serve alcohol, people tend to forget things while consuming some drink, and washing their hands isn't high on the priority list let me tell you.

Can you please give stats or emperical evidence to back this up. Otherwise admit that its just your opinon and not actually a fact and then we can just agree to differ.

Oh, and what makes you think that just the top pubs and clubs have people doing this sort of job? I've been to many pubs and venues that aren't the most repsected in town.

Well apart from the fact that I specifically referred to other countries (you said you were in college right? You seem to have trouble reading my posts, is something distracting you?) rather than "in town", the US, for instance, has a much different pub/club culture to ours. The pubs in the cities tend to be of the plush kind where as the "locals" would be in the middle of nowhere (its alot to do with their town planninga nd alcohol laws too). The pubs just don't have toilet attenants, cos well... "they're just not that kind of place". Its a social thing really. Go and see for yourself.

Anyway, all this is off topic and really I just wanted to try and do a hands on demonstration about the difference between stating fact and posting opinion. You seem to have servere problems with that. And the difference between immigrants and asylum seekers. And reading others posts properly.
What I'd rerally like is for you to addresss these posts:


Unanswered question

Unanswered question

Unanswered question

But otherwise bang up job you're turning me, I have a big scissors for cutting eyeholes in my pillowcase tonight.

Hobbes

Meh wrote:

What is your objection to immigrants working as toilet attendants?

In fairness now he did say he had no problem with them working as toilet attendents.

Teneka

AFAIR the majority of the chinese in this country are in fact students

Sources?????

Hobbes

I find it somewhat comical your screaming for sources from me when you absolutly fail to supply any at all. AFAIR = As far as I recall. In that it is from memory. I will certainly go dig out a link to get the statistics for you.

But if you want seeing as you seem to think you are correct prehaps you could also look for the totals from China and post them. Seeing as after all you seem to know it better then me.

sackville

Wicknight wrote:

For a start point out where people are calling for completely open borders.

Secondly point out why this is even irrational with out resorting to Arcades for of "billions will come". You don't even know that if there was a competely free border system that billions would come. I can go to France to work if I want, but you don't see me doing it. IF it were true half of Nigeria would already be here applying for asylum. Instead we get a very small handful of refugees.

Seriously, where exactly is this idea that we are (or will be) over run with refugees and immigrants come from, because the figures of what is actually happening do not back any of it up. And you are calling my view point illogical?

The push-pull factors plus ACTUAL population SIZE difference are some of the major variables ,as well of course economic differences between countries that will determine the likehood of mass migration.

If you were to try to average size eggcup with a liter of water and you might get the idea . No danger of the eggcup contents flooding a empty liter container.

When it come sto the developing world Ireland (and in fact even much bigger european countries) are very comparable to the eggcup.
So yes, now that you ask Ido find anyone who can't acknowledge these concepts as being somewhat logically challenged.

GuanYin

Teneka wrote:

Sources?????

2874 Chinese students in higher education in 2003/2004 from a population of approximately 60,000 (I'm not sure on this figure).

[edit] "other students" (primary, secondary, PLC, doctorate and registered education institutes) 10,187


Total number: 13, 061

Source for student figures: International Education Board Ireland & Garda National Immigration Bureau.