Shankly Should Have Been Sacked in 1961

sharkman

It may surprise some people to be reminded of this, but Bill Shankly's first two seasons at Liverpool (then a sleeping giant) were not an outrageous success...

Full story at Shankley Gates

Ardent

sharkman wrote:

It may surprise some people to be reminded of this, but Bill Shankly's first two seasons at Liverpool (then a sleeping giant) were not an outrageous success...

Full story at Shankley Gates

Without reading the whole thing, it seems the general gist of this artcle is that Benitez should be given more time. It boggles the mind that people are giving him stick already. It's not his fault half the squad is still made up of donkeys from the Houllier era or that the few quality players we have would be out injured for so long. He's done well enough considering.

I'd like people to reserve judgement until after he's been given decent transfer funds in the summer to bring in the players he really wants.

Ronan|Raven

A great article by Paul Tomkins, always a good read.

p.pete

I'll read the article later when I get the chance but Shankly had to turn the club around completly - shave the squad, build the mentality, improve standards etc.

Unfortunately it feels like we've had to change the club around several times over the last decade, with each manager there was going to be a shift in standards and perhaps there's slightly less patients for each successive manager. I think Houllier improved a lot of things off the pitch but he bought a lot of crap players. Anyway - my patients aren't even slightly tested yet with RB, look forward to seeing the article

johnor

Only problem with that is that for players like gerrard, two years with liverpool and they will move up the table, lets be honest who could see liverpool winning the league in the next two seasons without a russian style revloution? Gerrard and the like want to win things asap, if he is getting offers from clubs that are in a position to win things he will want to move eventually, its grand to say see how hes done in four years but in four years the players who may be at their peek now wont be able to win tittles etc.

Only picking gerrard because for my money he is in the top 5 midfielders in the league....Progress is being made at liverpool and i agree that rb shout be given time but from gerrard's point of view he must put himself ahead of the club at some stage?

super_furry

If Gerrard goes, he goes. Will he be missed? Yes. Will Liverpool FC cease to be? Hardly. Bigger and better players than Gerrard have left Anfield and if he does leave, he'll be replaced.

The Muppet

super_furry wrote:

If Gerrard goes, he goes. Will he be missed? Yes. Will Liverpool FC cease to be? Hardly. Bigger and better players than Gerrard have left Anfield and if he does leave, he'll be replaced.

I agree in fact its possible that selling Gerrard may actually help Liverpool. If he is going to Chelsea as rumoured I would not be surprised to see Parker moving to Anfield as part of the deal. In that scenario Liverpool would be getting Gerrard replaced and would have cash to strengthen other areas. When everyone is fit it is really only the defence that needs a lot of work.


Thanks for the history lesson sharkman.

p.pete

The Muppet wrote:

When everyone is fit it is really only the defence that needs a lot of work.

I'd argue that the defense is not bad when everyone's fit - Finnan, Carragher, Hyppia and Riise. Needs a lot of cover though and it's not world-class.

johnor

I think replacing him would be easier said then done...He's the best player at liverpool by a long way, think Alonso is quality but I dunno about him adapting to english football it remains to be seen. I dont think a player like Scott Parker would ever come close to being as good as Gerrard. If liverpool sell him to another premiership club surely they are only strenghtening those they wish to beat, i mean liverpool are a massive club in england they need to be winning premierships, not just fa cup's or league cups i mean thats fine as a step toward further success but in order to build on that surely they must keep hold of their best asset? i cant see how selling gerrard would ever be a good move for liverpool. Even if he was sold for crazy money, they wouldnt be able to repalce him cos he is such a rare breed.

Jivin Turkey

Gerrard came through the youth team, just as good players have come before him, and just as good players will follow.

I wouldnt like to see him leave, especially for another premiership club, because I think he is still developing and will get much better as he gets more experience, and begins to understand what he can and cant do with the football (i.e. not always trying the killer pass/30 yard shot).

Having said that, for 30 million Liverpool could have bought Cech, Heinze, Vieira, and Henry. There are many players of the same calibre as Gerrard that Liverpool could get with a fraction of whatever transfer fee they would receive.

mayordenis

Darren Potter the new Stevie G??
but really we get 30+ million for stevie who sould we spend it on?? we could buy ayala,aimar and another 1 or 2 top quality players for the money we would make.

BolBill

We really have to give Rafa 2 years to put his own stamp on the club, I know it may seem like a long time but there is so much deadwood there at the moment that he must be given time to clear. Hyypia must be replaced, he turns like the Sealink these days

The Muppet

BolBill wrote:

We really have to give Rafa 2 years to put his own stamp on the club, I know it may seem like a long time but there is so much deadwood there at the moment that he must be given time to clear. Hyypia must be replaced, he turns like the Sealink these days

Finnan and Riise defensivly are not good enough either, Dudek has been very poor of late and Kirkland is always injured which is why I think the whole defensive unit needs replacing. Carragher is their only really good defender.

kida

I posted this in the other thread but got no reply.

What has he done since he joined Liverpool(Not before that) to warrant all the optimism signing Alonso apart. From the outside it looks like Houillier Mk II just with Spanish players.

He has failed to redress the problem of a small squad, both in August and appears to be now also.(There is the loan option)
He has started buying deadwood already.(Garica,Nunes,Josemi & Pellegrino)
Got the FA Cup decision totally wrong.

p.pete

kida wrote:

What has he done since he joined Liverpool(Not before that) to warrant all the optimism signing Alonso apart. From the outside it looks like Houillier Mk II just with Spanish players.

I don't think you can rate the players until they've spent a season in the English league (but feel free to do that if it makes you look smart). Apart from Alonso I'm excited about the prospects of Morientes playing closer to his full potential. Occasionally Garcia looks like he'll be quite useful but give him a year. We've just signed the current England under-21 keeper for a song too, from under the noses of Chelsea.

Burnley aside he's made a lot more use of the youth players available to him - they are all speaking of having a lot more hope of ever getting a game. This was never the situation with GH. Arsenal and United have been great times because they've had managers brave enough to blood new talent, GH wasn't brave enough but this is definitely a positive for me.

Our youth squad probably isn't all that strong yet but again that's something that will be worked on.

I think Pellagrino was an obvious mistake but other then that I think he's doing admirably considering all the injuries that have occured so far. I'm not happy with where we are in the league but I don't feel the need to feel anything other then optimism...

Jivin Turkey

kida wrote:

I posted this in the other thread but got no reply.

Probably because people felt it wasnt worth answering. But anyway.

kida wrote:

What has he done since he joined Liverpool(Not before that) to warrant all the optimism signing Alonso apart. From the outside it looks like Houillier Mk II just with Spanish players.

Well for a start he has been in the job 6 months and he has them in a postition in the league no worse than they were last year. He has got them into the 2nd phase of the CL. They are in the Carling Cup final. And to top it all off apparently Liverpool are bloody atrocious this year.

He has ripped the team apart, intent on getting his own stamp on the team ASAP. In Alonso and Morientes he has bought two players who are world class, and proven at the top level. He persuaded Gerrard to stay. He has gotten rid of almost every Houllier dud bar Biscan. Did I say he has only been in the job 6 months?

kida wrote:

He has failed to redress the problem of a small squad, both in August and appears to be now also.(There is the loan option)
He has started buying deadwood already.(Garica,Nunes,Josemi & Pellegrino)

Liverpool didnt have a small squad until he cleared a load of the players out, Diouf, Murphy, Owen, Vignal, Le Tallec, Heskey. He has chosen this option to have a look at the youth players and players Houllier didnt give a chance to. Perhaps the players he wants arent available thats why he hasnt bought.

As regards the "deadwood", Pellegrino has played three games where the team as a whole has been woeful, he was actually quite impressive against Watford, I think his hoofing of the ball has been curbed. I fail to understand how he could be termed as deadwood. He is a short term solution.

The others have started 16 games on average, I thought the same of Jaap Stam when he started at United. How wrong I was.

kida wrote:

Got the FA Cup decision totally wrong.

To the romantic yes. And dont get me wrong Im a little disappointed at being knocked out (I guess its the romantic side in me ). But the last thing Liverpool need (or cope with) is another cup run. They are still involved on three fronts.

There was a great article in the Sunday Independant about the FA cup game. Benetiz has set out his stall. He is not at Liverpool to win the FA cup, he is here to ultimately deliver the league. The FA cup (well domestic cups) kept Houllier in office past his time. It was an excuse that saved him when he failed in the league again and again. Benetiz has a goal, its not the FA cup.

Chucky the tree

kida wrote:

I posted this in the other thread but got no reply.

What has he done since he joined Liverpool(Not before that) to warrant all the optimism signing Alonso apart. From the outside it looks like Houillier Mk II just with Spanish players.

He has failed to redress the problem of a small squad, both in August and appears to be now also.(There is the loan option)
He has started buying deadwood already.(Garica,Nunes,Josemi & Pellegrino)
Got the FA Cup decision totally wrong.

oh dear :rolleyes:

jt seems to have answered it pretty well. but it just amazes me as to how people can dismiss a manager after only 6 months in the job? understandable if we are in relegation battle, or even mid-table but were doing well.

deadwood? henry would be considered "deadwood" by your estimates then. would mind having thatk ind deadwood in the squad

How can pellegrino be a mistake after only 3 games fo christ sake? before he has been playing in the reserves with valencia, so obviously not used to playing the full pace.

after seeing him in the watford game i would much prefer having pellegrino playing then traore, or diao.

Ardent

The Muppet wrote:

Finnan and Riise defensivly are not good enough either

Agree with you regarding Riise, I think he's a 1st division player at best.

Re Finnan, though, you are seriously mistaken - he's been one of Liverpool's players of the season so far this season and was also voted best right back in the Premiership a couple of seasons ago by his peers. Last season, every player, bar Gerrard, struggled.

The Rooster

Absolutely Ardent.

Finnan has been excellent this season - was badly missed for the defeats v mancs, burnley and soton.

p.pete

One other thing that Benitez has improved, don't think it's mentioned above and it's definitely a big difference - they don't play as negatively as under GH