suffering competiton - auschwitz, russia etc

chewy

ok so a number of times the "so more many more people got killed in Russian under Communism" arguements has come up... but I don't know much about the situation in Russia, did the 26 million (or whatever is number often quoted is) die/be murdered in a specific period or by a specific leader/idealogy... (more speicific then just communism)

looking up wiki I see it it is mostly summed up under "the Gulag"..... which im vaguely familiar with...

In 1991, the Supreme Soviet of the RSFSR officially recognized the day of October 30 as a Day of Remembrance of the Victims of Political Repression.

Dare I ask again, because im sure this has come up a millions times why the Shoah is the greatest tradgey of history, (ok perhaps cause its very recent and a European/Western story), surely there have been similar genocides in history of equal or greater destruction and tragedy pol pot etc?

The project remember the Gulags etc
http://www.memo.ru/eng/

Someone also pointed out that there is no specific day to remember the famine or the Irish Holocaust or Ghort Mor as its also called

simu

Some factors:

The huge number of people killed.

It happened in western "civilised" Europe and over a wide geographical area.

Its victims now have access to the media.

I don't see the point of ranking such events - they were all terrible and should all be remembered. Also, I think it's worrying that people think the Nazis were freaks and that the Holocaust was the lowest time in our history - I think it's more realistic to think that any other group of people could end up comitting similar atrocities if individuals and governments don't make an effort to respect the humanity of others.

DadaKopf

A thought that occurred to me today while watching the service at Auschwitz and Blair's missal was that, while the West is remembering a terrible episode in human history, repeating "never again" will never erase the aspects of human nature which made the holocaust possible in the first place.

While Blair was giving his speech in Westminster, it occurred to me that many people on the road casting Muslims in the same way the Nazis cast the Jews. We're not there yet. But what I find most horrifying is the near imperceptibility of how human beings can reduce other human beings to garbage without realising it.

Then how can any of us support the war on terror? And how can any of us apologise for Islamic fundamentalists?

It's so easy to become swept away in the political and media frenzy - a deliberate concoction - that we're suggestable to anything. Memorials like this make us feel like things are OK, but I think we have to be more careful now than ever.

Chewy: if you want to know what the Russian Gulags were like, you should read One Day in the Day of Ivan Denisovich by Alexandr Solzhenitzyn.

mycroft

chewy wrote:

ok so a number of times the "so more many more people got killed in Russian under Communism" arguements has come up... but I don't know much about the situation in Russia, did the 26 million (or whatever is number often quoted is) die/be murdered in a specific period or by a specific leader/idealogy... (more speicific then just communism)

Chewy how many threads can you start which are essentially "I don't know about this subject matter so can someone enlight me"

Whats your point are you about to create a top trumps dicators "Most number of dissidents liquidated"? Whats the point of this thread?

Is it anti Semitism???? Why is this important. Throughout history ethic groups have been persecuted, however this was the combination of brutality ruthless efficency and industrial age technology, its one thing to hate your neighbour, it's another to actively figure out that bullets, stabbing etc don't work and you need to put time effort and energy into creating an industry of extermination, and then afterwards make lamps and soap out of human remains.


But Okay but I'll humour you. For starts the world was focused on Europe when the holocaust was happening. People weren't in cambodia or the gulags so they couldn't see the mass graves and desperation and the pitful state of the people there. As for the famine. For one hundred years afterwards, we've struggled to survive, then rule ourselves, then stand on our own two feet. Secondly any memorial to Irish dead to Britisn action or inaction is invariably captured by miltiant republicans to further their cause, any Easter Sunday commeration is invariable hijacked by SF as if their were the personnifcation of pearce et all.

I'm not sure of your point chewy but I do think you've reached a new low.

Furthermore;

Your george soros thread appears to stem from here
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=66808&condense_comments=false#comment99000

And your An Gort Mor thread appears to come here
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=68358&condense_comments=false#comment99063

You appear to either be confused by the authour "Iosaf" and parroting his opinion here, or asking his questions (and this is kind of impressive) in a more incoherant fashion; without adding any real opinion to either.

daveirl

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pete

Anything to do with the fact that people were murdered simply for who they were (ie Jewish / gipsys etc), not what they did / said (ie political dissidents / communists)?

Redleslie2

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I think the Turks Armenian genocide was pretty clinical. Rarely gets a mention though.

Zombrex

I am going to go with MyCroft on this one .. what exactly is the point/question being raised with this thread?

Are you asking why we as Western Europeans have a lot of "rememberance" over the Holocaust and not say the genocide in Rwanda or the Russians killed by Stalin? The answer is in the question, it is because we are western europeans. The holocaust was next door to us, in a country that we are closely related to (how many Irish people have been to Rwanda or Cambodia).

The same can be seen with 9-11. A few weeks after the terrorist attacks 3000 people were killed in a military arms dump explosion in Africa. Didn't hear about that? Neither did most people. Yet my college cancelled a ball for 9-11 and didn't bat an eyelid when the african's died. I am not saying the college was ignoring the event or saying American lives are more important. It is just that events in places we as a culture don't have strong links to have less impact on us.

That is just the way of society I guess. Look at Princess Diana. 4 people a week die in road accidents in Ireland and does the country have a mass explosion of tears for them. No. But because Diana was a celebrity, someone people had a "direct" connection with (not really of course) they felt grief for someone they had never meet and didn't really know. Same when that kid was murdered a week ago. Events trigger emotions and feeling in us that other (sometimes worse) events don't. Emotions are funny old things

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

secret_squirrel

chewy wrote:

looking up wiki

If you have any real interest in a subject, perhaps you should actually take the time to do some proper research - rather than relying on a site thats a notorious collection of opinion, rumour and conjecture masquerading as 'facts'

Anyone who actually thinks that any Wikipedia is a clean reliable source of information needs their head read.

GuanYin

I think Eddie Izzard said it best:

"Pol Pot killed one point seven million Cambodians, died under house arrest, well done there.
Stalin killed many millions, died in his bed, aged seventy-two, well done indeed.
And the reason we let them get away with it is they killed their own people. And we're sort of fine with that - 'Yeaaaah, Go ahead!, We've been trying to kill ya for years'.
Hitler killed people next door...... Oh, stupid man. After a couple of years we won't stand for that, will we?"

bus77

pete wrote:

Anything to do with the fact that people were murdered simply for who they were (ie Jewish / gipsys etc), not what they did / said (ie political dissidents / communists)?

If the aim is to bring about a country of one people. aka. Socialism. Then those with a secular religion/history/culture/economy, are political dissidents.

Zombrex

syke wrote:

I think Eddie Izzard said it best:

"Pol Pot killed one point seven million Cambodians, died under house arrest, well done there.
Stalin killed many millions, died in his bed, aged seventy-two, well done indeed.
And the reason we let them get away with it is they killed their own people. And we're sort of fine with that - 'Yeaaaah, Go ahead!, We've been trying to kill ya for years'.
Hitler killed people next door...... Oh, stupid man. After a couple of years we won't stand for that, will we?"

Very funny but also sadly very true

true

Hussein was killing his own people ( eg the Kurds) and invating neighbouring countries ( eg Kuwait ) but when "we" decide to do something about it , and we find sanctions / the UN not working, we criticise the dozen or so core nations that do do something about it.
Ye cant have it both ways. Its always the UK / US that does the dirty work in repeling other agressive invading regimes ( eg Nazism, Japanese, North Vietnamese, Iraquis, Argentinians, Cold war Russians etc)
Ah sure, we 'll shelter under their umbrella and criticise them now and again, and get a few grants / factories / aid at the same time.
Ye cants have it both ways, by saying they dont care or they care too much + should stay at home like us.

chewy

ok the george soros one was crap but mycroft you've got anger issues that are nothing to do with me go sort them out!

mycroft

chewy wrote:

ok the george soros one was crap but mycroft you've got anger issues that are nothing to do with me go sort them out!

Wow eloquently put*

Still doesn't explain what you're trying to say in this thread though

*well eloquently put for you

shotamoose

Redleslie2 wrote:

I think the Turks Armenian genocide was pretty clinical. Rarely gets a mention though.

Yeah. Before embarking on the Final Solution, Hitler asked "Who now remembers the Armenians?". On that, at least, he was pretty much correct, but maybe the constant mantra that we should 'never forget' about the Holocaust is another way of getting back at the old prick.

I think syke's Eddie Izzard quote is a good answer to the question of why the Holocaust is given a kind of pre-eminence in the suffering stakes. Also, it happened to a mostly middle-class group of people in Europe, and it happened pretty quickly, and it quite properly can be used as a justification for the actions of the Allies in the War.

billy the squid

true wrote:

Hussein was killing his own people ( eg the Kurds) and invating neighbouring countries ( eg Kuwait ) but when "we" decide to do something about it , and we find sanctions / the UN not working, we criticise the dozen or so core nations that do do something about it.
Ye cant have it both ways. Its always the UK / US that does the dirty work in repeling other agressive invading regimes ( eg Nazism, Japanese, North Vietnamese, Iraquis, Argentinians, Cold war Russians etc)
Ah sure, we 'll shelter under their umbrella and criticise them now and again, and get a few grants / factories / aid at the same time.
Ye cants have it both ways, by saying they dont care or they care too much + should stay at home like us.

yeah but bugger all happened until he invaded kuwait in the 1990s

mycroft

billy the squid wrote:

yeah but bugger all happened until he invaded kuwait in the 1990s

Aside from arming the bugger and Rumsfelds quick exit when they discovered saddam was about to gas the kurds.

Genocide and human rights abuse are often used by the victor in a conflict to justify violence.

Hilter had to be defeated because of the Holocaust

Saddam had to be overthrown due to the repression of the kurds.

To take an example of a victor ignoring the genocide that was part of the victory you need to look no further than the british who created the concentration camp in which 40,000 boers died during the boer war. Or Churchills gassing of the kurds in the 20s. Simply put the previous war crimes of the victor are ignored and the war crimes of the defeated foe are raised to prominance. I don't mean this to say that in some manner I think the holocaust memorial service are unjustified it's just a simple fact, broken knee, the walk of tears, our famine etc..... are mentioned but because they highlight the crimes of the victorous culture they are dropped to the wayside,

One of the reasons neo nazis are revionists is they want to erase the real memory of a heinous crime, if the holocaust never happened national socialism is an effective and pratical form of government which praises it's individuality and resistance to the "evils" of multiculturalism.