Comparison of Protestants to Nazis by McAlesse

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Just call me Wubya!!

At least I wouldn't have to listen to them wingin!!...

Johnmb

simu wrote:

Yes, but she knows well that some unionists are waiting to pounce on her every word so she should have been clearer and left no room for any sort of ambiguity. I'm amazed an experienced speaker could make such a slip-up.

Well by the looks of it, she didn't make a slip up, the media simply edited what she said in order to create a story. She can hardly be blamed for bad journalism on the part of the media.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

MG

simu wrote:

Yes, but she knows well that some unionists are waiting to pounce on her every word so she should have been clearer and left no room for any sort of ambiguity. I'm amazed an experienced speaker could make such a slip-up.

Agreed.

galactus

simu wrote:

Yes, but she knows well that some unionists are waiting to pounce on her every word so she should have been clearer and left no room for any sort of ambiguity. I'm amazed an experienced speaker could make such a slip-up.

Well put. Fancy running for President?

landser

Horeb-Security wrote:

I would for one if I was in power look for her resignation as less has caused wars in the past.

And for one she is not Irish as she is from Northern Ireland and hence should not hold office.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

WARS!!!!???? between who?? well, maybe, but only between tin pot dictatorships. bit of reality here pls.

further, she is irish, whether you accept that or not. even if she wasn't irish, how would that preclude her from holding office??? do you know something about irish law that no one else does.

finally, what she said was true, but she should have put a bit of balance in it, in case sensibilities were hurt and they got all upset.

Big Ears

sounds a bit 'honk if you hate complaining' , if you know what I mean .

sceptre

simu wrote:

Also, has she never heard of Godwin's law?

Does Godwin's Law apply when Nazis are part of the original basis for making comments in the first place?

(in other words, comparing group X to Nazis when you were supposed to be talking about Nazis?)

impr0v

The media have always expected McAleese to slip up in some way in regard to the North, didn't someone refer to her as a liability due to her tribal background or something similar. I suspect that this, and of course the current difficulties with the process, are why this is being exaggerated to the extent it is.

mike65

I'm dissapointed with her, she did'nt have to draw an comparison in the first place and that she did so in a one-sided fashion betrays her mind-set.

Also she did her damdest not to comment directly on De Valeras' actions signing the book of condolences for Adolf Hitler, she was asked about 3 times to speak but danced around it. Its an interview she proberly should'nt have carried out.

Mike.

arcadegame2004

Being a Protestant I despise these comments and she should apologise to the entire protestant commnuity as it is disgusting and to me is another nail in the coffin for the peace process.

I would for one if I was in power look for her resignation as less has caused wars in the past.

And for one she is not Irish as she is from Northern Ireland and hence should not hold office.

She IS Irish. Read the Irish Constitution, which states that anyone born on the island of a parent born on the island is entitled to be part of the Irish nation. She is NOT British. The subject peoples of empires do not become the nationality of their rulers.

She was NOT calling the Protestants Nazis. I am really fed up of kneejerk reactions from the Unionists. President McAleese was simply making the point that some Protestants in NI brought their children up to hate Catholics. Can you seriously deny that this is the case, in the statelet where the first NI PM said that 'we are a Protestant Parliament for a Protestant people' and where the 2nd one, Lord Brookeborough said "I recommend those who are Loyalist not to employ Roman Catholics, 95% of whom are disloyal"?

I think comparing this bigotry in NI to the Nazis is over the top. But I don't really think she was doing that. She was simply condemning all sorts of bigotry. She was not saying that all the bigots involved go to the same lengths or that their hatreds are as extreme. But being the Unionists, Big Ian etc. have to jump to conclusions and interpret the remarks of the Irish Head of State in the most offensive connotation possible. Maybe it's just that the truth hurts?

Although I would not compare Unionist bigotry towards Catholics (which I accept is far less than once was) to Nazism, I make no apologies for making comparisons with the US Deep South and its treatment of blacks until the 1960's, for that is a correct comparison with similar devices having been used to stop Catholics voting as were used against blacks e.g. poll-taxes, gerrymandering with the 75% Catholic population of Derry made a minority on their own city council for decades.

pete

President Mary McAleese has this evening clarified remarks made in an interview yesterday which were seen by the Orange Order as a slur on the Protestant community of Northern Ireland.

On RTÉ Radio, Mrs McAleese acknowledged that she had been clumsy in trying to make the point that people should try to end the legacy of sectarianism on both sides.

She said she was devastated by the response to her remarks and expressed regret for not fully explaining herself. She added that she was deeply sorry for the hurt caused.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0128/mcaleese.html

true

It surely must go down as the insult of the century. She has insulted not only Protestants ( who did at least their fair bit in ridding Europe of Nazism ) , Jews, and those of all creeds who fought Nazism.

She did say "Protestants", NOT "some Protestants".

Imagine the outcry there would be if the head of another state, or even Queen Elizabeth, said that Irish Catholics bring up their children to hate Protestants, in the same way Nazis despised Jews.

On top of DeValeras blunders, on top of the statue to the IRA Nazi collaborator Russell which is located in a public place in Dublin, it is all a bit much. Protestants in Ireland too know a little bit about some of the treatments the Jews received. She ( Mrs McAleese ) is supposed to represent all the people, to be above politics. As a taxpayer in the Irish republic, I demand her resignation.

Teneka

Yes True, the Jews were the only ones involved in WWII. :rolleyes:

true

Teneka wrote:

Yes True, the Jews were the only ones involved in WWII. :rolleyes:

I never said or even suggested that Jews were the only ones involved in WW2.
What do you mean, Teneka ?

alleepally

true wrote:

It surely must go down as the insult of the century. She has insulted not only Protestants ( who did at least their fair bit in ridding Europe of Nazism ) , Jews, and those of all creeds who fought Nazism.

Are there statistics available on the number of Catholics v Protestants who fought in the war???? DOES IT MATTER????? NOOOOOO. So what is your point?

true wrote:

Imagine the outcry there would be if the head of another state, or even Queen Elizabeth, said that Irish Catholics bring up their children to hate Protestants, in the same way Nazis despised Jews.

WHat, are you talking north or south? I think the Catholics of the North might of had reason to hate Protestants given they were treated as second class citizens for so long.

true wrote:

On top of DeValeras blunders, on top of the statue to the IRA Nazi collaborator Russell which is located in a public place in Dublin, it is all a bit much. Protestants in Ireland too know a little bit about some of the treatments the Jews received. She ( Mrs McAleese ) is supposed to represent all the people, to be above politics. As a taxpayer in the Irish republic, I demand her resignation.

Can you expand on your statement that Protestants know a little bit about genocide?

YOU DEMAND HER RESIGNATION???? Tell you what, go find some real issue to get stirred up about in the world and cop the fcuk on. She's apologised now, what more do you want???

Rezmuter Duane

not only Protestants ( who did at least their fair bit in ridding Europe of Nazism )

Whats that, if not a sectarian insult?

On top of DeValeras blunders, on top of the statue to the IRA Nazi collaborator Russell which is located in a public place in Dublin, it is all a bit much.

In St. Stephens Green, there is a fountain from the German people, to the Irish people, with inscriptions in Irish, English and German, thanking the Irish people for their solidarity. Also until 1990, the national colour of Germany was green, in recognition of the fact that we didn't criminalise the German people for what their leader had done.

Protestants in Ireland too know a little bit about some of the treatments the Jews received

They know all about it all right, how to inflict it on others. The Orange Order marches do nothing but incite and instill more hatred in people. No side is blameless. However, the audacity of the DUP. A precious photo stopped them from taking the gun out of politics. Or rather, they placed the obstacle that kept it there.

Mary Mc Aleese made a statement citing an EXAMPLE. Can you deny that this is AN example? Is it not true that there was, and still is some "irrational hatred"?

May she serve her term in the knowledge that she is one of the great figures in modern Irish politics.

billy the squid

Her comments reminded me of the incitement of the redemptorist order in Limerick against the Jews at the turn of the 20th century..

I also found it odd that she failed to mention the deep rooted hatred of prodestants passed down from generation to generation of catholics in the north.

As for her comments on whether or not De Valera should have signed the book of condolences for Adolf Hitler. I thought the president of this country was prohibited from commenting on decisions made by the taoseach (sp)

pete

uhhh guys... http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2318612&postcount=43

true

QUOTE=alleepally "Are there statistics available on the number of Catholics v Protestants who fought in the war???? DOES IT MATTER????? NOOOOOO. So what is your point?"

It does not matter (AND NOOOOO NEEEDD TOOO SHOOOUT ). She compared the people in N. Ireland, the Protestants in N.I. to the Nazi, which is ironic in that at least N. Ireland took part in the war. I know a higher percentage of Protestants than Catholics fought facism , so why does she single out the Protestants to be like the Nazi in their upbringing of children / despiction of others ? Oh, she thinks Catholics never indoctrinate their children like all the Proddies do.


Quote "WHat, are you talking north or south? I think the Catholics of the North might of had reason to hate Protestants given they were treated as second class citizens for so long"[/I]

Am I talking north or south about what ? You think "the Catholics" of the North might of had reason to hate ALL Protestants ? You make the same mistake as McAlesse. Not all Northern Catholics would agree with you that they were treated as second class citizens for so long. There was one Catholic from west Belfast, who joined the British army, earned a VC for his exceptional bravery, and the only second class treatment he received was from some of the hardline catholics in west Belfast when he came home after the war.


Quote "Can you expand on your statement that Protestants know a little bit about genocide?"

You misquoted me, I never said Protestants know a little bit about genocide. Learn to read.



Quote "[B]YOU DEMAND HER RESIGNATION???? Tell you what, go find some real issue to get stirred up about in the world and cop the fcuk on. She's apologised now, what more do you want???/"

She has just apologised this evening, better late than never. She touched a raw nerve and added insult to injury by comparing a minority to the Nazi, especially with Irelands track record. Her sectarian remark is ill fitting for a President.
I was with some continental friends this evening and they could not believe it.
As regards you bad language attempt, minorities in Ireland have been intimidated with worse.

true

Rezmuter Duane wrote:

"Whats that, if not a sectarian insult?"

If you read the comment in context you will see it is not a sectarian insult.


Quote "In St. Stephens Green, there is a fountain from the German people, to the Irish people, with inscriptions in Irish, English and German, thanking the Irish people for their solidarity. Also until 1990, the national colour of Germany was green, in recognition of the fact that we didn't criminalise the German people for what their leader had done."

I must admit I never knew of this fountain, or noticed it there before. I must keep an eye out for it next time. Other countries did not criminalise the German people for what their leader ( actually the Nazi party ) had done either. Look at the help the Allies such as US and UK gave to Germany after the war in the form of the Berlin airlift, Marshall plan etc., and later co-operating on NATO etc.


Quote "They know all about it all right, how to inflict it on others. The Orange Order marches do nothing but incite and instill more hatred in people. No side is blameless. However, the audacity of the DUP. A precious photo stopped them from taking the gun out of politics. Or rather, they placed the obstacle that kept it there."

The orange parades in the 50's and 60's used to be days enjoyed by everyone in most areas, a bit like a St. Patricks day parade.
It was the IRA's refusal to show proof of decommissioning by eg a photo, never mind videos or other witnesses which stopped the IRA decommissioning.
The UK, Irish and US governments wanted the IRA to show this photo proof, so the process could move on. However, all this is not the point and merely a distraction from Mrs McAlesses insult.


Quote Mary Mc Aleese made a statement citing an EXAMPLE. Can you deny that this is AN example? Is it not true that there was, and still is some "irrational hatred"?

She said the children in Northern Ireland ere taught to hate Catholics. Why did she not say the children in Northern Ireland were taught to hate Protestants? Or say SOME - I repeat SOME - children were taught to hate Catholics OR - I repeat OR - Protestants. There is a huge difference.

arcadegame2004

She did say "Protestants", NOT "some Protestants".

I have heard what she said on the News and she did not even mention the word "Protestant" or "Protestants". The word she used was "people", not "all people". She meant "some people" and she has clarified that matter on the news.

Personally, I would not have put it in the way she did. I would have said that some people in both communities had been brought up to hate each other. But a slip of the tongue is not uncommon amongst ordinary people and the President has hardly ever made any in public, so we should forgive her this extremelt rare slip of the tongue.

True, what do you mean when you say Protestants in Ireland know something about genocide? I don't quite understand what you mean, especially considering Protestants were in Irish Government's from Day 1 of the Free State, with ZERO Catholics being allowed into the majority rule Stormont regime, which treated NI Catholics like the blacks in the Deep South of the US.

true

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I have heard what she said on the News and she did not even mention the word "Protestant" or "Protestants". The word she used was "people", not "all people". She meant "some people" and she has clarified that matter on the news.
.

If she meant some people would she not have said some people.
I would have given her the benefit of the doubt on this, but to confirm our worst fears, she did not say Catholic OR Protestant, she just said people teach their children in Northern Ireland to hate Catholics. If she said OR Protestants, it would have been ok, or if she said people from outside their own communities or whatever. Because the majority of people in N. Ireland are Protestant rather than Catholic, and because they are (according to her ) taught to hate Catholics just like the Nazis detested Jews, she implied the people teaching their kids to hate were the Prods. There is no other way anybody could interperit it.

So, a day and a half later she "clarifies" it. She let her mask slip and she knows it. I thought a president was supposed to be above politics, and to respect all the people of the land equally., instead of insulting them?

true

arcadegame2004 wrote:

True, what do you mean when you say Protestants in Ireland know something about genocide? I don't quite understand what you mean, especially considering Protestants were in Irish Government's from Day 1 of the Free State, with ZERO Catholics being allowed into the majority rule Stormont regime, which treated NI Catholics like the blacks in the Deep South of the US.

For the second time, I did not say Protestants in Ireland know something about genocide. Please learn to read. What I said was "Protestants in Ireland too know a little bit about some of the treatments the Jews received"
I am not talking about nowadays, I am talking about many moons ago. Eg the Fethard on Sea case, which is exactly what happened in Germany in the mid 1930's except it was on a more nationwide scale in Germany then. What about the hounding out of the Jews in Limerick by the Redemptorists in the 1930's. What about all the house burnings and intimidation in the first few decades of the last century. Why do you think the Protestant population declined in the 26 counties? How many Protestants got government jobs in the 26 counties ? Bragging about the one or two in the Govt. proves nothing. Blacks in the Deep South of the US are treated equally now, just like Catholics in N. I. Actually, Catholics now have a better chance of getting a job in the police in N. I., than Protestants, because of the 50: 50 quota. A sort of reverse discrimination. Even to this day, how many Protestants are in the Gardai? I think only 12 or 14.

George_h

true wrote:

If she meant some people would she not have said some people.
I would have given her the benefit of the doubt on this, but to confirm our worst fears, she did not say Catholic OR Protestant, she just said people teach their children in Northern Ireland to hate Catholics. If she said OR Protestants, it would have been ok, or if she said people from outside their own communities or whatever. Because the majority of people in N. Ireland are Protestant rather than Catholic, and because they are (according to her ) taught to hate Catholics just like the Nazis detested Jews, she implied the people teaching their kids to hate were the Prods. There is no other way anybody could interperit it.

So, a day and a half later she "clarifies" it. She let her mask slip and she knows it. I thought a president was supposed to be above politics, and to respect all the people of the land equally., instead of insulting them?

I think she picked an extremely bad example and to put it in context she should have said that people on both sides ( or several sides with all the splinter groups these days) instill intolerance in northern ireland and that this is not a million miles away from what lead to the haulocaust and indeed still happens to this day despite the cries of never again.

It is not a big a leap as people like to think and only needs a small spark to polarise everybody. Intolerance should be stamped out, but also this extreme form of political correctness taht exists today.

I don't believe that Mary McAleese is the sort of person that would deliberately go out to offend anyone, and this just slipped out. :eek:

I'd let this one slide...... if she does it again, then rightfully slate her. She's only human after all and we all say things we think sounds right in our heads...... but in retrospect is absolutey awful.

Cork

Setarianism is a fact on both sides in Northern Ireland.

One side should not have been signaled out as an example.

I am sure Mary McAleese will regain the trust of the Protestant community.

I heard the interview live and it hit me straight away that this comment should not have been made.

pete

Earlier today, the Orange Order and unionist politicians said they accepted the apology.

However, the Orange Order Grand Secretary, Drew Nelson, said that he believed a meeting between the order and President McAleese would take place some time in the future, but perhaps not as early as March, as previously planned.

The Ulster Unionist Party leader, David Trimble, said he was glad that there has been an apology, because he considered the remarks remarkably ill-judged and most unlike the president.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0129/mcaleese.html

Sarky

It reminds me of the whole "More popular than Jesus" fiasco the Beatles faced way back when. People are far too eager to shout "EVIL!" and bash something with a stick at the first sight of a particualr buzzword...

Cork

She has apologised. That should be the end to it.

But this is Northern Ireland - The Groundhog day state.

Some political partys up there have an obvious "them and us" atitude.

mycroft

mike65 wrote:

I'm dissapointed with her, she did'nt have to draw an comparison in the first place and that she did so in a one-sided fashion betrays her mind-set.

Also she did her damdest not to comment directly on De Valeras' actions signing the book of condolences for Adolf Hitler, she was asked about 3 times to speak but danced around it. Its an interview she proberly should'nt have carried out.

Mike.

Just a point. as a child her deaf teenage brother had his throught cut by a protestant gang

The family home was firebombed, and the family business was shot at eventually forcing the Mc Alesse family from the Ardoyne.

Now I'm not justifying her stupid mangled comments, but she has sat down with former Unionist terrorists and been a force for good in the peace process, which is alot more than most of us could do if we had her background.