Comparison of Protestants to Nazis by McAlesse

Stabshauptmann

true wrote:

It surely must go down as the insult of the century.

Let me think, in 4 years has anything more insulting been said...
You might actually be right there, often nothing hurts more than the truth.

She has insulted not only Protestants ( who did at least their fair bit in ridding Europe of Nazism ), Jews, and those of all creeds who fought Nazism.

What are you getting at. I dont actually remember religions fighting WW2, I think it was nations (mostly of mixed religions) or more specifically, soldiers.

How exactly was the condemantion of bigotry an insult to those who fought in WW2. Wait a minute, are you saying that American racism towards Japanese, or British inate superiority to its colonists or Communist oppression in some way blurrs the line, that WW2 wasnt merely a fight between right and wrong? I'm not sure how many would agree with you but you might have a point...

She did say "Protestants", NOT "some Protestants".

She said people. Obviouly she didnt mean ALL people in NI, I doubt many catholic parents thought their children to hate themselves

Imagine the outcry there would be if the head of another state, or even Queen Elizabeth, said that Irish Catholics bring up their children to hate Protestants, in the same way Nazis despised Jews.

There was a time when she might have had a point, ill never remember that classic, "if a Protestant is comming towards you, cross the street." How do you know if they're a Protestant: "Their eyes are too close together". Racism is generally born out of ignorance, raised on fear and ripens into hatred. Its a terrible thing.

On top of DeValeras blunders

I somehow doubt he took any pleasure from it or agreed with Hitler, perhaps it had something to do with a notion of neutrality that he wanted to show.

on top of the statue to the IRA Nazi collaborator Russell which is located in a public place in Dublin

Just to be clear, Russell "collaborated" with the german military to get military aid. In the same way Britain collaborated with Stalinist Russian for military aid.

it is all a bit much.

Damn other people and their opinions!!

Protestants in Ireland too know a little bit about some of the treatments the Jews received.

That DUP bigot McCrea hinted at the same thing yesterday. There are NO protestants under the floor boards. There were no secret killing of Protestants. The reasons Protestants make up a smaller percentage of the population now than they did in 1900 was A)Increas in population of catholics and other ethnic groups faster than increase in Protestants. many large land owners left Ireland fearing some sort of revenge that never happened or because it was no longer profitable to live in their large estates.

She ( Mrs McAleese ) is supposed to represent all the people, to be above politics.

She does and she is. Look at her record, tell me what you find. Meetings with Loyalist paramilitaries? Now who was on that guest list for her inaugaration, what else was in that interveiw she made, was it the only example of bigotry she gave..

As a taxpayer in the Irish republic, I demand her resignation.

As a taxpayer I demand she stay. As an intelligent person, well informed and capable of reasoning I demand she stay. As someone with a vote I demand she stay. As someone with a red T-shirt I demand she stay. (Im not saying you dont have a red T-shirt )

Stabshauptmann

Cork wrote:

She has apologised. That should be the end to it.

But this is Northern Ireland - The Groundhog day state.

Some political partys up there have an obvious "them and us" atitude.

Damn them!!

star gazer

originally posted by Cork
She has apologised. That should be the end to it.

Why take so long to do it? Had she clarified her remarks within a few hours/the same day she wouldn't even have needed to apologise but leaving the 'clumsy' comment allowed it to fester and was leaving the unionists getting more and more defensive as time went on. The slip was unsusual from a normally sure-footed speaker but she's got enough credibility to get through this.

true

QUOTE Necromancer] "Let me think, in 4 years has anything more insulting been said...
You might actually be right there, often nothing hurts more than the truth."

So you, Necromancer condone McAleeses racist and sectarian remark, which said a community of a million people (ie Protestants) bring their children up to hate Catholics, in the way the Nazis treated the Jews ?


Necromancer said : What are you getting at. I dont actually remember religions fighting WW2, I think it was nations (mostly of mixed religions) or more specifically, soldiers.

I never said religions fought in WW2, I said at least the Protestants played their fair share in fighting Nazism.


Nec said "How exactly was the condemantion of bigotry an insult to those who fought in WW2."

Her speech was not a condemnation of bigotry, it was a classic illustration of bigotry.


Nec said " Wait a minute, are you saying that American racism towards Japanese, or British inate superiority to its colonists or Communist oppression in some way blurrs the line, that WW2 wasnt merely a fight between right and wrong? I'm not sure how many would agree with you but you might have a point..."

I never mentioned or implied " American racism " or "British inate superiority"
(as you call it ) , or Japan . Unlike you, I think Britain and America are great countries, and I would not describe these countries fit with your adjectives in the context of the fight against Nazism.


Nec said "She said people. Obviouly she didnt mean ALL people in NI, I doubt many catholic parents thought their children to hate themselves"

So you think ALL Protestants are taught to hate Catholics, and no Catholics are taught to hate Protestants?


Nec said "I somehow doubt he (DeValera )took any pleasure from it or agreed with Hitler, perhaps it had something to do with a notion of neutrality that he wanted to show. "

Oh yeah , was not DeValera great to have been neutral against the Nazi death camps. Something fairly unique in the world. AT the end of a war in which over 100,000 people from Ireland went abroad to fight Nazism. What an insult many of them felt.



Nec said "Just to be clear, Russell "collaborated" with the german military to get military aid. In the same way Britain collaborated with Stalinist Russian for military aid."

There is a difference between two indepentent countries co-operating to fight Nazism ( ie UK giving supplies to Russia ) , and a terrorist / terrorist group plotting with the Nazi regime.


Nec said "Damn other people and their opinions!!"

No, we live in a democracy, unlike Nazi Germany, thanks largely to the UK, US and Russia.


Nec said "That DUP bigot McCrea hinted at the same thing yesterday. There are NO protestants under the floor boards. There were no secret killing of Protestants. The reasons Protestants make up a smaller percentage of the population now than they did in 1900 was A)Increas in population of catholics and other ethnic groups faster than increase in Protestants. many large land owners left Ireland fearing some sort of revenge that never happened or because it was no longer profitable to live in their large estates."[/I

I did not hear his interview but I am sure he did NOT say there are Protestants under the floorboard. Why did the Protestant population of the 26 counties decline , not just in percentage terms as you admit ( therefore blowing your excuse A out of the water ) BUT in absolute terms also? Your excuse B is an insult, as the vast majority of Protestants in the 26 counties were small, working class people, not large landowners.
In these early years of the state, what about the house burnings, the shootings, the intimidation, the descrimination, the Fethard-on-Sea incident?

arcadegame2004

True, as someone from Co.Wexford who knows of the Fethard-on-Sea incident you refer to, I would reply that it was so long ago and even then (in the 1950's not the 30's) was an extremely rare example of Southern sectarianism. You mention that hardly any Protestants are in the Gardai. However, you neglect to mention that 12% of the Dail is Protestant. And anyway, the context is differernt from NI, in that the Gardai have never been involved in acts of collusion with the IRA against Protestants in the South, unlike the RUC involvement in the murder of Catholic lawyers like Pat Finucane, just a few weeks after Minister Douglas Hogg warned in the House of Commons against solicitors 'sympathetic to Republican terrorism' (or words similar to that).

Whatever you may say about there only being a "handfull" of Protestants in Southern governments, it was at least more than the ZERO NI Catholics let into the old Stormont regime.

monument

true wrote:

You think "the Catholics" of the North might of had reason to hate ALL Protestants ?

It appears you're implying as if you don’t think they had a reason to even hate SOME, which is worse that what McAlesse has said.

And quite sad.

true wrote:

You make the same mistake as McAlesse.

Yes, it was a mistake to say it in such a way, but McAlesse knows what has happened in the north. Unlike you, she is not blind, or in denial, about such.

true wrote:

Not all Northern Catholics would agree with you that they were treated as second class citizens for so long.

Sure, it was like a playground, and they were all having fun.

One question: what’s it like to have your head buried in the sand?

elvenscout742

Am I the only one who noticed that by the time she mentioned Northern Ireland she was no longer specifically talking about Nazi Germany but about the general view held by all Christians toward Jews for about a millennium and a half?

Still, I disapprove of that analogy, too, and the treatment of just about all minorities by Catholics in the Republic is as bad as, if not much, much worse than, the treatment of Catholics in Northern Ireland, IMO.

true

Quote True, as someone from Co.Wexford who knows of the Fethard-on-Sea incident you refer to, I would reply that it was so long ago and even then (in the 1950's not the 30's) was an extremely rare example of Southern sectarianism.
What about all the houseburnings, the shootings, the intimidation years ago as well ? What about the churches that have been broken in to and vandalised with grafitti, and other Protestant property burnt down? What about the imtimidation during the h-block era ?


You mention that hardly any Protestants are in the Gardai.
Yeah, how many Protestants got jobs in the Irish semi state or civil service ?

However, you neglect to mention that 12% of the Dail is Protestant.
I did not know that. I have always been happy voting for a Catholic. Where do you get this 12% source from ? Link please .



Quote "And anyway, the context is differernt from NI, in that the Gardai have never been involved in acts of collusion with the IRA against Protestants in the South, unlike the RUC involvement in the murder of Catholic lawyers like Pat Finucane"

Collusion has nothing to do with it. If you want to see Gardai collusion, you just have to look at the murder of Justice Gibson and his wife, or the murder of the two RUC men returning north after a meeting with Gardai in Dundalk.
It does not matter that the victims were not residents of the south, collusion with terrorists is wrong no matter where the victims are from, or what religion they are.

Quote [I]Whatever you may say about there only being a "handfull" of Protestants in Southern governments, it was at least more than the ZERO NI Catholics let into the old Stormont regime.

I never said the old regime in 1960's Northern Ireland was right, but you cannot blame all Protestants now for hating Catholics so much they pass this attitude on to their children, like the Nazis attitude to Jews. As someone who has been in a Nazi death camp, I think it is insulting to Jews as well, to compare the situations. Its not as if SOME Catholics were never taught to hate Protestants ? Oh no. I remember SOME people cheering many times whenever they heard on the radio about another UDR or RUC man killed - "yippee, another prod gone" Unlike McAleese, I do not tar everyone with the same brush.

I noticed some new grafitti a few miles from where I live in the 26 counties today on a wall. It said "UP REAL IRA. FCUK DA PECE PROCES. FCUK DA DIRTY PRODS." Was McAleeses remarks an incitrid to hatred?

true

monument wrote:

Yes, it was a mistake to say it in such a way, but McAlesse knows what has happened in the north. Unlike you, she is not blind, or in denial, about such.

Sure, it was like a playground, and they were all having fun.

One question: what’s it like to have your head buried in the sand?

Eh , monument, I know what happened in the North too. On both sides. If I was giving the world an example of hatred, on the day of the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auchwitz , I would not draw paralels between Natiz attitudes to Jews and THE PEOPLE of Northern teaching their children to hate Catholics. If she had said SOME of the Protestants, that would have been ok. If she said SOME PEOPLE from Northern Ireland teaching their children to hate those of a different religous or political persuasion, or words to that effect, that would have been fair at least, and not sectarian.

Re. Catholics in the North in the 50's and 60's, I never said it was like a playground. It was not like a playground for Protestants either. No country was like a playground for 99% of its population. However, it was not all bad for all Catholics, and many Catholics I know considered themselves better off than people in the 26 counties. Do not forget that all the polls show about 32% of the Catholic population of N. Ireland want to stay in the UK.
Maybe you think they have their head buried in the sand as well? Or do you want to bury it in the sand for them because they do not agree with you?

George_h

Apology has been made............. Apology has been accepted.
Can we all just move on?
There's no point dragging up all the old stuff..... we have enough politicians doing that already. Probably why there'll be no real peace for a while yet.
History is there to learn from.... not as an excuse to beat people over the head with. .........

TomF

My wife grew up in Belfast. Her father saw mobs of "non-Catholics" surging toward their neighbourhood setting house after house on fire, and as an elderly man, tried to save neighbouring houses by playing a garden hose on the flames. She tells me there was never even a hint of anti "non-Catholic" talk in their home even at the worst of the anti-Catholic actions by "non-Catholics" in Belfast.

I have always been surprised at the restraint of ordinary Catholics in the North in their language and public utterances with respect to "non-Catholics" who go beserk in their behaviour toward Catholics, and have done so since...when shall I say? Since Cromwell?

I think Mary was absolutely right and correct to say what she did, and I was hugely pleased she was forthright enough to get the words out in the public forum. I am disappointed that now she has apologised, but in another way, she may have not apologised for saying the truth, only for hurting the feelings of people who have been innocent of any anti-Catholic behaviour. The truth of her original words are still resonating in the world's consciousness.

Horeb

arcadegame2004 wrote:

True, as someone from Co.Wexford who knows of the Fethard-on-Sea incident you refer to, I would reply that it was so long ago and even then (in the 1950's not the 30's) was an extremely rare example of Southern sectarianism. You mention that hardly any Protestants are in the Gardai. However, you neglect to mention that 12% of the Dail is Protestant. And anyway, the context is differernt from NI, in that the Gardai have never been involved in acts of collusion with the IRA against Protestants in the South, unlike the RUC involvement in the murder of Catholic lawyers like Pat Finucane, just a few weeks after Minister Douglas Hogg warned in the House of Commons against solicitors 'sympathetic to Republican terrorism' (or words similar to that).

Whatever you may say about there only being a "handfull" of Protestants in Southern governments, it was at least more than the ZERO NI Catholics let into the old Stormont regime.

Sectarinaism is rife in this country I as a protestant and several other families have been subject to it in my area and others, i have served this army here and got it here this country is a sesspit of insular thinking people.

There is no isolated incidents of sectarnism in ireland it is widespread and much worse than the north in some places.

But oh I am a minority I better not say anything or I may offend the fenian lovers here or the sectarnian president and as for her past she is no angel as having a fiend who is a professor in queens she was nothing but trouble.

get rid of her and the moronic office like the royal family in the UK

Horeb

TomF wrote:

My wife grew up in Belfast. Her father saw mobs of "non-Catholics" surging toward their neighbourhood setting house after house on fire, and as an elderly man, tried to save neighbouring houses by playing a garden hose on the flames. She tells me there was never even a hint of anti "non-Catholic" talk in their home even at the worst of the anti-Catholic actions by "non-Catholics" in Belfast.

I have always been surprised at the restraint of ordinary Catholics in the North in their language and public utterances with respect to "non-Catholics" who go beserk in their behaviour toward Catholics, and have done so since...when shall I say? Since Cromwell?

I think Mary was absolutely right and correct to say what she did, and I was hugely pleased she was forthright enough to get the words out in the public forum. I am disappointed that now she has apologised, but in another way, she may have not apologised for saying the truth, only for hurting the feelings of people who have been innocent of any anti-Catholic behaviour. The truth of her original words are still resonating in the world's consciousness.

Lets be clear Catholics in the north are no angels and as for mobs, what about the people in markethill in armagh in a church in the past shot dead for being protestants, the workmen in the same area killed for being protestants.

pal get you head outta your arse and go back 20 years and live there as a protestant, catholics were one vicious shower or the people using that name.

and lets not forget the pedo's in your lovely chruch that a lot of you all choose the look the other way, or the vactican and it's arms trading or white slavery do i need to go on.

the president is a pure moron and should resign or whats it going to be next a decree that she is infaliable.


She is an educated moron and should resign here office as she is a puppet and no more and a waste of taxpayers money

pogoń

TomF wrote:

My wife grew up in Belfast. Her father saw mobs of "non-Catholics" surging toward their neighbourhood setting house after house on fire, and as an elderly man, tried to save neighbouring houses by playing a garden hose on the flames. She tells me there was never even a hint of anti "non-Catholic" talk in their home even at the worst of the anti-Catholic actions by "non-Catholics" in Belfast.

I've heard all this hundreds of times before.

Usually the story is that the Catholics were burnt out of their homes by the sectarian RUC.

There was a large amount of population movement in Belfast in the early seventies, but this resulted in almost as many Protestants evacuating their homes as Catholics.

With regard to demographic changes in the geographical distribution of Protestants and Catholics in Ireland, statistics show an entirely different story to anecdotal evidence.

Around 1/3 of the Protestants in the Republic fled in the 20's, while the proportion of Catholics in Northern Ireland has increased. It is incredible to believe that before WW1 the Republic had a sizeable Unionist community, and that Dublin returned two Unionist MPs.

In Northern Ireland Protestants have evacuated large swathes of the province since the start of the troubles: towns such as Newry and Coalisland and rural areas close to the border no longer being considered 'safe'. The most dramatic example would be that of the 'Maiden City' Londonderry. In 1970 there were over 10,000 Protestants living on the West bank; today less than 1,000 are confined to one heavily- protected estate, the Fountain, which comes under constant attack from Republican youth.

By way of contrast the only area in Northern Ireland that has seen a decrease in the number of Catholics is Carrickfergus.

If Nazis may be defined as terrorist groups forcing members of another ethnic group to leave their homes, farms and businesses through violence or threat of violence, as happened to Jews in the 30's, well the term may equally well be used to describe the actions of the Provisional IRA towards Protestant communities over the troubles.

mike65

Can we acknowledge that no-one community has a monoploy on grief or inflicting same and leave it at that?

Mike.

hill16

The UVF,UDA,LVF and Orange order have killed people because of thei religion just like the Nazis did. :mad:

Blackjack

true wrote:

You mention that hardly any Protestants are in the Gardai.[/B]
Yeah, how many Protestants got jobs in the Irish semi state or civil service ?

Is there any proof of selection based on Religion in either Semi State or Civil Service? Link please.

true wrote:

Collusion has nothing to do with it. If you want to see Gardai collusion, you just have to look at the murder of Justice Gibson and his wife, or the murder of the two RUC men returning north after a meeting with Gardai in Dundalk.

Actually in the first instance there is absolutely no evidence of Collusion. In the second, it still remains a doubt. 1 possible instance?. Collusion was rife in the North, and you continue to ignore it.

true wrote:

Unlike McAleese, I do not tar everyone with the same brush.

Just some sections of the population, when it suits you.

true wrote:

I noticed some new grafitti a few miles from where I live in the 26 counties today on a wall. It said "UP REAL IRA. FCUK DA PECE PROCES. FCUK DA DIRTY PRODS." Was McAleeses remarks an incitrid to hatred?

Grafitti is such a great indicator of the mindset of the General population, isn't it?.

true

mike65 wrote:

Can we acknowledge that no-one community has a monoploy on grief or inflicting same ?
Mike.

Why did McAleese not say that in her apology. Her apology smacks too much of Sinn Feins apology for Jean McConvilles murder : it was wrong. ( BUT it was not a murder ). Wrong what ? Wrong tactically, but not wrong morally?

Since McAleeses remarks on Thursday morning I know of more vandalism of Protestant property in a vunerable border county in the republic. It will almost certainly not be reported in the media, but these things happen, you know. The people directly affected know to keep a low profile. Thanks, Mrs. McAleese.

true

hill16 wrote:

The UVF,UDA,LVF and Orange order have killed people because of thei religion just like the Nazis did. :mad:

The UVF , UDA and LVF have sometimes killed people because of their religion Sometimes they killed people because they thought their victims were members of IRA. Sometimes they killed in direct retaliation for the killing of someone from their own community, as they saw it.

The Orange Order NEVER killed anyone. Saying they killed someone because of their religion is like saying Opus Dei or the Knights of St. Columbanus killed someone because of their religion. You making these allegations about the Orange Order is like some of the allegation thrown at Jews in the 1930's.
I am not a member or fan of the Orange Order but fair is fair. They are not murderers.

Stabshauptmann

true wrote:

So you, Necromancer condone McAleeses racist and sectarian remark, which said a community of a million people (ie Protestants) bring their children up to hate Catholics, in the way the Nazis treated the Jews ?

She didn’t actually say that, that’s the main problem with your arguments. She said hatred doesn’t just start it’s passed from one generation to another and she then gave a number of examples. I personally felt that the example about ppl of different colour skin was very important. Too many ppl in Ireland are abusive to immigrants and it was right of the President to say so. Like wise the sectarianism in the North has to bee called what it is, sectarianism. She made no links between the intensity of these types of hatred and the intensity of Nazi hatred. While she didn’t say some ppl, she also didn’t say all ppl. Why she couldn’t have possible meant all people was explained to you.

I never said religions fought in WW2, I said at least the Protestants played their fair share in fighting Nazism.

What does that mean?!
What does it matter if soldiers fighting in a war have a specific religion unless that war is fought for religious reasons? Take a wild guess what the predominant religions in Europe were. Were they the same on both sides? So what’s your point?
Might I be right in saying that you meant Unionists in NI played their part in WW2 as well? If so then the fact that you immediately divide politics into religious grounds shows your own sectarian nature.

Her speech was not a condemnation of bigotry, it was a classic illustration of bigotry.

Yes, I remember I was at a KKK meeting in America’s deep south and the grand master said "passing on hatred to your children is wrong, whether its hatred of other religions or other races e.g. hatred of Catholics or hatred of Blacks"
She illustrated examples of bigotry, that’s not the same as saying she is an illustration of bigotry. You are in need of English lessons.

I never mentioned or implied " American racism " or "British innate superiority"
(as you call it ) , or Japan . Unlike you, I think Britain and America are great countries, and I would not describe these countries fit with your adjectives in the context of the fight against Nazism.

Then you need some history lessons.
In the USA Japanese was constantly depicted as monkeys and primitive creatures in the media and no match for American superiority. When war broke out Japanese Americans were interned without trial.
The innate superiority of the motherland is what justified colonialism throughout history in all its forms. Britain "civilised" the world. The old British aristocracy was based on the system of innate superiority. Why the monarch is god’s representative on earth didn’t you know.
I’m not saying this is the case any more but it was the case at the start of the last century.
Interesting the way you ignored Russian oppression. inconsistence in the measuring stick seems to be consistent in your arguments.

So you think ALL Protestants are taught to hate Catholics, and no Catholics are taught to hate Protestants?

There is no possible way that could have been derived from what I said, you are inventing arguments and attaching my name to it in order to discredit me.
The set X is a subset of N. The set X does not equal the entire set N. The element C for example, is an element of N but not an element of X. Its is not logical or correct to then assume the set X = N-C.
If that’s all too complicated for you, then you need help in math as well as history and English.

Oh yeah , was not DeValera great to have been neutral against the Nazi death camps. AT the end of a war in which over 100,000 people from Ireland went abroad to fight Nazism. What an insult many of them felt.

Dev no more knew about Nazi death camps than America or Britain knew when they refused Jewish refugees. Not knowing about a very well kept secret was not "Something fairly unique in the world."

There is a difference between two independent countries co-operating to fight Nazism ( ie UK giving supplies to Russia ) , and a terrorist / terrorist group plotting with the Nazi regime.

Why? Don’t just state opinion like fact, tell me why you believe this. (Before you get all high and mighty, you DO have to, it’s in the charter).

No, we live in a democracy, unlike Nazi Germany, thanks largely to the UK, US and Russia.

Not me. I live in a democracy because the majority of the ppl of Ireland, inspired by the 1916 rising and the subsequent British reaction to it that they were no longer going to live under the rule of a government out of touch with their sentiments and needs. They came together and democratically elected representatives which conferred on the IRA the job of removing British influence from Ireland.
I do know that Britain constantly threatened to invade unless Ireland entered the war on her side. To bow to this demand would be to undermine Irish independence. By remaining neutral Ireland proved to the world she could make her own choices.
The democratic actions and intent of subsequent generations upheld these institutions and thus I can happily live in a democracy.

I did not hear his interview but I am sure he did NOT say there are Protestants under the floorboard. Why did the Protestant population of the 26 counties decline , not just in percentage terms as you admit ( therefore blowing your excuse A out of the water ) BUT in absolute terms also? Your excuse B is an insult, as the vast majority of Protestants in the 26 counties were small, working class people, not large landowners.
In these early years of the state, what about the house burnings, the shootings, the intimidation, the discrimination, the Fethard-on-Sea incident?

McCrea made references to missing Protestants and butchery. The line "Protestants under the floor boards" is a line that has been used by the DUP for as long as I can remember.
Some intimidation of large estate owners did happen but it wasn’t large scale and you your self pointed out that most Protestants didn’t live in these large estates so that cant be used to explain the decline.

true

QUOTE Necromancer : She didn’t actually say that, that’s the main problem with your arguments.

No, but that was the clear implication. That is why there is so much controversy, and why she made an attempt at an apology.


Like wise the sectarianism in the North has to bee called what it is, sectarianism.

She drew attention to anti-catholic feeling in the North from "the people" there towards "Catholics" , in the context of the Nazi feelings towards Jews.


She made no links between the intensity of these types of hatred and the intensity of Nazi hatred.

What an insult to non-Catholics as well as to Jews.




Might I be right in saying that you meant Unionists in NI played their part in WW2 as well? If so then the fact that you immediately divide politics into religious grounds shows your own sectarian nature.

First, I do not have a sectarian nature, unlike our president it seems. I would NOT liken the anti-Protestant hatred passed by Catholics to their children as being like the way the Nazis hated the Jews.
As regards Protestant doung their bit to fight Nazism , I said that Protestants done their fair share. You cannot deny that. They abhor Nazis, and are not like them.


Yes, I remember I was at a KKK meeting in America’s deep south

You keep good company. The rest of your statement is as phoney, I am sure.



Why the monarch is god’s representative on earth didn’t you know.

She is not, and you are displaying ignorance here. I thought you would have said the Pope was Gods rep. on Earth ?


Interesting the way you ignored Russian oppression. inconsistence in the measuring stick seems to be consistent in your arguments.

Space and patience dictate that you do not mention everything that is not directly relevant to the point being made.


There is no possible way that could have been derived from what I said, you are inventing arguments and attaching my name to it in order to discredit me.
The set X is a subset of N. The set X does not equal the entire set N. The element C for example, is an element of N but not an element of X. Its is not logical or correct to then assume the set X = N-C.
If that’s all too complicated for you, then you need help in math as well as history and English.

More gobbledygook. So you admit not ALL protestants are brought up to hate Catholics, and at least some Catholics are brought up to hate Protestants and / or the British ?

Dev no more knew about Nazi death camps than America or Britain knew when they refused Jewish refugees. Not knowing about a very well kept secret was not "Something fairly unique in the world."

Rubbish. It was months since Auchwitz was liberated when Dev went to sign the book of condolences for the death of leader of Nazism. More than a few Germans at this point in history detested Hitler, for what he had done. But not Dev. How many Jewish refugees were let in here after the war? 200 children , but only on condition that they stayed for 2 years only, and providing the Jews here looked after them.


Why? Don’t just state opinion like fact, tell me why you believe this. (Before you get all high and mighty, you DO have to, it’s in the charter).

You think it is just opinion when I said "There is a difference between two independent countries co-operating to fight Nazism ( ie UK giving supplies to Russia ) , and a terrorist / terrorist group plotting with the Nazi regime. "
The terrorist group in question , the IRA, had very little support during the war ( Dev even executed some IRA ). The morality of the IRA collaboratity with the Nazi regime, against the wishes of the Irish people, leaves a lot to be desired. Did not Russell, the IRA man , die on a U-boat? He did.



Not me. I live in a democracy because the majority of the ppl of Ireland, inspired by the 1916 rising and the subsequent British reaction to it that they were no longer going to live under the rule of a government out of touch with their sentiments and needs. They came together and democratically elected representatives which conferred on the IRA the job of removing British influence from Ireland.
I do know that Britain constantly threatened to invade unless Ireland entered the war on her side. To bow to this demand would be to undermine Irish independence. By remaining neutral Ireland proved to the world she could make her own choices.
The democratic actions and intent of subsequent generations upheld these institutions and thus I can happily live in a democracy.

Typical. I said we live in a democracy because of the actions of the UK, US and Russia ( along with help from people from some other countries, in case you get exact, like Australia ) in defeating Nazism. If the US, UK and Russia had not stood up to Facism we would not live in a democracy. What do you do : go off on a irrelevant provo tangent.


McCrea made references to missing Protestants and butchery. The line "Protestants under the floor boards" is a line that has been used by the DUP for as long as I can remember.

I never heard the line "Protestants under the floor boards". There are no Protestants under the floor boards as far as I am aware.


Some intimidation of large estate owners did happen but it wasn’t large scale and you your self pointed out that most Protestants didn’t live in these large estates so that cant be used to explain the decline.

You gave two reasons for the decline, and you NOW admit that the two reasons you gave cannot explain the decline. You ignore the house burnings, the intimidation, the killings, the incidents like Fethard on Sea etc. Oh, the only descrimination / sectarianism / sabotage in Ireland at the time occured in N. Ireland.

monument

true wrote:

Eh , monument, I know what happened in the North too. On both sides.

You seam to be bordering on denying that there ever was any miss treatment of Catholics by the state, I was replying to this quote…

"Not all Northern Catholics would agree with you that they were treated as second class citizens for so long."

…Or at least you’re down playing it.

true wrote:

If I was giving the world an example of hatred, on the day of the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auchwitz , I would not draw paralels between Natiz attitudes to Jews and THE PEOPLE of Northern teaching their children to hate Catholics.

She didn’t say “THE PEOPLE of Northern”.

All hate should be challenged, the Nazis greater hate was only allowed because of a lower hate by the general population. The lower hate only fuelled the greater hate.

true wrote:

If she had said SOME of the Protestants, that would have been ok. If she said SOME PEOPLE from Northern Ireland teaching their children to hate those of a different religous or political persuasion, or words to that effect, that would have been fair at least, and not sectarian.

She did not say “SOME of the Protestants”, she didn’t even say “Protestants”. But yes she probably should have said “SOME PEOPLE”.

As I’ve said McAlesse seems to, like TomF’s wife, know what the real mindset in the north - one side’s mistrust/hatred was/is reactionary, while the other is of a general deep believe that they were/are better then Catholics - a kind of mindset everyone (even I) in the south seems find it hard to believe, so much so it was disregarded out of hand by most (at first, even I done so).

true wrote:

Re. Catholics in the North in the 50's and 60's, I never said it was like a playground. It was not like a playground for Protestants either. No country was like a playground for 99% of its population.

AGAIN you’re bordering on denial that there was ever any miss treatment of Catholics by the state in the north, or at least down playing it.

true wrote:

However, it was not all bad for all Catholics, and many Catholics I know considered themselves better off than people in the 26 counties. Do not forget that all the polls show about 32% of the Catholic population of N. Ireland want to stay in the UK.
Maybe you think they have their head buried in the sand as well? Or do you want to bury it in the sand for them because they do not agree with you?

AGAIN you’re bordering on denial that there was ever any miss treatment of Catholics by the state in the north, or at least down playing it.

Do you have a reason for doing such?

true

QUOTE=monument You seam to be bordering on denying that there ever was any miss treatment of Catholics by the state, I was replying to this quote…

"Not all Northern Catholics would agree with you that they were treated as second class citizens for so long."

…Or at least you’re down playing it.


It is true that not all Northern Catholics would argree with you that they were treated as second class citizens for so long. I never said some Catholics were not mistreated by the state in N. Ireland, and there was some discrimination. However, it is not as widespread as you would have us believe. Why else do 32% of Northern Catholics want to stay as part of the UK? You can pick injustices in practically every country in the world if you want to.


Quote She didn’t say “THE PEOPLE of Northern”.

She did mention People, not Some people. And she did refer to Northern Ireland.



Quote All hate should be challenged, the Nazis greater hate was only allowed because of a lower hate by the general population.
Yeah, I agree, all hate should be challenged, whither it is from the mouth of our President ( in comparing protestants to the Natis). As regards challenging the hate of the Natis, a fat lot of good McAleeses state did, apart from signing the book of condolences on the death of the leader of Natism.


She did not say “SOME of the Protestants”, she didn’t even say “Protestants”.

I know she did not actually say the word "Protestants", but she referred to the people of Northern Ireland who teach their children to hate Catholics.
As Catholics are not taught to hate Catholics, I am sure you know only too well she was referring to Protestants.

As I’ve said McAlesse seems to, like TomF’s wife, know what the real mindset in the north - one side’s mistrust/hatred was/is reactionary, while the other is of a general deep believe that they were/are better then Catholics - a kind of mindset everyone (even I) in the south seems find it hard to believe, so much so it was disregarded out of hand by most (at first, even I done so).
Oh I seeee, even you think one side is bigoted and the other is not. This in itself is an example of bigotry. The other side could just as easily say "one side’s mistrust/hatred was/is reactionary, while the other is of a general deep believe that the Prods are black, bigotted heathens are should go back to Britain "


AGAIN you’re bordering on denial that there was ever any miss treatment of Catholics by the state in the north, or at least down playing it.

I never denied it, but it is you and many other Sinn Feiners that overplay it.

monument

true wrote:

It is true that not all Northern Catholics would argree with you that they were treated as second class citizens for so long.

AGAIN - Do you have a reason for down playing mistreatment of Catholics by the state?

true wrote:

I am sure you know only too well she was referring to Protestants.

Although she could have worded it better, in not saying ‘protestants’ she wasn’t really making generalisations.

true wrote:

Oh I seeee, even you think one side is bigoted and the other is not. This in itself is an example of bigotry.

I never said one side is and the other is not. Can you stop misquoting people? I don’t even think I gave my view, but views of people that know the north more about the north then I.

true wrote:

The other side could just as easily say "one side’s mistrust/hatred was/is reactionary, while the other is of a general deep believe that the Prods are black, bigotted heathens are should go back to Britain "

You used “Prods are black” as an example of an insult, then you try to call me bigoted. Nice, very nice.

Oh, and I don’t think they should go back to Britain, protestants are as much entitled to live in the north as any one else.

true wrote:

I never denied it, but it is you and many other Sinn Feiners that overplay it.

AND AGAIN - Do you have a reason for downplaying mistreatment of Catholics by the state?

elvenscout742

hill16 wrote:

The UVF,UDA,LVF and Orange order have killed people because of thei religion just like the Nazis did. :mad:

Ummm... I think you need a bit of education in this matter. You see, Hitler didn't kill that many people because of religion (some Jehova's Witnesses, but they weren't as infamously slaughtered as Jews of Gypsies). He sought to exterminate the Jewish RACE, not religion. And just about everyone I've met in my life has shown some degree of religious prejudice toward some religion, particularly the extremely nationalistic, right-wing Catholics in this country who hate Northern Irish Protestants on religious grounds.

true

monument wrote:

AGAIN - Do you have a reason for down playing mistreatment of Catholics by the state?

AND AGAIN - Do you have a reason for downplaying mistreatment of Catholics by the state?

I think you are a bit brainwashed, monument, because this is all you keep saying when I stated things like the following:

[I]It is true that not all Northern Catholics would argree with you that they were treated as second class citizens for so long
I never said some Catholics were not mistreated by the state in N. Ireland, and there was some discrimination. However, it is not as widespread as you would have us believe. Why else do 32% of Northern Catholics want to stay as part of the UK?

I know many Northern Catholics who would not agree with your view of history, yet you think that ALL Northern Catholics were mistreated in N. Ireland. Sorry to open your eyes, but life was not a bed of roses for most ordinary people in the 26 counties then either ( more than a few Northern Catholics considered themselves better off financially then than those in the south ). Many working class Protestants did not live the high life then either.

From listening to you, monument, and listening to Mrs. McAleese on Thursday morning, a visitor from Mars would think sectarianism in N. Ireland was completely one sided, and that Protestants were like Nazis.

In my experience , far from it. There are good and bad people on both sides.

simu

sceptre wrote:

Does Godwin's Law apply when Nazis are part of the original basis for making comments in the first place?

(in other words, comparing group X to Nazis when you were supposed to be talking about Nazis?)

Yeah, there's a need for more legislation(!) along those lines. A first shot:

Within the confines of a given discussion on Nazism, any participant comparing the sufferings of Holocaust victims with considerably lighter injustices or deprivations suffered by some other group of people is excluded automatically for the purposes of cringe-reduction.

This would need to be tweaked a bit as it's still somewhat subjective.

monument

true wrote:

I think you are a bit brainwashed, monument, because this is all you keep saying when I stated things like the following:

I'm still waiting for you to answer the question. How long do I have to wait?

true wrote:

I know many Northern Catholics who would not agree with your view of history, yet you think that ALL Northern Catholics were mistreated in N. Ireland.

I've already asked you to stop putting words in my mouth - I never said that “ALL Northern Catholics” were mistreated by their state.

true wrote:

Sorry to open your eyes, but life was not a bed of roses for most ordinary people in the 26 counties then either ( more than a few Northern Catholics considered themselves better off financially then than those in the south ). Many working class Protestants did not live the high life then either.

Are we still talking about state mistreatment of its people?

true wrote:

From listening to you, monument, and listening to Mrs. McAleese on Thursday morning, a visitor from Mars would think sectarianism in N. Ireland was completely one sided, and that Protestants were like Nazis.

Again, I have never said it was one sided. Basis hatred is all the same, but I wouldn’t say protestants are/were like the Nazis, although the mindsets of some (like some on the other side) can be compared to the Nazis.

true wrote:

In my experience , far from it. There are good and bad people on both sides.

Can you show me where I've said other wise?

elivsvonchiaing

simu wrote:

Yeah, there's a need for more legislation(!) along those lines. A first shot:

Within the confines of a given discussion on Nazism, any participant comparing the sufferings of Holocaust victims with considerably lighter injustices or deprivations suffered by some other group of people is excluded automatically for the purposes of cringe-reduction.

This would need to be tweaked a bit as it's still somewhat subjective.

I walk past the 1974 Dublin/Monaghan bombing memorial on Talbot street nearly every day. I think most streets in Jerusalem would probably merit one of these. It is important to realise that we got off lightly as a nation - there was civil war but no outright genocide. Think there might have been had we had a 32 county Ireland.

Still think Mary Mc was right - in the republic - no-one gives a flying fúck about religion (mainly) - In the "province" - "Johnny, I don't want you playing with that girl "Ailbhe". Her parents "I don't wan't you playing with that kid Johnny! - they killed you grandfather!" -
The ugly reality is over 60 years we have evolved into 2 diverse cultures! We are one - but we're not the same! To back this up/wash this away - l give you all public opinion... (Just my own feelings on this is all!)

true

QUOTE=monument I'm still waiting for you to answer the question. How long do I have to wait?

It is a loaded question : "Do you have a reason for down playing mistreatment of Catholics by the state" because I do or did not downplay the mistreatment of Catholics by the state. I told you some facts about Catholics in N. Ireland : why do you not challenge these facts if you want to challenge me, instead of asking me why do I do something which I do not.




Monument wrote "I've already asked you to stop putting words in my mouth - I never said that “ALL Northern Catholics” were mistreated by their state."

It was implied in many of your statements eg
When I said " It is true that not all Northern Catholics would argree with you that they were treated as second class citizens for so long" all you could do was repeat "Do you have a reason for down playing mistreatment of Catholics by the state"


[B]

true wrote:

Sorry to open your eyes, but life was not a bed of roses for most ordinary people in the 26 counties then either ( more than a few Northern Catholics considered themselves better off financially then than those in the south ). Many working class Protestants did not live the high life then either.

Are we still talking about state mistreatment of its people? [/B]

No. If you want to see state mistreatment of its people, and those of neighbouring countries, have a look at Nazi Germany.


Monument wrote :Again, I have never said it was one sided. Basis hatred is all the same, but I wouldn’t say protestants are/were like the Nazis.

You implied it See my previous post below, and your reply.

Posted by true
"If I was giving the world an example of hatred, on the day of the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auchwitz , I would not draw paralels between Natiz attitudes to Jews and THE PEOPLE of Northern teaching their children to hate Catholics."

You replied : "She didn’t say “THE PEOPLE of Northern”.
All hate should be challenged, the Nazis greater hate was only allowed because of a lower hate by the general population. The lower hate only fuelled the greater hate."

By the way, you are right about one thing : she did not say " the people of Northern Ireland", she said "the people in Northern Ireland "


When Monument said "I wouldn’t say protestants are/were like the Nazis", well, the President of Ireland compared the way their children are brought up to hate Catholics as being "in the same way "the Nazi brought up their children to hate Jews. Glad to hear you are not as bigotted under the skin as our President so.


Monument wrote :Can you show me where I've said other wise?/

It is the clear and direct implication in some of your previous posts eg you wrote

"Yes, it was a mistake to say it in such a way, but McAlesse knows what has happened in the north. Unlike you, she is not blind, or in denial, about such."


When I wrote "Not all Northern Catholics would agree with you that they were treated as second class citizens for so long."

You, monument, just wrote "Sure, it was like a playground, and they were all having fun."