Arsenal v United (may contain scores)

Iago

anybody got a wav file or link to one of the incident?

The Muppet

BolBill wrote:

Anyway its gonna mean nothing as Chelsea are gonna stroll it.

We heard that two years ago too and look what happened then. Arsenal collapsed and lost a hugh lead and United went on to win the title. I'm not saying that will definitely happen this season as unlike yourself and a few others I can not see into the future but I do know from experience it is a possibility.

talla

Dirky-Wynne, don't bring the Chelea match into this, it has nothing to do with this match and is off topic.

joe.

The Muppet wrote:

We heard that two years ago too and look what happened then. Arsenal collapsed and lost a hugh lead and United went on to win the title. I'm not saying that will definitely happen this season as unlike yourself and a few others I can not see into the future but I do know from experience it is a possibility.

but it would be so sweet. be up there at top of list of uniteds great achievements. IF

dirkey_wynne

irish1 wrote:

I just give my opinion as I see it, no bias except when Villa are playing

If Arsenal had got the penalty it would have been a great advantage to get back in front so quick, but remember I did say in my earlier posts that I believed UTD deserved the win.

Ah, ok. Then I'm sure when I trawl through the Chelsea post I'll see you saying, as you saw it, that Utd should have had two. Because if you say it as you see it, then I have no doubt without bias you will have noted penalties which should have gone in Utd's favour and didn't, and will be giving out about the ref from that game. Good stuff.

A Dub in Glasgo

dirkey_wynne wrote:

Ah, ok. Then I'm sure when I trawl through the Chelsea post I'll see you saying, as you saw it, that Utd should have had two. Because if you say it as you see it, then I have no doubt without bias you will have noted penalties which should have gone in Utd's favour and didn't, and will be giving out about the ref from that game. Good stuff.

Before something bad happens

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2333938&postcount=204

dirkey_wynne

talla wrote:

Dirky-Wynne, don't bring the Chelea match into this, it has nothing to do with this match and is off topic.

Talla, I'm just using that particular game to illustrate my point. Fans are regularly coming in here saying ref's mess up when Utd don't have penalties given against them, I'm just wondering why the same fans aren't coming in pointing out penalties which don't go in our favour when they should. It is off topic, technically, but I feel I'm discussing last nights incident, using a Chelsea game for illustrative purposes.

BaZmO*

dirkey_wynne wrote:

Talla, I'm just using that particular game to illustrate my point. Fans are regularly coming in here saying ref's mess up when Utd don't have penalties given against them, I'm just wondering why the same fans aren't coming in pointing out penalties which don't go in our favour when they should. It is off topic, technically, but I feel I'm discussing last nights incident, using a Chelsea game for illustrative purposes.

A fair enough point IMO.

B.

mr_angry

I heard Gary Neville on the radio this morning saying that he didn't enjoy playing in last night's game because of the atmosphere of intimidation, and said it should never be allowed to happen again.

Ok, either Gary is making the most of the situation and trying to get Arsenal in trouble, or he is the biggest girl in football. I refuse to believe that Gary was really intimidated by anyone in his career, let alone a bit of finger-pointing on behalf of Patrick Vieira. And to say he didn't enjoy playing in a massive grudge match between 2 of the best teams in Europe? Bullshìt.

I don't mean any offence to United supporters, and I don't want to start a flame war, but I really wish United, in particular Ferguson, would stop whinging on about how they were hard done over "The Battle of Old Trafford" (a massive exaggeration in its own title even), and Arsenal's "rough tactics". Fergie's boys are well able to handle themselves. I should point out that Arsenal are capable of whinging with the best of them, but Fergie has been really pushing this point in the build-up, and I don't think it is constructive at all. In the end, he'll probably just spark another war of words, and I'll be forced to watch Arsenal get involved in a lot of petty bickering too.

Villain

dirkey_wynne wrote:

Ah, ok. Then I'm sure when I trawl through the Chelsea post I'll see you saying, as you saw it, that Utd should have had two. Because if you say it as you see it, then I have no doubt without bias you will have noted penalties which should have gone in Utd's favour and didn't, and will be giving out about the ref from that game. Good stuff.

Neither of those penalities were stone wall definite's, the first one with Saha was definitely not, the second could have been given, but IMHO it wasn't a peno.

Just my opinion, as I said then it's what the ref says that go's and that go's both for and against UTD. I have no reason who bash United but, I just think the 2 penalty decisions in both the Arsenal and United games went Uniteds way, as I said do United deserved to win last night and probably would have if the peno had been given.

That ok or are you still not happy?

dirkey_wynne

irish1 wrote:

Neither of those penalities were stone wall definite's, the first one with Saha was definitely not, the second could have been given, but IMHO it wasn't a peno.

Just my opinion, as I said then it's what the ref says that go's and that go's both for and against UTD. I have no reason who bash United but, I just think the 2 penalty decisions in both the Arsenal and United games went Uniteds way, as I said do United deserved to win last night and probably would have if the peno had been given.

That ok or are you still not happy?

That's just dandy! I'm extremely happy, we did beat the Arsenal on their own patch after all. Woo-hoo. I agree totally that utd got the rub of the green twice against Arsenal, but on the other side of the coin we had Silv (deservedly) sent off last night, when flailing elbows Bergkamp wasn't, and should have been.

BolBill

dirkey_wynne wrote:

That's just dandy! I'm extremely happy, we did beat the Arsenal on their own patch after all. Woo-hoo. I agree totally that utd got the rub of the green twice against Arsenal, but on the other side of the coin we had Silv (deservedly) sent off last night, when flailing elbows Bergkamp wasn't, and should have been.

ahhh thats a pity, you had redeemed yourself there and then you go and say something stupid re Bergy should have been sent off. tut tut

dirkey_wynne

BolBill wrote:

ahhh thats a pity, you had redeemed yourself there and then you go and say something stupid re Bergy should have been sent off. tut tut

Well if Roonaldo deserved his 3 game ban for raising the palm of his hand to that Bolton lad face, surely Bergy deserves similar for regular use of elbows?

Villain

dirkey_wynne wrote:

Well if Roonaldo deserved his 3 game ban for raising the palm of his hand to that Bolton lad face, surely Bergy deserves similar for regular use of elbows?

Don't forget Heinze's regualry use of the elbow

dirkey_wynne

irish1 wrote:

Don't forget Heinze's regualry use of the elbow

I don't think he's malicious. I think he's just awkward with them - Bergkamp regularly lashes out with his.

Villain

dirkey_wynne wrote:

I don't think he's malicious. I think he's just awkward with them - Bergkamp regularly lashes out with his.

LOL he's too good to be just awkward, he was at Solano in the Villa game and last night he gave the first free kick by using using his arm, and he gave lauren a burst lip later in the game, everyone around me was saying he will eventually get in trouble for it.

jank

Vieria is talking to pat rice i think the arsenal physio and not any utd player.

I think it was premediated, no matter what happened keane was going to have a go at vieria and try and win the mind game there and then. Maybe it worked. But did gary neville tell on him or something??
And if neville is saying that the highbury/library is worse then turkey or italy then he is really really full of **** and trying to milk the situation. If arsenal are bad losers then Utd are bad winners if that is the case.

Good game overall but going to have to avoid the tabloids for the next 2 months now.

LizardKing

jank wrote:

Utd are bad winners .

Of course they are .. so would I be if pool came from 2 - 1 down and beat arsenal in the library with 10 men for 20 mins ... i'd be a real bad winner

dirkey_wynne

irish1 wrote:

LOL he's too good to be just awkward, he was at Solano in the Villa game and last night he gave the first free kick by using using his arm, and he gave lauren a burst lip later in the game, everyone around me was saying he will eventually get in trouble for it.

well the one with Lauren was hilarious. He actually caught him with his hand, and it was an accident - Lauren was moaning to the ref like a little baby. Hilarious stuff. As for Heinze - fair enough, if he's malicious he deserves to go. Does Heinze doing it justify Bergkamp doing it? I don't think so.

BaZmO*

irish1 wrote:

LOL he's too good to be just awkward, he was at Solano in the Villa game and last night he gave the first free kick by using using his arm, and he gave lauren a burst lip later in the game, everyone around me was saying he will eventually get in trouble for it.

Yeah I agree totally. I've been same the same for the last while now. Undoubtably he's a class player but he's well tough and he does tend to uflap his elbows about when defending the ball.

B.

SteM

jank wrote:

Vieria is talking to pat rice i think the arsenal physio and not any utd player.

I think it was premediated, no matter what happened keane was going to have a go at vieria and try and win the mind game there and then. Maybe it worked. But did gary neville tell on him or something??
And if neville is saying that the highbury/library is worse then turkey or italy then he is really really full of **** and trying to milk the situation. If arsenal are bad losers then Utd are bad winners if that is the case.

Good game overall but going to have to avoid the tabloids for the next 2 months now.

Being honest, no one here knows what was said to anyone before the cameras were switched on. Vieria might have said something or he might not. IMO I think it's more likely that something was said rather than Keane - player who is known for speaking his mind - making it up completely. Say what you like about him be he's never come across as a liar in that way.

Why would you avoid the tabloids by the way - those guys {heart} Arsenal.

LoneGunM@n

Has to be one of the most enjoyable matches I've watched in ages ... The tension was great & the tunnel bust up was a great way to get the blood boiling!!

I'm not going to go into the whole diving/peno thing, cause each fan has their own spin on it & being a United fan it would be biased against Arsenal!! The most important development for me from this Match and the Middlesborough match was the quick pass & move element [shades of Arsenal] has crept back into the United game which bodes well for the future if it stays that way!

smemon

it's great reading the papers, for once they cant pick faults with utd's performance. totally blown out of porpotion of course but it's good to see utd still have that magic and class in the tank when needed.

utd are in the best form theyve been in in years imo, for some reason their really gee'd up for every game. milan will be in for a tough match, in reality i agree the title will be extremely difficult to snatch but this hunger and winning mentality could do wonders for utd in europe. should chelsea lose tonight (*crosses fingers*) we'll be 8 points behind.

for me thats gettable when u consider they have to play both utd and arsenal. utd must keep the foot on the gas all the way to the end, winning EVERY game imo in order to win the title. thats a HUGE task facing them but looking at last night they do have it in them.

yop

smemon wrote:

utd are in the best form theyve been in in years imo, for some reason their really gee'd up for every game. milan will be in for a tough match, in reality i agree the title will be extremely difficult to snatch but this hunger and winning mentality could do wonders for utd in europe. should chelsea lose tonight (*crosses fingers*) we'll be 8 points behind.

for me thats gettable when u consider they have to play both utd and arsenal. utd must keep the foot on the gas all the way to the end, winning EVERY game imo in order to win the title. thats a HUGE task facing them but looking at last night they do have it in them.

that is a good point, best run I have seen them in in a long time, IF we can play as well against Milan as we did last night then there is a good chance that we take them, if Sheva is still injured it will be a big bonus for United.
I honestly cannot see Chelsea been caught as they have way too class to fup it up, but it is football so god knows.

Thanx 4 The Fish

dirkey_wynne wrote:

well the one with Lauren was hilarious. He actually caught him with his hand, and it was an accident - Lauren was moaning to the ref like a little baby. Hilarious stuff. As for Heinze - fair enough, if he's malicious he deserves to go. Does Heinze doing it justify Bergkamp doing it? I don't think so.

No it does not, it does however illustrate the colur blindness of some fans. Were you not the one who was pointing out that nobody was mentioning Penalties that should have been for United ?

Yet nary a mention from the Man u fans of Heinze's flailing arms, despite alot of them saying that Bergy should have been sent off for his until it was highlighted.

smemon

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

No it does not, it does however illustrate the colur blindness of some fans. Were you not the one who was pointing out that nobody was mentioning Penalties that should have been for United ?

Yet nary a mention from the Man u fans of Heinze's flailing arms, despite alot of them saying that Bergy should have been sent off for his until it was highlighted.

heinze shields a player off, it's not intentional, violent play, you can tell that from his body language. ok, he might smack someone in the face but it's only a brush or smack at most, he doesnt deliberately throw his arm in the face of another player, its always while he's sheparding the ball or holding off a man.

bergkamp went for silvestre not once but twice, looking back as he throws an elbow. big difference. it was intentional. bergkamps was off the ball too, he had no excuses. ok if silvestre fouled him initially fair enough but you cant fight back like that in such a dangerous manner. if it was a few shoves or finger pointing i'd pass no remarks.

Thanx 4 The Fish

And how do you know that, the "Accidental elbow" is not part of his game, it is easy to look innocent after smacking somebody. I do think that DB was in the wrong to attempt elbowing somebody but I also think that it is wrong for United fans to completely dismiss similar actions by a United player.

smemon

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

And how do you know that, the "Accidental elbow" is not part of his game, it is easy to look innocent after smacking somebody. I do think that DB was in the wrong to attempt elbowing somebody but I also think that it is wrong for United fans to completely dismiss similar actions by a United player.

it is part of his game, im not denying that although it's not an 'elbow' all the time. watch shearer, he does it when going up for headers, spreads his arms, trying to shield his man from getting the ball. heinze will get away with it as a defender and he should if its not deliberate.

you often see him shielding the ball, having hands out in the air in order to make himself as big as possible to get around, it's called good defending. once again, his body language tells the story, he's always looking at the ball, wants to get the ball, he doesnt lean into players or obstruct them. of course it depends on the ref too. but imo you cant penalise a defender, never mind an attacker from spreading his arms out to shield the ball.

intent is the key word here and thats all based on opinion but if it were any defender id think it harsh to book him or fine/ban him for doing what heinze does.

dirkey_wynne

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

And how do you know that, the "Accidental elbow" is not part of his game, it is easy to look innocent after smacking somebody. I do think that DB was in the wrong to attempt elbowing somebody but I also think that it is wrong for United fans to completely dismiss similar actions by a United player.

You see I don't think they're similar.I think it's his arms flying around as he shields the ball etc. If it's violent, as Ithink Bergkamps were, then he should go. But I don't think Heinze's were on purpose. So imho they aren't similar incidents.

And if you think i'm totally biased, look back and you'll see i agree it was a peno, agree it shouldn't have been a peno at OT earlier in the season...agree Rooney deserved his ban after Bolton game etc

The Muppet

dirkey_wynne wrote:

And if you think i'm totally biased, look back and you'll see i agree it was a peno, agree it shouldn't have been a peno at OT earlier in the season...agree Rooney deserved his ban after Bolton game etc

But you're still a united supporter, a breed apart that is supposed to be over critical of the team you support. If you dont agree with the ABUS myopic view you're either blinkered or wearing red tinted glasses. I thougt you would have known that by now.

Real referees in the premiership don't appear to have a problem with Heinz's style so I don't see a problem with it. As you said it's all about intent and Heinze's intent is to defend his space and not to injure anyone . Great player one of Fergies best signings and already a fans favourite and legend in the making.

cournioni

Great win and performance for United. And that is all that matters!

Jivin Turkey

The Muppet wrote:

Real referees in the premiership don't appear to have a problem with Heinz's style so I don't see a problem with it. As you said it's all about intent and Heinze's intent is to defend his space and not to injure anyone . Great player one of Fergies best signings and already a fans favourite and legend in the making.

Its only a matter of time before he gets his comeuppance though. I think it was you that said before that its his style (and typical South American for a defender) to dance all over the line, but never step over it. Refs arent wise to what he does at the minute, but they will be after a year or so.

There were a few incidents last night where you knew he was fouling people, but the way he made it look he got away with it. And fair play to him, if he can get away with it, he looks an excellent player.

talla

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Its only a matter of time before he gets his comeuppance though. I think it was you that said before that its his style (and typical South American for a defender) to dance all over the line, but never step over it. Refs arent wise to what he does at the minute, but they will be after a year or so.

There were a few incidents last night where you knew he was fouling people, but the way he made it look he got away with it. And fair play to him, if he can get away with it, he looks an excellent player.

Actually The M uppet can't take the blame on that one, it was me

Villain

Trust me Heinze knows what he's doing, he will get caught out and get punished for it.

BTW Dirkey Wynne just beacuse I didn't mention Berkamps or Shearer's elbow doesn't mean I'm bashing United. It's just I mentioned this in the United-Villa thread and very few agreed with me.

cournioni

irish1 wrote:

Trust me Heinze knows what he's doing, he will get caught out and get punished for it.

Yeah, he intentionally goes out to elbow people... :rolleyes:

Villain

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Yeah, he intentionally goes out to elbow people... :rolleyes:

I didn't say using the elbow I said using his arms, theres a big difference, If you watched the whole of the Villa game you would know what I mean, and yes players do intentionally foul. So go roll your eyes somewhere else although nobody will probably see them under your red tinted glasses

dirkey_wynne

irish1 wrote:

I didn't say using the elbow I said using his arms, theres a big difference, If you watched the whole of the Villa game you would know what I mean, and yes players do intentionally foul. So go roll your eyes somewhere else although nobody will probably see them under your red tinted glasses

I'm not sure he'll get caught out for it to be honest, in the long run that is. I mean Bergkamp has been getting away with it for years....

Oh, and as for watching the whole of the Villa game...I was AT the Villa game so I think I'm in a pretty good position to judge.

The Rooster

You're absolutely spot on irish1.

I'd love if Henize played for my team, but there's no doubt that he's a dirty player. He'll never go through a game without clattering somebody on the head with some part of his arm, whether it be his finger, hand, forearm, elbow or shoulder. Usually a combination and more than once!

And interesting to see he's combined this "South American style" with the Man Utd style of trying to intimidate referrees by voiciferously complaining about every single decision that goes against them

dirkey_wynne

irish1 wrote:

I didn't say using the elbow I said using his arms, theres a big difference, If you watched the whole of the Villa game you would know what I mean, and yes players do intentionally foul. So go roll your eyes somewhere else although nobody will probably see them under your red tinted glasses

talla wrote:

Dirky-Wynne, don't bring the Chelea match into this, it has nothing to do with this match and is off topic.

Villa game must be on topic... (and by the way i don't think Irish1 should be warned for this, as I was, as I think he's using the game to illustrate, similarly to what I was, but I would like some consistency.)

BolBill

Brian017 wrote:

Something did happen they showed it on MOTD before the match.

Nevile was targeted because he and some of the other Utd players were supposed to wear anti-racism tracksuit tops as did all the Arsenal players, obviously it got up Vieiras wick.

cournioni

irish1 wrote:

So go roll your eyes somewhere else although nobody will probably see them under your red tinted glasses

Good one, very original...

Heinze plays within the rules of the game, simple as. Stop moaning about Solano not being effective against United just because Heinze is a good defender. Quite frankly I don't see how Heinze was any worse than Solano was in that game, putting his hand in Silvestre's face not once but twice.

He had a great last 20 minutes against Arsenal and probably kept United in the game. So please stop trying to take all of the credit away from him with your wild accusations.

SteM

BolBill wrote:

Nevile was targeted because he and some of the other Utd players were supposed to wear anti-racism tracksuit tops as did all the Arsenal players, obviously it got up Vieiras wick.

Not according to the football gospel that is The Sun!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2002390000-2005052029,00.html

PATRICK VIEIRA taunted Gary Neville as he branded him a hacker in the Highbury tunnel.

Arsenal’s captain targeted the Manchester United star following the warm-up before Tuesday night’s stormy showdown.

It was the clash which eventually led to war between Vieira and Roy Keane.

Vieira said: “Let’s see if you are going to kick everyone at Highbury tonight like you did at Old Trafford.”

kida

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Good one, very original...

Heinze plays within the rules of the game, simple as. Stop moaning about Solano not being effective against United just because Heinze is a good defender. Quite frankly I don't see how Heinze was any worse than Solano was in that game, putting his hand in Silvestre's face not once but twice.

He had a great last 20 minutes against Arsenal and probably kept United in the game. So please stop trying to take all of the credit away from him with your wild accusations.

You have to remeber Solano is the best value for money signing ever in the premiership :rolleyes: so he had to have used illegal tactics to stop him.

Villain

LOL, I'll leave solano for the other thread.

Pornapster I have said Heinze is a class player, probably the best in his poistion in the premiership. But most non-UTD fans agree with me, he uses his arms way too much.

I'll it at that.

Villain

sorry I know this off topic but look at this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=222637

BaZmO*

irish1 wrote:

sorry I know this off topic but look at this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=222637

Why would you link that in a thread about Arsenal -v- Utd.?
And besides there has already been 2 threads about this in the Soccer Forum.
I'm not getting at you, just letting you know.

B.

Villain

BaZmO* wrote:

Why would link that in a thread about Arsenal -v- Utd.?
And besides there has already been 2 threads about this in the Soccer Forum.
I'm not getting at you, just letting you know.

B.

Sorry just found it and didn't see it anywhere in the forum, I didn't want to start a new thread coz I guessed it may have been seen before, apologies. Mod's feel free to delete.

BolBill

SteM wrote:

Not according to the football gospel that is The Sun!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2002390000-2005052029,00.html

Thats me swayed !!!! (fickle moi? never !!!)

SteM

BolBill wrote:

Thats me swayed !!!! (fickle moi? never !!!)

Hey, you can't argue with a 'newspaper' that serves you topless chicks everyday!