Article: Private firm set to run speed traps

Seth Brundle

what you all knew was going to happen...
from the Sunday Business Post 30/1/05

By Barry O'Kelly
The Minister for Justice, Michael McDowell, is expected to propose the introduction of a private operator to carry out speed checks on the roads.

The contractor would help run a new integrated system with the potential to prosecute motorists for other offences, such as having no tax, no NCT certificate or breaking traffic lights. Gardai would bring the cases to court.

A draft report by a government-appointed committee is believed to have made these recommendations under which the private company would carry out covert and overt speed camera checks.

The committee, comprising the Garda, the National Roads Authority and the Departments of Transport and Justice, is expected to finalise its report in the next two weeks.

Sources said civilians from the outsourced operator could be employed for the monitoring, detecting and processing of prosecutions. New laws will be required to underpin the scheme.

It is believed to have the full backing of Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy.

The non-intercept speed checks would be carried out at accident blackspots around the country. Gardai would decide on the locations.

More than 1,000 blackspots are believed to have been identified around the country.

McDowell confirmed to The Sunday Business Post that plans are well advanced for the project. Detailed proposals will be brought to government in the coming months.

He stressed that the Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen, would have the lead role in introducing the new legislation, if the scheme was approved by the government.

McDowell said the project was part of a broader strategy to ensure the maximum number of Gardai is available for front line policing.

This would involve the outsourcing of non-core Garda work.

He said the integration of computer records could potentially lead to prosecutions for multiple offences, such as cases of motorists having no tax or running a red light.

The idea would be to have a full file and full integration of all the computer records in relation to all of these things, he said.

You can also integrate it to send out letters to the registered owners, informing them of the infraction of the law and asking them to hand up the statutory penalties, telling them they will be prosecuted if they don't and you can integrate that one further step with the issuing of court summonses.

ou can also produce by that system draft statutory declarations which would be acceptable in court as evidence in the absence of them being contradicted.

As part of this process, a document would emerge in which a person would say that on a given day, our records show that a car was driven at 80kph in a 60-kilometre zone, the make of the car was X, the registration was Y, we observed that on the given day, this is true to the best of my knowledge and belief - and that would get a conviction, unless somebody came to court and successfully defended the allegations.

Our man in Havana

Expect constitutional challenges galore!

BrianD

Does anyone know of another country where this sort of outsourcing has taken place? I would have no problem with it if we see fair and diverse speed checks right accross the road network. Something tells me that it won't be.

One has to ask, what exactly do the Gardai do these days???

Stephen

I can't see this being fair and balanced. A private firm will be looking to make the maximum amount of money. Looks like a great motive to put speedtraps in stupid places where its like shooting fish in a barrel.

Seth Brundle

I can't see what you all mean about fairness. Apparently it will operate in a simialr fashion to the clampers in Dublin & Galway....

ambro25

Well, you can expect Constitutional AND EU challenges from me if I ever get caught by a private (i.e. not-sworn) individual and prosecuted on this basis:

What would the difference be between me buying then using a speed gun today and filing speeding lawsuits against every offender I clock, as a private individual, and the proposed system?

This is going to open such a can of worms...

Our man in Havana

The Thing is they (unsworn scammers) will turn over their "evidence" to a member of the Gardai who will then issue a summons so it won't be a private company prosecuting you. It's a bit like the traffic watch situation where a civilian reports you to the cops and they issue the summons.

What I do object to is giving these people uniforms and the power to stop people for speeding and nct offences which there is no power with the gardai to prosecute at present let alone a rent a cop.

I suspect that these scammers will be classed as auxillary gardai and sworn as such.

I am looking forward to this so i can challenge these feckers in court.

galactus

BrianD wrote:

Does anyone know of another country where this sort of outsourcing has taken place? I would have no problem with it if we see fair and diverse speed checks right accross the road network. Something tells me that it won't be.

One has to ask, what exactly do the Gardai do these days???

Other countries (developed ones naturally) have traffic police.

Nuttzz

I welcome this, private firms & their employees will be much easier to bribe than the cops. Wave a tenner at a clamper as he is putting a shoe on your car and watch him disappear....

bop1977

More than 1,000 blackspots are believed to have been identified around the country.


if the foocin pigs know of these accident black spots how come they only target the newest straightest streches of roads with speed checkpoints? it makes me so mad.

Boggle

I can't see this being fair and balanced. A private firm will be looking to make the maximum amount of money. Looks like a great motive to put speedtraps in stupid places where its like shooting fish in a barrel.

And they'll flag you for the bare minimum over the speed limit. Wonder how effectively they'll monitor the calibration of equipment....

ambro25

Wonder if there may be an opening for legitimately owning & using speedtrap detecting devices, then... since private individuals will own & use speed trapping devices.

The following in France, but may have some implications here if there is equivalent legislation / regulations:

Years ago, I got off speeding because the cops had pulled me on the basis of their speedo (must admit I did overtake them at over 90mph, never saw the unmarked telltale signs:lots of aerials etc.) - to which I argued successfully in Court that it was neither homologated (e.g. on official list of 'recognised' speed trap devices) nor calibrated: that one was easy - harder if it had been a homologated speed trap.

I also got off speeding once because the radar (the 'barbecue', those who've driven in France will know what I'm on about) was not located according to published regulations (which stipulated -and still do- that it couldn't be located in a bend, under power lines, etc, etc.). But it's a good job I always carried one of these disposable cameras - would have had some problems disproving coppers based on my word alone.

Finally, I didn't get off one, but got off light (because no clear-cut case for the prosecution), because I refused to sign the paperwork on the spot (road-side) and I contested the speed measurement = no admission, so bigger burden of proof on prosecution. I'm aware of the 2 pts / 4 pts here, though - but then I don't have an Irish license , so I reckon I'd still go for it.

All in all, private speed measuring (note: they're not talking about private enforcing, only trapping) - carry a disposable camera, learn any kind of regulations relating to use of speed traps and measurements therewith, and re-register your car in the name of your gran (who hasn't got a license ).

Seth Brundle

ambro25 wrote:

Wonder if there may be an opening for legitimately owning & using speedtrap detecting devices, then... since private individuals will own & use speed trapping devices.

apparently they are now illegal to own, use, sell, look at...

Our man in Havana

Nothing to stop you from buying in the north, I am sure there are loads of reputable stores that will only be too glad to sell to us southerners.

What are the chances of the stasi ahem! gardai catching you with one?

jhegarty

kbannon wrote:

apparently they are now illegal to own, use, sell, look at...

i was under the impression they is was only illegal to use , no own or have... could be wrong though...

anyone legal type people around ?

528i

they're being outlawed in the UK shortly also, the only option is to keep the boot down at this stage and try to evade capture, or drive within the speed limit, ha, like thats an option.

Seth Brundle

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/transport/motoring/road_traffic_speed_limits_in_ireland.html

It is an offence for anyone to use a speed meter detector in any vehicle in Ireland under the Road Traffic (Speed Meter Detectors) Regulations, 1991. Under this legislation, it is also an offence to import, fit and supply speed meter detectors and jammers.

The Gardai are empowered to seize this equipment if it is found in your vehicle or in your possession under the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876.

stratos

I got my little picture of my car from the boys in blue. I'm gonna have my day in court though. If everyone went to court that would be the end of the system. I'm not against the whole idea, it's I was clocked at 38 in a 30 I was in a stream of traffic on a lovley sunny day on a straight, wide, country road!

Seth Brundle

On this note, I just want to thank the three considerate motorists who flashed me and other oncoming traffic today. Normally I don't think I condone these actions but today was something special.
Driving outbound on Dublin's Merrion rd. I eventually saw what they were flashing us for - I caught a glimpse of yellow, just a tiny bit though, sticking out from a tree. When I got closer (constantly removing my eyes from the road to ensure I was under the limit) I saw garda dickfupp there literally hiding behind the tree with his hairdryer.
I am totally for speed traps. However, I believe it is better to deter motorists from speeding and not this dispickable act of hiding just in order to increase revenue and statistics. What garda dickfupp was doing had absolutely nothing to do with road safety.
At least the new private company will not be doing this (from what I can see)!

Silvera

From my understanding, a private company would operate unmarked vans and maintain fixed speed cameras. I don't have a problem with this if it was done fairly, but as most here have said, it most likely will NOT be done fairly.

Why don't they take the Aussie route - they actually advertise where speed traps will be each day on the radio !

And in New Zealand, the police use changeable roadside signs (made of canvas) which warns motorists that unmarked police vehicles are in the area to combat speeding (or drink driving).
I know, because I saw these signs when I was driving around NZ last year.

The point being to make motorists aware of speeding - not just use them (speeding motorists) as a revenue earner.

Victor

Silvera wrote:

The point being to make motorists aware of speeding - not just use them (speeding motorists) as a revenue earner.

But speeding enforcement doesn't make money .....

Would people prefer speed cameras to be operated by:

A Private firm
The Garda
Civil Servants

Seth Brundle

Victor, this has all been discussed before. Most people prefer appropriate speeding enforcement, not the revenue/stats boosters they give out on the better quality roads no matter who is operating it.
However, without a doubt the current system is not working. Gardai hiding behind trees or placing Gatso vans on a dual carriageway / motorway is not enforcement that has a positive effect. It criminalises people who otherwise would never break the law. It is a haphazard policy that is thrown at the public who swallow it. Why is the same level of enforcement not done with drink driving? maybe because of the close connection between politics and owning a pub!

mackerski

Victor wrote:

Would people prefer speed cameras to be operated by:

A Private firm
The Garda
Civil Servants

Depends - which of the above will apply some common sense to the process?

I wonder what the rollout time on this new scheme is. The longer they stall it, the longer it'll be before they have to admit that there's still no magic that makes bad driving at the speed limit suddenly a lot safer than bad driving a bit over the speed limit. But with any luck when the election comes round the scheme still won't have returned enough data, so it'll be filed under "a lot done".

Then they can pack out the red flags again. Either that or go for the unprecedented option of prosecuting for muppetry.

Dermot

galactus

Victor wrote:

But speeding enforcement doesn't make money .....

Would people prefer speed cameras to be operated by:

A Private firm
The Garda
Civil Servants

If speeding enforcement doesn't make money then we won't see any private operators taking over from the gardai.

edmund_f

kbannon wrote:

Gardai hiding behind trees or placing Gatso vans on a dual carriageway / motorway is not enforcement that has a positive effect. It criminalises people who otherwise would never break the law. It is a haphazard policy that is thrown at the public who swallow it.

perfect description of what is going on today.

I wonder does anyone have a perfect description of what we can do about it?

ambro25

edmund_f wrote:

I wonder does anyone have a perfect description of what we can do about it?

[not mutually exclusive of one another ]

_'Spot the Gardai' & temporarily 'break down' in front of the bush
_'Spot the Gardai' & drive up-&-down the stretch of road 10 mph below the speed limit (until they get the message & go)
_Drum up support for automatically contesting fines
_Publicising every such occurence (contesting the fine) with supporting the fine(d) person ( ) outside the Court on the day
_Treat GATSOs 'Périphérique de Paris'-stylee (don't ask, suffice to say a baseball bat is involved - bordering on civic disobedience, here)

Well, that's for starters... I hear mirrors work wonders on the new laser-based speedtraps, something to do with returning impossibly-high or low speed readings (a Renault 4L clocked at 130-odd mph in France last year :eek: )

magpie

Radar/Laser detectors only way to go TBH. There's a crowd up north that do them, and if the worst the cops can do is confiscate them, so be it.

Wave a tenner at a clamper as he is putting a shoe on your car and watch him disappear....

Have you ever tried this?

'Spot the Gardai' & temporarily 'break down' in front of the bush
_'Spot the Gardai' & drive up-&-down the stretch of road 10 mph below the speed limit (until they get the message & go)
_Drum up support for automatically contesting fines
_Publicising every such occurence (contesting the fine) with supporting the fine(d) person ( ) outside the Court on the day
_Treat GATSOs 'Périphérique de Paris'-stylee (don't ask, suffice to say a baseball bat is involved - bordering on civic disobedience, here)

Hear, Hear! Time to form an Irish Drivers' Association methinks.

Nuttzz

magpie wrote:

Have you ever tried this?

Yep, last Sunday, I was going home anyway, herself had hands full of shopping and the ticket was out about 30 mins, I dropped a tenner beside my wheel and off he went.

Seth Brundle

AA slams plan to let private firms operate speed cameras
from http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/02/01/story187273.html

The AA has warned the Government that motorists will have no confidence in road safety initiatives if the speed camera system is operated by a private company.

The Government has suggested that the service might be privatised to free up garda resources, but the AA said this would lead to a focus on income-generation rather than road safety.

Spokesman Conor Faughnan said: "The worst thing we want to see is a bounty hunter-type regime where automated speed cameras are deployed all over the network purely to catch motorists out.

"The cameras need to go at accident black-spots."

parsi

Silvera wrote:

From my understanding, a private company would operate unmarked vans and maintain fixed speed cameras. I don't have a problem with this if it was done fairly, but as most here have said, it most likely will NOT be done fairly.

Why don't they take the Aussie route - they actually advertise where speed traps will be each day on the radio !

And in New Zealand, the police use changeable roadside signs (made of canvas) which warns motorists that unmarked police vehicles are in the area to combat speeding (or drink driving).
I know, because I saw these signs when I was driving around NZ last year.

The point being to make motorists aware of speeding - not just use them (speeding motorists) as a revenue earner.

The French publicise where their fixed radars are :

http://www.securiteroutiere.equipement.gouv.fr/infos-ref/regles/csa/csa.html

Boggle

stratos wrote:

I got my little picture of my car from the boys in blue. I'm gonna have my day in court though. If everyone went to court that would be the end of the system. I'm not against the whole idea, it's I was clocked at 38 in a 30 I was in a stream of traffic on a lovley sunny day on a straight, wide, country road!

Whats your defence gonna be? (not mocking - genuinely interested...)

Were you def breaking the limit or are you just taking their word? What kind of scamera was it - gatso van or fixed?