Diving

kida

The new FA head has said he feels this is one area that needs to be clamped down on. If a definite dive then a straight red should follow, if not sure the ref can make a note and refer it to video evidence after the game. Visoe evidnce should also be used fo major incidents that the officials miss.

Take last nights game Arsenal - United match, Viera and Cole were both guilty and even though not replayed as much I think Ljundberg also was near the end. Look at the Viera incident in slow-mo. his leg is moving before Rooneys got near him(who realised what he was going to do and stopped). Viera assumed Rooney was going to follow through and was preparing the theatrics. Coles was just a joke, wasn't even a good dive.

If it was made a red card offence it wouldmake a big difference.
All teams are guilty of it and it needs to stamped out.

The Muppet

It will be interesting to see what ther FA think sof some of last nights incidents. Pires was clearly seen kicking Fletcher which must be seen as violent conduct. I wonder will they be taking action.

I hope they do crack down on the diving [cheating] ANY player gui;ty of diving should be sent off or the ref is in doubt the FA should take action after the game.

Villain

Yes but the issue is the referees ability to see whether it is a dive or not, and that can be hard going on one view in real time only.

I mean imagine if the ref sends a player off because he has dived then a few minutes a member of the other team dives but he can't see it probably and thinks it was a foul and gives a penalty, that would cause serious problems, the reason most refs don't book people for diving is because their afraid they will look like fools if the replays show he didn't dive.

I do however think video evidence could be used and players charged for "Bringing the game into Disrepute" after the game if it is found that they deliberately tried to cheat.

Just my 2 cents

kida

There have been some blatant ones lately - Hadj-Diouf and Cole are 2 of there more recent ones. The FA seem content to use video evidence for some offences and not others. That Bolton guy must feel hard done by.

p.pete

Wayne Rooney in the previous Arsenal match....

I think it's an ugly feature of the game no matter who's doing it. It's very difficult for the ref to spot during the game and I don't think play should be held up over it to watch a replay. Fines / bans should be handed out using video evidence after the match though.

Another thing which I think should be clamped down on is players arguing to the referee over every decision. Listening to BBC's radio commentry of last nights match there was a lot of that going on from both teams, and indeed throughout the game as a whole. This should be a lot easier to stamp out then diving - player gets in the referees face, player gets a yellow. Player persists, player gets a red. It's harsh but it'd be stamped out fairly quickly.

As AF said after the Chelsea game, does Lampard think he can influence the ref? there should be no need to talk to the ref and questioning / trying to influence decisions should be a yellow.

Villain

I have said many times it's a disgrace the way players speak to refs, and I asked my brothers who are referees how come they get away with when in every local league in this country you'd be sent off for foul an abusive language. The answer I got was that it is their livelyhood so tehy have a right to question the decision, but I think they get away with far too much mouthing.

It doesn't set a good example to the young audience.

p.pete

irish1 wrote:

The answer I got was that it is their livelyhood so tehy have a right to question the decision, but I think they get away with far too much mouthing.

It doesn't set a good example to the young audience.

Their livelyhood is to play football, the referee making decisions is part of that. If questioning the referee started to effect their livelyhood through bannings and fines then they would stop quick enough.

Keane had no respect towards the referee whatsoever before the start of the match, looking away from him when he was being spoken to. Basicly the referee was little more then a nuisance stopping him from getting to Vieira to have a rant.

Like you say - it's not a good example to the audience and the kids copy and then things get worse, just look at Wayne Rooney

<edit>

Sorry to United fans for using examples of Keane and Rooney, that's just what's coming to mind at the moment. I know Arsenal have discipline issues as do Liverpool and any other team you can think of.

DoctorEdgeWild

Imo, diving is a worse crime than a heat of the moment kick out kind of thing. Violent conduct is one thing and of course should be punished with an apres match red card regardless of what the ref saw/noted.

But diving is too hard for a ref to have to handle, in a game than can be 80 yards away in a few seconds, video evidence should be used to convict divers and they should be punished with long term bans. Fines mean f'k all to guys earning the kind of money that Prem footballers do. I wonder how many diving fines would equal a goal bonus for the likes of Diouf/Pires. Would it be economically in thier intrest to continue?

I would like to see something like 5-game bans coming in for blatant and provable dives. that would make players think twice about doing it.

BolBill

kida wrote:

There have been some blatant ones lately - Hadj-Diouf and Cole are 2 of there more recent ones. The FA seem content to use video evidence for some offences and not others. That Bolton guy must feel hard done by.

And as usual you neglect the Man U players kida. Wayne Rooney against Arsenal at Old Trafford, complete dive and nothing done about it (been an England international does help) and Ronaldo!!!(not the good one), sure the lad would be sent off every second week

wheres me jumpa

i think it is just part of the game now so we may just get used to it. its ironic when a defender goes down easily its clever defending but when an attacking player goes down its cheating.

ref's have enough controversy surrounding them without having to throw out a red card for a dive. plus very often (except ashley cole last night) there is actually contact and the players just exaggerate it. so its too much of a grey area

The Muppet

BolBill wrote:

And as usual you neglect the Man U players kida.

Is there some new rule that makes it compulsory to include United players to make the point valid. Kida used the examples he wanted to,if you want to use other theres no one stopping you. United Supporters accept that their players can be as quilty as anyones else . Have you anything to add to the discussion apart fro United bashing that is ?

BolBill wrote:

and Ronaldo!!!(not the good one),

I,ll bow to your surperior knowledge on bad players after all you seen enough of them over the past fifteeen years or so but before you write Ronaldo off I would remind you that the lad is only 19. IMO He is going to be a fantastic player for united.

kida

Thanks for standing up for me Muppett - He is on ignore so I don't see his posts.
All teams are guilty of Diving, even United but Fergie seems to have had a word with Ronaldo - he is not as bad as he was.
It needs to be stamped out across the board. Video evidence shoudl be used without a doubt but for blatant ones where there is no doubt(100% certain) - Viera earlier in the season vs Liverpool for example it should be a straight red. Other less obvious ones would be reviewd afterwards. Once the first couple of ref cards or bans have happened players will be less likelry to dive.

p.pete

The Muppet wrote:

Is there some new rule that makes it compulsory to include United players to make the point valid.

I think the point that was being tried to be made was that Kida's initial post for an issue that is very widespread included all Arsenal examples. Indeed one of my posts has lots of united examples (I apologised for my lack of imagination), and now we've united fans sticking up for united and vice versa - gets us nowhere really.

It's a valid topic of conversation without turning into a game of tit for tat :mad:

BolBill

The Muppet wrote:

Is there some new rule that makes it compulsory to include United players to make the point valid. Kida used the examples he wanted to,if you want to use other theres no one stopping you. United Supporters accept that their players can be as quilty as anyones else . Have you anything to add to the discussion apart fro United bashing that is ?



I,ll bow to your surperior knowledge on bad players after all you seen enough of them over the past fifteeen years or so but before you write Ronaldo off I would remind you that the lad is only 19. IMO He is going to be a fantastic player for united.

Nah I'll bow to your superior knowledge, sure you seem to know everything, I'll get me coat, I have no business being here.

jank

Welcome to the soccer forum where unless you agree with everyone else your a called a troll.

I thought this was all behind us lads

The Muppet

p.pete wrote:

It's a valid topic of conversation without turning into a game of tit for tat :mad:

I agree P Pete which is why I put ANY underlined and in bold in my post so as to indicate I meant all players. IMO Bolbills post like a lot of his posts was just United knocking and point scoring which is why I repleid as I did.

p.pete

Kind of what I was talking about Muppet - fans of one team seeing posts scoring points against their team and then needing to avenge it.

Maybe the morning after an Arsenal - ManU game isn't the best time in the world to be trying to discuss this sensibly. Either way I hope the FA and refs stamps down pretty hard on diving and harassing of refs etc.

The Muppet

p.pete wrote:

Kind of what I was talking about Muppet - fans of one team seeing posts scoring points against their team and then needing to avenge it.

Maybe the morning after an Arsenal - ManU game isn't the best time in the world to be trying to discuss this sensibly. Either way I hope the FA and refs stamps down pretty hard on diving and harassing of refs etc.

Sorry pete I mixed you up with Mike there. I agree with you but a no one was arguing that united players don't dive. Kida was attacked because he didn't use a United player in his example, there was no need for that. I see your point about replying though, maybe Kida has the right idea about ignoring the crap.

p.pete

The Muppet wrote:

maybe Kida has the right idea about ignoring the crap.

Having seen him posting on several Liverpool related threads recently I certainly wouldn't accuse him of doing that

Shred

I do think players should be punished for deliberate dives but I don't think it's possible to enforce this while the game is in progress. As has been said before, a ref has one view of an incident and it can be too hard to call it in a matter of seconds. Video evidence should be brought into play after the game and then offenders should receive a fine and a ban for 3 or more games. That would put a stop to it

BolBill

No I was merely pointing out that kida has a slightly biast opinion. Anyway, nobody is losing their heads and its all relatively calm arguing and we ALL agree that the topic is a good one and that diving should be outlawed. I'm sure we could all come up with plenty of examples. Look at Baros, he tends to fall over a tad easily.

LoneGunM@n

Diving is rampant now throughout the Premiership ... I know it's an old topic that has been discussed to the point of distraction, but since the influx of european players has increased, so has the instances of diving!!

Cole's dive last night was one of the most disgusting dives I have ever seen ... Rivaldo's being the worst!! I agree that Rooney dived against Arsenal in the last match, but there was NO no contact by Keane on Cole ... He was doing it to get Keane carded or sent off!!

The only way to remove diving from the game or at least curb it is to put strict laws in place that will penalise the player, such as a 2/3 game suspension!!

por

If the ref is 100% sure in his own mind (and after talking to his assistant if needs be) that the player took at dive then it's a straight red card no questions asked.
If at a later time video evidence shows that there was contact this can be recinded or reduced to a yellow if the player is making a meal of it
I know its harsh if a player is sent off and the card then recinded but it will cut out the blatant dives at are appearing nowadays.

yop

Totally agree with Shred, it should be looked at AFTER the match and a good ban given.
Too many players are making it an all to common part of the game, this year personally I think been the worst with Ronaldo, Pires and Viera been the worst offenders.
The latest thing I saw in the park the last day was kids at it, thinking it was great fun to dive like a fool when someone went near them

EVERY team has one or more players who make a living from diving, time it was stamped out

cournioni

Nice display of Olympic diving from Ashley Cole and Vieira last night. And although Pires was probably fouled, he certainly did do a swan dive in the penalty area which is probably why he didn't get the penalty.

Jivin Turkey

I agree that diving should be punished, but I think it would be too difficult and provoke an even worse situation if the ref were to send off people during the game. I mean imagine the situation last night, where Pires got taken down for a peno and say the ref had sent him off thinking he had dived, not only would Arsenal not have gotten their peno but they would be a man down too!

The ref should be able to go back over the video after the game, and award cards for diving, if that would mean a player getting his second of the game it should be a one match suspension. I think the idea of banning people for 3 games at a time is a bit ridiculous. It would put too much pressure on the refs.

The Muppet wrote:

It will be interesting to see what ther FA think sof some of last nights incidents. Pires was clearly seen kicking Fletcher which must be seen as violent conduct. I wonder will they be taking action.

I think they cant do anything because the ref took action at the time and booked him.

Cianan2

If you saw the Chelsea match earlier,at the very end somebody tried to head the ball out of cech's hand,and Makalele(i think it was him) grabbed him and let go. Yer man made a meal of it. They always do,even if they're not normally the diving type. I would (never dive,but) if the opportunity arose,it might give you that distinct advantage.....

MrJoeSoap

Supposedly one of the best players in the league.

case n basket

The Muppet wrote:

Is there some new rule that makes it compulsory to include United players to make the point valid. Kida used the examples he wanted to,if you want to use other theres no one stopping you. United Supporters accept that their players can be as quilty as anyones else . Have you anything to add to the discussion apart fro United bashing that is ?

Glancing over the posts on this thread the anti-Arsenal bias is quite striking.

At any rate, I agree that there should be a major clamp down on diving. Post match bannings based on video evidence should certainly brought in.

There are a few players who are particularily annoying to watch re: diving. I'm sick to death of Vieira's antics, perhaps if he concentrated more on his football and less on trying to move to Real Madrid as well as hitting the deck, us gooners wouldn't find our team 13 points off the top of the table. El Hadji Diouf has to be one of the most hated players in the league thanks to his diving, spitting and all round disgusting behaviour, while the Premier League of Pro-Divers (tm) consisting of the likes of Ronaldo, Duff, Pires are highly irritating. Not least because they do it so often that they have refined the art and can make it quite difficult for the ref to know if it is a dive or not.

Which brings me on to those who evidently don't do it very often due to them being so bad at it - special mentions to Eidur Gudjohnsen, Gary Neville, Yakubu and David Dunn. Gary Neville's dive and subsequent thumping of the ground, McManaman headbutt and sending off against Man City last season has to be up there among the funniest footballing moments last year

The Muppet

case n basket wrote:

Glancing over the posts on this thread the anti-Arsenal bias is quite striking.

I agree with all you said but why did you use my quote. I never mentioned Arsenal in this thread? IMO there all as bad as one another Ronaldo included .

smemon

whilst it is stupid and highly unsporting i do believe it evens itself out over a season.

every club has one or 2 that are prone to diving and they all do it given half a chance. id say about about 90% they get. to stamp it out would be almost impossible at this stage as it happens every game nowadays.

i agree, if found guilty on video evidence they should be banned for a match but also the club fined. that way clubs would frown upon it as a whole as it would effect everyone. unless of course your chelsea and want to get rid of loose change.

Chucky the tree

a 3 match ban more like it. fine the player and the club.

Balfa

Sorry to dredge up this old thread, but diving is something that really irritates. Every time I watch football, i get more and more disheartened by it, and it really puts me off. I'm dreading the CL final today because, especially with an italian team in it, there'll be far too much diving, and it will really infuriate me.

smemon wrote:

whilst it is stupid and highly unsporting i do believe it evens itself out over a season.

Maybe it evens itself out for the teams, but not the fans who want to see a competition of skills.

A few things i think would help remove diving and vastly improve football for fans:

1. Why is there only one ref on the pitch and two assistants? American footbal has 5 refs on the field, and more officials off the field. You don't get nearly as much acting (it still exists, a tiny bit) in that sport than in football. Basketball has 3 refs on the court, but they have to watch less than half the players and 1/15th of the area. Put more pairs of eyes on the pitch and you'll get better calls.

2. Why do players put hands on each other. This is supposed to be totally illegal. They were supposed to clamp down shirt pulling in the '94 world cup, but it's as dominant in the game as ever. You should be able to use your strength to bump somebody off the ball with your shoulders, but raise your hands, instant yellow.

3. Why not have an extra official or two watching replays constantly during the game, who can contact the fouth official after making a definitive decision on a dive, and the fourth official can automatically award a red card, or get the ref to do it. It might be five minutes after the fact, but better late than never. I think this would be even more effective than handing out post-match penalties, though that would be good, too.

4. Even if a player is tripped, it used to be the case where a player would want to try and maintain his balance, and keep going, and this was something that was terrific to watch. Maradonna dodging tackles was amazing. This doesn't happen any more because players just want to fall on the ground and take the free kick. If a referee deems that a player could have maintained his balance after an unfair tackle, but simply chose to go down (that whole dragging your foot into the tackle, instead of just stepping over it), the team of the tackling player should get the free kick instead.

5. All the above will only work if the enforcement is strong and consistent.


I badly want to watch a good honest game of football with no crapness. Everyone wants a better spectacle. Diving makes a mockery of football. It's considered a joke over here by american football fans. Why can't the FA, FIFA, UEFA and everybody else put the fans first and do something about it. I'd definitely watch more football if they did, and hence their revenue would increase.