Bank Robbery...

oscarBravo

cdebru wrote:

I know how the system works

...and yet, you continue to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of it.

cdebru wrote:

the PD vote was up 0.7%

The first preference vote, yes. PR/STV means that the rest of the preferences get counted. This means that the number of first preferences is not a reliable indicator, on its own, of a party's support.

cdebru wrote:

the figures are that the majority of people did not favour a return of the government as their first choice

...which doesn't matter a damn, because our electoral system is sophisticated enough to take into account lower preferences.

cdebru wrote:

as for transfers these are given for various reasons geography etc

The reasons for transfers are irrelevant. When a ballot is cast, the candidates are selected in order of preference. Giving a candidate a second preference is not exactly a vote of no confidence.

cdebru

oscarBravo wrote:

...and yet, you continue to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of it. The first preference vote, yes. PR/STV means that the rest of the preferences get counted. This means that the number of first preferences is not a reliable indicator, on its own, of a party's support. ...which doesn't matter a damn, because our electoral system is sophisticated enough to take into account lower preferences. The reasons for transfers are irrelevant. When a ballot is cast, the candidates are selected in order of preference. Giving a candidate a second preference is not exactly a vote of no confidence.

I understand the system completely

first preferences votes are exactly what they say they are

they are the measure of a parties real support

the fact is that the majority of people who voted in 2002 did not want this government returned as their first choice
that is it end of story
the other fact is that the PDs support was up 0.7% to 4% of the electorate

that is their mandate
earthmans post gave the impression that the Irish electorate had flocked to the PDs in 2002 that is not the case
he said that they had nearly trebled their TDs that is not true

oscarBravo

cdebru wrote:

first preferences votes are exactly what they say they are

they are the measure of a parties real support

If "real support" is the sort of flag-waving that is comparable to supporting a football team, then maybe you have a point. The Irish electoral system is designed to allow for a little more subtlety of expression.

cdebru wrote:

the fact is that the majority of people who voted in 2002 did not want this government returned as their first choice
that is it end of story

What are you saying: PR/STV is undemocratic, in that it subverts the will of the people by allowing them to vote for parties they don't want in government?

cdebru

oscarBravo wrote:

If "real support" is the sort of flag-waving that is comparable to supporting a football team, then maybe you have a point. The Irish electoral system is designed to allow for a little more subtlety of expression.

no what the electoral system does is allow people to vote for the party or people they actually want to vote for and not have to fear that their vote will be wasted or have to vote against someone instead of for someone as we have seen in the US and the UK

oscarBravo wrote:

What are you saying: PR/STV is undemocratic, in that it subverts the will of the people by allowing them to vote for parties they don't want in government?

no PR/STV is very democratic it is probably one of the best systems available
I am merely pointing out an undeniable fact that as a first choice most people did not vote for FF/pd

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

earthmans post gave the impression that the Irish electorate had flocked to the PDs in 2002 that is not the case

I never said that at all and I challenge you to show me where I said it...
I merely pointed out that the government parties went to the electorate as a team in 2002 and were returned with a significant mandate.

he said that they had nearly trebled their TDs that is not true

My apologies, they doubled not trebled their representation from 4 to 8 which taken in tandem with Fianna Fáils result of the time combined with Oscar Bravo's explanation to you on how we democratically elect our governments debunks what was said about the majority believing that the pd's have too much influence in government.

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

I am merely pointing out an undeniable fact that as a first choice most people did not vote for FF/pd

But thats a moot point because no party ever to my knowledge since the foundation of the state got more than 50% of the first preference vote with PR.

You are mentioning this in an effort to say that most people didnt wat the return of the current government at election time - but that doesnt wash
For example to extend your logic you can say that more people distrust FG than FF or more people distrust labour than FG etc etc- it is moot

oscarBravo

cdebru wrote:

no what the electoral system does is allow people to vote for the party or people they actually want to vote for

What the electoral system does is allow people to vote, in order of preference, for the people they would like to see fill the seats available in their constituency.

cdebru wrote:

and not have to fear that their vote will be wasted or have to vote against someone instead of for someone as we have seen in the US and the UK

It's true that PR/STV gives a somewhat clearer indication of voter affiliations, and as such is a clearer representation of the true sentiment in the electorate. As you point out, FPTP systems tend to make it impossible for minority parties to get any real representation at all due the the perception of wasted votes.

cdebru wrote:

I am merely pointing out an undeniable fact that as a first choice most people did not vote for FF/pd

You're not merely pointing that out; you're trying to spin it to mean something it doesn't. Less than half the electorate gave their first preference vote to FF/PD, that's true. But the more significant fact is that more than half the electorate voted for them. A second-preference vote, as I've already said, is a vote for a candidate - not against that candidate.

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

.

And what happened-the electorate nearly trebbled the number of pd's in the Dáil and returned the current government.
So given the strong influence that the p.d's had on the outgo-ing government, i guess the electorate weren't at all concerned with the influence of the p.d's on it as they returned it with even more p.d's.

So their influence has been put to the test and the result of that was a passed test.

thats were you gave the impression that there had been a massive swing to the PDs

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

thats were you gave the impression that there had been a massive swing to the PDs

Nope I was merely debunking the impression given on this thread that the majority of people didnt like the pd influence.
I never said anything about a massive swing a doubling of their TD's combined with FF's T.D's hardly equates to a majority thinking what you implied they were thinking.
I actually thought they had three T.D's in 1997 instead of 4, thats a simple mistake unrelated to the point I was making which in any case has been proven.

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

Nope I was merely debunking the impression given on this thread that the majority of people didnt like the pd influence.
I never said anything about a massive swing a doubling of their TD's combined with FF's T.D's hardly equates to a majority thinking what you implied they were thinking.
I actually thought they had three T.D's in 1997 instead of 4, thats a simple mistake unrelated to the point I was making which in any case has been proven.

I think you will also find that it is a fact that the majority of fianna fail voters believe that the PDs have to much influence on the direction of this government

it was one of the reasons given for the poor showing of FF in the local and euro elections

that is why mccreevey got the push
and why ahern wanted to get rid of brennan both were seen as too close to the PDs
that is the reason for the movement to the left by the government
sure isn't ahern a socialist now

the PDs seem to have moved away from the economic front and are now leading the fianna fail dog in the peace process while letting FF spend some money now that it suits the PDs since they need money for the health service

A Dub in Glasgo

Earthman wrote:

Nope I was merely debunking the impression given on this thread that the majority of people didnt like the pd influence.
.

Where is this impression?

If you are referring to my response to jbkenn, what I said is this

And the PDs are not having disproportionate influence?

true

In some areas of the country, there are those who have to vote for some of the other parties because there is no PD canditate in their area. I say thank God for the PD's , they have kept the present government on the straight and narrow. Fair play.

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Where is this impression?

If you are referring to my response to jbkenn, what I said is this

I was referring to cdebru's points at that stage.

It arose out of my stating that PD influence on the last government was put to the electorate -they went to the vote as a team and the team was democratically returned with a majority.

I was merely asserting the fact that the democratic majority weren't worried by the pd influence in government.

Cork

true wrote:

I say thank God for the PD's.

The bank robbery has nothing to do with the PDS. The PDs have highlighted the continued criminality of the IRA.

Criminality has to end & I hope Adams and Company will do everything in their power to influence the IRA to cease all activity.

I really think SF really has to put up or shut up.

Moaning about soveriegn governments whilst linked to the criminal IRA does not hold much water.

true

Cork wrote:

The bank robbery has nothing to do with the PDS. The PDs have highlighted the continued criminality of the IRA.

Criminality has to end & I hope Adams and Company will do everything in their power to influence the IRA to cease all activity.

I really think SF really has to put up or shut up.

Moaning about soveriegn governments whilst linked to the criminal IRA does not hold much water.

I agree. I know the bank robbery has nothing to do with the PD's. I like the PDs to be in government for many reasons, not least the fact that they can keep control of Fianna Fail, whose governments / politicians can be a bit suspect.