Male low esteem

Ms Beanbag

The Corinthian wrote:

but many specific areas have few if any representation that specializes in dealing with men, while there are numerous organisations that do so for women.

Those 'numerous organisations for women' are non-existent. If you would like to prove me wrong, feel free to research!

The Corinthian wrote:

How many organisations specialize in dealing with women’s issues and how many for men’s? For example, how many STI clinics and organisations are there out there specifically for women? How many for men?

The only specific STI clinic for women that I would know of is the well woman clinics. That is all. There are other clinics in hospitals that cater for BOTH etc- check out the first few threads on the PI board...

Ms Beanbag

Zulu wrote:

This isn't an attack on womens support groups. This is a discussion about the lack of male support groups.

?! after you initially criticised my first post, without saying why and accusing me for being part of the 'problem', again without saying why.
Make up your mind!
Anyway I think the following should get post of the month. Damn right hilarious i think
"There’s a myriad of support groups specifically catering to women and very few to men. This is due to a combination of feminist self-empowerment of women and men’s macho need to be self-reliant"

Zulu wrote:

Evidently, if this discussion is occuring in the first place, it displays a lack of said groups - or at least, a lack of knowledge about said groups. (Which is as bad as them not being present in the first place: support is only good if it is known about)

Well It doesnt take a second to google or look up the golden pages does it!

elivsvonchiaing

Aside from the various slagging matches - think most women are willing to have a smear-test done by a stranger - most men - would rather die of cancer than have that test!

We are wired very differently - to have a slagging match about the whole thing is to deny this. There are more women's magazines, support groups, etc. than men's for a reason. <deposit_gauntlet> This is not for cultural reasons it for natural reasons </deposit_gauntlet>
1. Women are more communicative - I await with glee anyone who dares argue with this
2. Men have more private feelings - hence open discussion is taboo (don't believe this is cultural - really can't see a tribe anywhere on earth where some guy says: "Guys, I'm having trouble satisfying my gf/wife".... can't imagine anywhere on earth where women will avoid having the reverse conversation.

This is not a fact-filled argument - but it should make sense to most. If you disagree - please don't state poxy facts -please demonstrate actually!

Sleepy

Elvis is right here Ms Beanbag. Women have their traditional support network in their other female friends. Men don't have the same sort of friendships with other men as women have with each other.

To be fair, we're living in a time of unbelievable double standards in favour of women (in the western world at least). I mean, have you ever heard a man admit to owning a vibrating rubber vagina? No, I didn't think so. Yet it's perfectly acceptable these days for women to discuss their preferred type of vibrator over drinks on a friday evening.

There are very, very few areas left that women haven't achieved parity with, or even superiority over, men. In fact I struggle to be able to think of one other than the issue of pay in female sports (Which comes down to the fact that female sports attract FAR FAR less viewers).

Zombrex

Sleepy wrote:

Elvis is right here Ms Beanbag. Women have their traditional support network in their other female friends. Men don't have the same sort of friendships with other men as women have with each other.

This is a major problem I feel. Men get very embrassed when talking about emotions and any hurt they are feeling because men feel that showing emotion is a sign of weakness, especially in front of other men. Also other men get embarrased and unsure what to do if a male friend of theirs cries or gets up set infront of them. The scene from Family Guy comes to mind where the wheel chair bloke is crying and all the lads slip out of the bar through the window.

Sleepy wrote:

To be fair, we're living in a time of unbelievable double standards in favour of women (in the western world at least). I mean, have you ever heard a man admit to owning a vibrating rubber vagina? No, I didn't think so. Yet it's perfectly acceptable these days for women to discuss their preferred type of vibrator over drinks on a friday evening.

Are you saying that men should be allowed openly admit to owning porn or sex toys or are you saying women shouldn't?

Sleepy wrote:

There are very, very few areas left that women haven't achieved parity with, or even superiority over, men. In fact I struggle to be able to think of one other than the issue of pay in female sports (Which comes down to the fact that female sports attract FAR FAR less viewers).

Not quite sure what this has to do with male low esteem and inability to show emotion, because if there is something you can blame women for, men bottling up emotions isn't it. For the last 50 years women have been trying to get men (boyfriends, brothers, fathers, friends) to open up and express emotions better. Have you never been in a relationship where your girl friend has gotten frustrated that you didn't "share your feelings" more. No, the problem isn't women, the problem is other men. Men feel embarrased discussion emotions with other men, emotions they would happily talk to there female friends about. Again I think this is to do with showing signs of weakness in front of other men, and unfortuanitly, emotion is seen as a sign of weakness.

Zombrex

omnicorp wrote:

I'm not trying to be racist/sexist, only to highlight that some people feel afraid to critisisce "minorities" or "vulnerable" groups for feel of being branded.

Well that is because critizing minorities and vunerable groups because the person feel isolated is scape-goating and wrong. It is the not Chinese shop owners fault if you (I don't mean actually you) feel unconfortable around Chinese people. It is not the womans fault if modern men feel uncomfortable with modern relationships where the women is often the one who chooses a partner.

omnicorp wrote:

If there was a special award for White music there would be uproar, yet there is such a thing for black music and no one bats an eyelid.

The whole point of the Mobos was that black/african origin music was completely under represented in every other award shows. Put it this way, flick through Smash Hits and tell me how many black faces you see. Or Kerangg (sp?).

I am not saying this is a bad thing, but complaining when black (which actually just means Jazz/Hip-hop/Soul, the music that came out of black America) music has its own award show is a bit hypocritical. And there is nothing that says you have to be black to win at the Mobos.

Sleepy

Wicknight wrote:

Are you saying that men should be allowed openly admit to owning porn or sex toys or are you saying women shouldn't?

Definitely the former. The world needs more openness, not less. I just find the hypocrisy of the same feminazis who condemn porn as being "demeaning to women" talking openly about their vibrators quite repulsive.

Not quite sure what this has to do with male low esteem and inability to show emotion, because if there is something you can blame women for, men bottling up emotions isn't it. For the last 50 years women have been trying to get men (boyfriends, brothers, fathers, friends) to open up and express emotions better. Have you never been in a relationship where your girl friend has gotten frustrated that you didn't "share your feelings" more. No, the problem isn't women, the problem is other men. Men feel embarrased discussion emotions with other men, emotions they would happily talk to there female friends about. Again I think this is to do with showing signs of weakness in front of other men, and unfortuanitly, emotion is seen as a sign of weakness.

It was more a point of rebuttal to Ms Beanbag's form of "feminism". Some women seem to get ridiculously defensive whenever an inequality between the sexes that favours women is pointed out...

Zombrex

Sleepy wrote:

Definitely the former. The world needs more openness, not less. I just find the hypocrisy of the same feminazis who condemn porn as being "demeaning to women" talking openly about their vibrators quite repulsive.

Well vibrators aren't demeaning to men are they?

Actually I do agree that there is a double standard that exists in society, that women can oggle over Colin Farrel or Tom Cruise, but a man oggles over Pam Anderson or a porn star and they are being disgusting. But at the same men are objectifying the women, and women are objectifying the men in magzines. It is the great failing of feminism that women have been lead to believe that the way to equality is to act like men, even when men are acting inappropratly. As they say, two wrongs don't make a right, and women objectifying men just because men objectify women, is wrong.

Sleepy wrote:

It was more a point of rebuttal to Ms Beanbag's form of "feminism". Some women seem to get ridiculously defensive whenever an inequality between the sexes that favours women is pointed out...

I don't think she was being particularly defensive, she was pointing out the support groups that cater for men after nearly two pages of people saying women have all the support groups. She was then shot down for doing this, as being "part of the problem".

Zulu

Ms Beanbag wrote:

?! after you initially criticised my first post, without saying why and accusing me for being part of the 'problem', again without saying why.
Make up your mind!

Make up my mind?!? Did I contradict myself?
I, indeed did criticise your point, and you are part of the problem. I didn't want to insult your intelligence by pointing out why, but seen as you asked...

This is a discussion about low male self-esteem. Some man have pointed out various reasons that cause them concern. A point was raised that there is a need for more male support. And you shot it down. That isn't helpful.

Let me put it like this. A couple of battered wives start a discussion about the suffering they have and the problems they face. One of the major factors is, say, being afraid to leave the house, and a man comes along and says "just use the front door - you don't need to stay with him". This isn't helpful. Being helpful is listening to the problems and trying to understand/solve them. Being part of the problem is refusing to recognise a evident need.

It may be that there are as many male support groups as female, but don't you fell that they are failing some how, considering that the only person here that believes that is a woman?

Ms Beanbag wrote:

Well It doesnt take a second to google or look up the golden pages does it!

So helpful and understanding! - Why don't you just say: "Stop crying sissies".

...you do see that you are part of the problem? making comments like these?

Sangre

Yeah I can see it now...
Man 1: Oh bother, some rather uncout randomn gentelman inserted his erect penis into my rectal cavity, quite roughly I might add.
Man 2: Well that was rather uncalled for!
Man 1: Oh quite, put m in quite the pickle it did for tonight's fox hunt
Man 2: Well aren't you a downer, flick through yonder Golden Pages and they'll sort you out in a jiffy.
Man 1: Oh, Im such a bafoon, its right under Rape. Jolly Good Show. Well Im off to market and then the a copper's line-up. Toodles
Man 2: Tally-ho!

omnicorp

See, it's easy

Well vibrators aren't demeaning to men are they?

Actually I do agree that there is a double standard that exists in society, that women can oggle over Colin Farrel or Tom Cruise, but a man oggles over Pam Anderson or a porn star and they are being disgusting. But at the same men are objectifying the women, and women are objectifying the men in magzines. It is the great failing of feminism that women have been lead to believe that the way to equality is to act like men, even when men are acting inappropratly. As they say, two wrongs don't make a right, and women objectifying men just because men objectify women, is wrong.

an example of this would be "laddettes" binge drinking.
Another point of discrimination is car insurance.
If you put health insurance up for women because they are more likely to die from giving birth there would be uproar, why isn't there for car insurance.
And that "women only" car insurance company is a disgrace, if there was a "man only" insurance company, uproar.

As someone told me,

"I don't feel that there are enough bikers in corporate positions, does that mean we get a lot of help? No"

A P.C world gone mad

Sangre

By the omnicorp, dont be an idiot. Having an award ceremony for originally black-orientated music such as rap, hip-hop or jazz is not the same as having a 'black' music award and you know that. Werent franz ferdinand and the streets nominated for the Mobo awards? Doesnt Eminem get loads of rap awards etc.,
If you suggest such an award show, it is the exact same as a Country music award show because there isn't a black person among them. One celebrates a white based culture, one a black based culture, not black vs white.
But we're getting away from the point.

If you based this pregnant increased life insurance with cold hard facts their wouldnt be up-roar. There would be up-roar because you mighten want to give birth etc.,
Bottom line is men cost more for insurance companies, its not discrimination. Do you think women are behind these decisions? Get real. Its about money, simple.

omnicorp

fine, maybe I was na bit extreme in my points.
But......... what about the woman who got away with bludgeoning her husband to death with a hammer because she was "abused" (sounds like she abused him.. with a hammer) OK, that's also a bit extreme, but my point is that it is hard for white men to talk about oppression because they are not a "minority" (neither are women, but's thats besides the point)

Sangre

And how exactly do white men get oppressed?

Yes, wife beating has in some cases been used as a cause of provocation, wrongly in my view but that is from a legal stand point because provo must be immediate and in proportion etc., Maybe it should be accepted under some other heading if at all.

Zombrex

omnicorp wrote:

fine, maybe I was na bit extreme in my points.
But......... what about the woman who got away with bludgeoning her husband to death with a hammer because she was "abused" (sounds like she abused him.. with a hammer) OK, that's also a bit extreme, but my point is that it is hard for white men to talk about oppression because they are not a "minority" (neither are women, but's thats besides the point)

As Sangre said, white men aren't oppressed.

You seem to be looking in the wrong place for the reason why suicide rates and depression are very high in white Irish (northern european) males. It is not because we are being oppressed by society, or feminists, or women. White males aged 18-45 have it better than any other group out there. As has been pointed out there are support groups for men, they simply aren't used.

Instead of looking for an external factors to blame (i.e feminism) men need to look at the social relationships between us, because that is where the problem lies. The inability to express emotions, especially negative, is not a result of some external influence, it is a result of our own apprehensions when dealing with other men.

Zombrex

omnicorp wrote:

fine, maybe I was na bit extreme in my points.
But......... what about the woman who got away with bludgeoning her husband to death with a hammer because she was "abused" (sounds like she abused him.. with a hammer)

Actually it is far more common that a man will get off killing his girlfriend/wife because she drove him into a fit of passion/jealous/some other bull****. Look at the Chinese guy in Bray.

The Corinthian

Wicknight wrote:

As Sangre said, white men aren't oppressed.

By what definition?

(Not disagreeing with you, just asking)

ferdi

stop oppressing me!!!

Zombrex

The Corinthian wrote:

By what definition?

(Not disagreeing with you, just asking)

In that white Irish men are "not kept down by severe and unjust use of force or authority"

Or put it another way, there is very little a white 18-45 Irish male cannot do because some other social grouping is stopping them or putting pressure on them not to.

BTW I really don't want to get into a syematics argument over this because it is not the point of the thread, and oppression is not the reason Irish males are depressed and suicidal. If someone brings up child-care I am going to scream (like a little girl)!

The Corinthian

Wicknight wrote:

Or put it another way, there is very little a white 18-45 Irish male cannot do because some other social grouping is stopping them or putting pressure on them not to.

You've never worked in HR or marketing then.

Kell

Right- now. Back to the point of the thread.

I am revisiting this topic as I have just reminded myself from threading through LOTs of confused male posts on PI's, that women are truly bástards to blokes these days and this surely plays a part in the self esteem thing.

The way I see it is that for as long as there have been women and men, women have hassled men about being nicer, gentler rah rah rah. So, now that women have decided "fúck this, we're not waiting anymore, lets behave like bad mannered men" we also have a generation of the nice guy that women have been asking for for so long.

Problem- blokes are evolving into what women have asked for, but now theres no place for those blokes as womens wants have totally changed (surprise surprise). Not only that, blokes cant really talk to their mates about it because their mates advice will invariably be incorrect given the shifting of the goal posts. So, the generation of the nice guy has been brought up by his mum to look after and revere women, and yet when he goes to do that, he is snubbed. Bit of a knockback I'd say to repeatedly have to re-evaluate what role you are supposed to play in the mating game.

Added to all of that, look at the dumbing down of the male character as highlighted by other posters pointing to blatantly sexist advertising. I am sorry, but in thirty years I have never seen an advert making a woman out to be a retard. Object yes, but never a retard.

I am not suggesting that bítches are the sole cause of male anghst, but I think the notion deserves more consideration than previously given.

K-

Zulu

Wicknight wrote:

You seem to be looking in the wrong place for the reason why suicide rates and depression are very high in white Irish (northern european) males. It is not because we are being oppressed by society, or feminists, or women.

So the oppression of emotions isn't due to social factors? Is that honestly what you are saying?

Wicknight wrote:

As has been pointed out there are support groups for men, they simply aren't used.

...and why is that do you think? - or can't you be bothered acknowledging a problem staring you straight in the face?

Wicknight wrote:

Instead of looking for an external factors to blame (i.e feminism) men need to look at the social relationships between us, because that is where the problem lies.

...so it is a social issue then?!? Make up your mind, my friend.

Wicknight wrote:

The inability to express emotions, especially negative, is not a result of some external influence, it is a result of our own apprehensions when dealing with other men.

...what?!? you are constently changing your point. I think the term is "flip-flopping".
Men don't express emotion publicly because it is viewed as a sign of weakness. This view is passed on through generations and peers. It is a social belief.
No-one is blameing "feminism".

omnicorp

omnicorp wrote:

If you put health insurance up for women because they are more likely to die from giving birth there would be uproar, why isn't there for car insurance.
And that "women only" car insurance company is a disgrace, if there was a "man only" insurance company, uproar.

I'm shocked. I totally agree with you. :rolleyes:

Wicknight wrote:

In that white Irish men are "not kept down by severe and unjust use of force or authority"

True enough. They're not.

Wicknight wrote:

Or put it another way, there is very little a white 18-45 Irish male cannot do because some other social grouping is stopping them or putting pressure on them not to.

However there is a clear social opinion as to what is expected of both men and women. However, the inequality exists that if a woman is restricted by societies opinions/laws, then its discriminatory, whereas its tough luck for guys.

BTW I really don't want to get into a syematics argument over this because it is not the point of the thread, and oppression is not the reason Irish males are depressed and suicidal.

There is no single reason. But it is a factor. And is worth discussing.

If someone brings up child-care I am going to scream (like a little girl)!

I'm not going to go into this, because I'm likely to rant too much. But this aspect is extremely discriminatory towards males, but I don't think its in anyway related to male low esteem.

kell wrote:

Problem- blokes are evolving into what women have asked for, but now theres no place for those blokes as womens wants have totally changed (surprise surprise). Not only that, blokes cant really talk to their mates about it because their mates advice will invariably be incorrect given the shifting of the goal posts. So, the generation of the nice guy has been brought up by his mum to look after and revere women, and yet when he goes to do that, he is snubbed. Bit of a knockback I'd say to repeatedly have to re-evaluate what role you are supposed to play in the mating game.

exactly. Spot on.

Zombrex

The Corinthian wrote:

You've never worked in HR or marketing then.

Oh sweet mother of god ... what did i just say!

I swear you just like picking fights :rolleyes:

BTW I really don't want to get into a syematics argument over this because it is not the point of the thread, and oppression is not the reason Irish males are depressed and suicidal. If someone brings up child-care i][b]should have said marketing![/i][/b I am going to scream (like a little girl)!

Zombrex

Zulu wrote:

So the oppression of emotions isn't due to social factors? Is that honestly what you are saying?

Not society as a whole. Society as a whole, compared to say 50 years ago, is a lot more open to showing of emotions and the realisation of depression. 50 years ago depression was a dirty word, now you can't walk down the street without passing a poster for the Samaritins or some counceling group. In college every single bathroom door has a conseller sticker on it, in my dads day he didn't even know his college had a conseller (they probably didnt).

Zulu wrote:

...and why is that do you think? - or can't you be bothered acknowledging a problem staring you straight in the face?

How exactly am I not acknowledging male depression? What I am saying is that nothing external is stopping men from going to these groups. Men are stopping men from going to these groups. Instead of everyone on this bloody thread looking around for something else to blame (women! feminism! lack of support groups!) why are we ignoring the most obvious answer, men feel uncomfortable expression emotion because they believe it makes them appear weak in front of other men

Zulu wrote:

...so it is a social issue then?!? Make up your mind, my friend.

I never said it wasn't a social issue ... EVERYTHING is a social issue .. but it is a male social issue, between men in social enviornments.

Zulu wrote:

Men don't express emotion publicly because it is viewed as a sign of weakness. This view is passed on through generations and peers. It is a social belief.

I agree with you. So why are people on this thread blaming women, feminism and lack of society understanding, when it is actually other men that are the problem.

Zulu wrote:

No-one is blameing "feminism".

Everyone is blaming feminism, or women in general. Kell just wrote a post saying it is because women can't make up their mind about how they want men to act .. I mean seriously, WTF!

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote:

However there is a clear social opinion as to what is expected of both men and women. However, the inequality exists that if a woman is restricted by societies opinions/laws, then its discriminatory, whereas its tough luck for guys.

Its not, there isn't a single anti-discrimitary law afaik in Ireland that doesn't work both ways. There was a thread a while back about how women are oppression men, and a load of people came on telling stories about how they were sexually harrashed and discriminitated in their jobs. The first question I asked all of them was did they report it, did they attempt to get the law involved. None of them had. The laws are fine, society deal with cases on both sides, but for some reason men seem very unwilling to go anywhere with discrimination cases.

Kell

Kell wrote:

I am not suggesting that bítches are the sole cause of male anghst, but I think the notion deserves more consideration than previously given.

K-

Which bit did you miss? :rolleyes:

K-

The Corinthian

Wicknight wrote:

If someone brings up child-care [should have said marketing!] I am going to scream (like a little girl)!

Or, as I suggested, you could have said HR too. Give it some thought and you'll probably find a few more - how many more exceptions are we to look for then? Then there is the question of parenting rights and, in many countries, military service (both of which have been connected to suicide in men) and both of which have strong gender biases.

Of course, I'm not for a moment arguing that women are not subject to discrimination; only that men can be too, and this is undoubtedly a factor in many cases of suicide in modern society.

Zulu

Wicknight wrote:

The first question I asked all of them was did they report it, did they attempt to get the law involved. None of them had. The laws are fine, society deal with cases on both sides, but for some reason men seem very unwilling to go anywhere with discrimination cases.

Now I wonder why that is? Perhaps the same reasons men are far less likely to report being raped. ....perhaps it's the same reason women who were raped by their husbands a generation or two ago didn't report it.

Zombrex

The Corinthian wrote:

Of course, I'm not for a moment arguing that women are not subject to discrimination; only that men can be too, and this is undoubtedly a factor in many cases of suicide in modern society.

Based on what? Women are far more discriminated against than men, but yet they have lower levels of depression and much lower levels of sucide. Also suicide is much more common in male dominiated industries such as farming.