should i be afraid?

Capt'n Midnight

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Another generalisation without proof!!

I have known a few people who joined SF Youth and have not 'found' their way into the IRA.

you forgot the word yet

also how would you know if they had joined the IRA aren't volunteers supposed to keep thier identities secret.

also "a few" is not a big enough statistic to prove it doesn't happen

oscarBravo

Mad Cyril wrote:

Again that [whether the abduction and murder of a mother of ten is a crime] is open to argument.

It most certainly is not.

A Dub in Glasgo

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

you forgot the word yet

I don't normally go around making accusations against people with respect to any future action they may do. You could be a future rapist for all I know but I would not go around stating that I believe you will rape someone next week/month/year.

also how would you know if they had joined the IRA aren't volunteers supposed to keep thier identities secret.

I believe them and I trust them

also "a few" is not a big enough statistic to prove it doesn't happen

Dear God, I am not trying to prove it does not happen. I am responding to Gandalf who has made a generalisation. The normal response to a generalisation is to ask the person to prove what they are saying not for someone to disprove what was said.

In my experience I have known 3 people who joined SF via their youth section and they are fine members of society. How many do you know?

A Dub in Glasgo

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

They have policies which may be 'popular' amongst their target electorate and they have policies which may not be so 'popular'. For example, I would imagine their policy on the whole question of refugees and immigrants is against the 'man on the street' view if my experience of the 'man on the street' view is anything to go by.

I find other opposition parties have the luxury of some 'popular' policies as well and the Government parties have policies which are popular to some of their target electorate.

Mad Cyril

oscarBravo wrote:

It most certainly is not.

I actually shouldn't have commented on that part of his post because it is not relevant to this thread.

However it most certainly is debatable whether or not the aforementioned act could be defined as criminal. I am not claiming that it wasn't, but there is a valid argument. Having said that the refusal to disclose the location of the body to relatives is inexcusable and despicable.

jbkenn

Mad Cyril wrote:

However it most certainly is debatable whether or not the aforementioned act could be defined as criminal. I am not claiming that it wasn't, but there is a valid argument.

No, there can never be a valid arguement for this barbaric murder.

Having said that the refusal to disclose the location of the body to relatives is inexcusable and despicable.

In response to the original post, with a mindset like this, you have every right to be afraid
jbkenn

Teneka

SF are Socialist and Nationalist and

National Socialism anyone ?

Huh?

MadsL

Huh?

Try the library. History section.

Mad Cyril

Mad Cyril wrote:

I actually shouldn't have commented on that part of his post because it is not relevant to this thread.

However it most certainly is debatable whether or not the aforementioned act could be defined as criminal. I am not claiming that it wasn't, but there is a valid argument. Having said that the refusal to disclose the location of the body to relatives is inexcusable and despicable.

If the people who abducted and murdered that poor woman were caught and tried in a court of law and there was suffecient evidence to say they did it then they would be convicted of the crime of murder.

Theres nothing debatable about what happened to her,she didnt dig the hole in the sand herself and cover herself up...
Or maybe she did...

I better qualify that by saying its my opinion before I'm banned... :rolleyes:

true

[Glasgo]QUOTE=A Dub in I don't normally go around making accusations against people with respect to any future action they may do. You could be a future rapist for all I know but I would not go around stating that I believe you will rape someone next week/month/year.
[/QUOTE]

Very few civilians go on to be rapists. Quite a lot of Sinn Feiners go on to be IRA men / women. The list is endless if you want examples over the years.


Quote by Dub : "I believe them and I trust them"

You believe and trust people who say they are not in the IRA ? After all the IRA has done ? After all the lies they have told, like the Adara murder ? After all the half-truths ? If someone was in the IRA, do you think they would tell you ? Are they not supposed not to ? If someone told you they never committed a crime , lets presume they are fine members of society as you say. But they could have abducted , tortured and murdered a mother of ten. Oh but thats not a crime. Fine people indeed.

You , Dub in Glasgo, may think the IRA and their apologists are believeable and trustworthy, but their many victims and victims relatives would disagree with you.

oscarBravo

Mad Cyril wrote:

However it most certainly is debatable whether or not the aforementioned act could be defined as criminal. I am not claiming that it wasn't, but there is a valid argument.

No, there isn't, unless you live in the distorted fantasy world where the IRA army council is the legitimate government of this country.

I live in Ireland, where the deliberate and premeditated shooting of an unarmed mother in the head is a crime.

gurramok

oscarBravo wrote:

I live in Ireland, where the deliberate and premeditated shooting of an unarmed mother in the head is a crime.

I live here also. Using a single murder out of 4 odd thousand murders over the 'troubles' as a political football is disrespectful to the victim.
Let the authorities deal with it if they are competent enough.

true

gurramok wrote:

I live here also. Using a single murder out of 4 odd thousand murders over the 'troubles' as a political football is disrespectful to the victim.
Let the authorities deal with it if they are competent enough.

The main reason its mnentioned ("political football" as you call it) is

(A) The IRA abducted, tortured, shot and burried the woman, and had the cheek to tell her children lies about her disappearance.
(B) The IRA and their old political wing, Sinn Fein, refuse to see the above as a crime.

All of the other murders out of the total were also disrespectful to the victims, and to the vast majority of us who did not agree with the IRA terrorist campaign / war / call it what you will, in the first place.

gurramok

true wrote:

The main reason its mnentioned ("political football" as you call it) is

(A) The IRA abducted, tortured, shot and burried the woman, and had the cheek to tell her children lies about her disappearance.
(B) The IRA and their old political wing, Sinn Fein, refuse to see the above as a crime.

All of the other murders out of the total were also disrespectful to the victims, and to the vast majority of us who did not agree with the IRA terrorist campaign / war / call it what you will, in the first place.

It was not just IRA murders. If you have a trawl through the list of victims, there were also murder of other innocents not just by loyalists but by so-called legtimate security forces where the murders are not classfied as crimes as its suits them.
Hardly a successful prosecution arose from those crimes but do you see political parties using these as political footballs for their own gain ?
Not one group has a monopoly on grief.

Teneka

MadsL wrote:

Try the library. History section.

Yes but it doesn't make sense.

AmenToThat

oscarBravo wrote:

I live in Ireland, where the deliberate and premeditated shooting of an unarmed mother in the head is a crime.

Well I live in Ireland to and while I think the killing of that poor woman was a horrible thing to happen if the IRA were convinced at the time that she was a traitor then they were guilty of no crime in killing her.

true

AmenToThat wrote:

Well I live in Ireland to and while I think the killing of that poor woman was a horrible thing to happen if the IRA were convinced at the time that she was a traitor then they were guilty of no crime in killing her.

Define a traitor. A law abiding citizen in any state in the world has the right, if not the duty, to report illegial activities to the security services of the democratically elected government. Who are the bigger traitors - gougers like the IRA gang , oh brave boys they were, or the defenceless mother of ten whose only crime was to go to comfort a dying British soldier, someones son, on the side of the road.

If a group thinks someone is a " traitor " is it a crime if they abduct, torture and kill her ? If the group was a group of escaped phycos ? If the group was a group of UVF men ? Oh , I see, only the IRA have the right ?

AmenToThat

AmenToThat wrote:

Well I live in Ireland to and while I think the killing of that poor woman was a horrible thing to happen if the IRA were convinced at the time that she was a traitor then they were guilty of no crime in killing her.

Unlawfully killing someone is a crime.

And By the way thats a fact and not an opinion-I can provide links to the law if you like.

true

gurramok wrote:

It was not just IRA murders. If you have a trawl through the list of victims, there were also murder of other innocents not just by loyalists but by so-called legtimate security forces where the murders are not classfied as crimes as its suits them.
Hardly a successful prosecution arose from those crimes but do you see political parties using these as political footballs for their own gain ?
Not one group has a monopoly on grief.

Noboby said the list of over 3000 victims of the troubles were all just IRA murders. Yes, I know there were murders by loyalists. Yes, I know not one group has a monopoly on grief ( but tell that to Mrs McAleese ).

Re "so-called legitimate security services", yes the security services on both sides of the border have shot people, usually though in self defence. There have been well highlighted cases where the circumstances are very controversial. If the IRA had not embarked on their "just war" / terrorism campaign ( depending on your point of view ) much would not have happened. And over 3000 people would be alive.

cdebru

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

SF are Socialist and Nationalist and

National Socialism anyone ?

If anyone from Ogra is watching - what is thier position on Proxy Bombs ?

actually they are socialist and republican

republican socialist James Connolly anyone?

true

cdebru wrote:

actually they are socialist and republican

republican socialist James Connolly anyone?

Back during the troubles the provos were called Nationalists, were they not, and they did not object. Fianna Fail are republicans. So is that party in the United States. But to call a bunch of terrorists republicans ? If they liked the republic that much, they would recognise our Gardai and Army as being legitimate, which they do not. The provos shot an Irish soldier and Guard for example during the kidnap search in Ballinamore in the Eighties. Is this the action of a republican army ?

Who else was nationalist and socialist ? Who would not condemn the disappearance of a mother of ten or other individuals ? Who has engaged in what could be called some degree of incidents of eithnic cleansing ( Brits out ) etc. Who rose to power with a pistol in one hand and a ballot box in the other ? Who had an ally / member in Sean Russell? The IRA or the Nazis?

jbkenn

cdebru wrote:

actually they are socialist and republican

republican socialist James Connolly anyone?

What exactly, has the fact that James Connolly was a Repubican Socialist got to do with Sinn Fein??

jbkenn

cdebru

true wrote:

Back during the troubles the provos were called Nationalists, were they not, and they did not object. Fianna Fail are republicans. So is that party in the United States. But to call a bunch of terrorists republicans ? If they liked the republic that much, they would recognise our Gardai and Army as being legitimate, which they do not. The provos shot an Irish soldier and Guard for example during the kidnap search in Ballinamore in the Eighties. Is this the action of a republican army ?

Who else was nationalist and socialist ? Who would not condemn the disappearance of a mother of ten or other individuals ? Who has engaged in what could be called some degree of incidents of eithnic cleansing ( Brits out ) etc. Who rose to power with a pistol in one hand and a ballot box in the other ? Who had an ally / member in Sean Russell? The IRA or the Nazis?

true thats nonsensical
the IRA Irish Republican Army
do you really need a history lesson as to why the IRA do no recognise the 26 counties as the Irish Republic
as for who shot the soldier and the trainee garda in the case you refer to I believe the army/gardai may have shot those individuals by mistake from memory I think the gardai/army surrounded a field believing the people they were looking for were in the field the gardai/army started shooting and in the confusion shot across the field killing the 2 people
I could be wrong on that but thats what i remember from the time

as for the rest of your argument putting 2 words together does not make anyone a nazi surely you are not that simplistic is that the depth of your understanding of nazism or socialism
brits out refers to british army
the Sean Russell thing has been debated on another thread Sean Russell was not a nazi nor was he a nazi sympathiser he saw WW2 as an oppurtunity to remove britain from Ireland
I think he was wrong but hindsight is 20/20 vision
what of course is not mentioned is who was with Sean Russell a man called Frank Ryan who fought against the fascists in the Spainish civil war while it was the Blueshirts who went on to become fine gael who sent people to fight for the fascists in spain

cdebru

jbkenn wrote:

What exactly, has the fact that James Connolly was a Repubican Socialist got to do with Sinn Fein??

jbkenn

sinn fein claims to be a republican socialist party from the tradition of James Connolly

true

cdebru wrote:

true thats nonsensical
the IRA Irish Republican Army
do you really need a history lesson as to why the IRA do no recognise the 26 counties as the Irish Republic

Yes, but the point is they still are Nationalists, and ofeten used to refer to themselves / their community as such. And they do not recognise the security services of the 26 county govt, that is the point.

[/QUOTE = cdebru]
as for who shot the soldier and the trainee garda in the case you refer to I believe the army/gardai may have shot those individuals by mistake from memory I think the gardai/army surrounded a field believing the people they were looking for were in the field the gardai/army started shooting and in the confusion shot across the field killing the 2 people
I could be wrong on that but thats what i remember from the time[/QUOTE]

You are wrong. The Irish army and Guards were looking for the IRA kidnappers in a wood near Ballinamore, Co. Leitrim. When a soldier and Guard stumbled on the hide out in the woods, and pulled back the taurpaulin, the IRA shot from almost point blank range.

cdebru wrote:

as for the rest of your argument putting 2 words together does not make anyone a nazi surely you are not that simplistic is that the depth of your understanding of nazism or socialism

I never suggested putting two words together made anyone a Nazi ; that is why I went to the trouble of describing some of their actions and morals, to draw some parallels.

cdebru wrote:

brits out refers to british army

Actually, I used the phrase in the context of other actions as well : for example, the killing of members of the UDR and RUC , the killing of cooks and workmen who worked for the British, the people who commemorated Remembrance day in Enniskillen, even the "Brits" who were killed and burnt out
during the troubles early in the 20th century down south.

cdebru wrote:

the Sean Russell thing has been debated on another thread Sean Russell was not a nazi nor was he a nazi sympathiser he saw WW2 as an oppurtunity to remove britain from Ireland

The fact he died, as a collaborator , on a U-boat does show yet another link or parallel between the two.

A Dub in Glasgo

James Connolly, a pretty fantastic statue across from Liberty Hall. A real embodiment of the Celtic idea in Scotland.

The German Empire is a homogeneous Empire of self-governing peoples; the British Empire is a heterogeneous collection in which a very small number of self-governing communities connive at the subjugation, by force, of a vast number of despotically ruled subject populations.

We do not wish to be ruled by either empire, but we certainly believe that the first named contains in germ more of the possibilities of freedom and civilisation than the latter.

monument

gandalf wrote:

I myself was a member of a student wing of a political party in my day.

If you don't mind me asking - what party?

cdebru

true wrote:

Yes, but the point is they still are Nationalists, and ofeten used to refer to themselves / their community as such. And they do not recognise the security services of the 26 county govt, that is the point. .

no they always refer to themselves as republicans they refer to the community as nationalist/republican as a recognition that not all nationalists are republican
there is nothing wrong with being a nationalist it might be a dirty word in your book but it is an perfectly honourable thing to be.
what is the point

true wrote:

You are wrong. The Irish army and Guards were looking for the IRA kidnappers in a wood near Ballinamore, Co. Leitrim. When a soldier and Guard stumbled on the hide out in the woods, and pulled back the taurpaulin, the IRA shot from almost point blank range..

it has never been settled who did shoot these 2 young men it should be noted that when brendan mcfarlane was charged with offences relating to that day he was not charged with murder or manslaughter
the only reference i could find on google was a review of a book http://www.emigrant.ie/article.asp?iCategoryID=49&iArticleID=27744

" is of Garda recruit Gary Sheehan and Private Patrick Kelly in Derrada Wood, Ballinamore during the operation to rescue supermarket chief Don Tidey; it is unresolved to this day whether these deaths were caused by what has become known as "friendly fire" in a situation in which the IRA members were in military uniforms and the search party included large numbers of untested gardai and soldiers."

true wrote:

[

I never suggested putting two words together made anyone a Nazi ; that is why I went to the trouble of describing some of their actions and morals, to draw some parallels. .

parallels there are no parallels
you have a rather simplistic view of what nazi means I suggest you learn more about what nazism was/is before calling people nazis it only belittles your arguement
the suggestion is that anyone who is a socialist can have no nationalist views or they would run the risk of turning into a nazi

true wrote:

Actually, I used the phrase in the context of other actions as well : for example, the killing of members of the UDR and RUC , the killing of cooks and workmen who worked for the British, the people who commemorated Remembrance day in Enniskillen, even the "Brits" who were killed and burnt out
during the troubles early in the 20th century down south..

UDR RUC were crown forces the IRA would view anyone who worked for or profited from the british forces as a collaborator

the burning of landlords houses is not ethnic cleansing
just for the record ethnic cleansing was introduced to Ireland by the English
to hell or connaught ring a bell

true wrote:

The fact he died, as a collaborator , on a U-boat does show yet another link or parallel between the two.

he was not a collaborator Ireland was not at war with Germany
no more than the people who tried to get help from France or Spain at different times in our history
or indeed the IRA more recently who took aid from libya because it was available it does not mean that the IRA are Gadaffist or whatever

true

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Quote:
The German Empire is a homogeneous Empire of self-governing peoples; the British Empire is a heterogeneous collection in which a very small number of self-governing communities connive at the subjugation, by force, of a vast number of despotically ruled subject populations.

We do not wish to be ruled by either empire, but we certainly believe that the first named contains in germ more of the possibilities of freedom and civilisation than the latter.

.

LOL Even Lord Haw Haw could not have said it better himself . LOL

I am sure some of the subject populations of the German Empire would have disagreed with you. Or maybe you think Hitlers Germany was a land of freedom and civilisation. One thing for sure, the country that stood up for freedom and civilisation in that era was Britain. If it didnt, you would not be in Glasgow now Dub.

jbkenn

cdebru wrote:

sinn fein claims to be a republican socialist party from the tradition of James Connolly

I thought so, as usual, tenuous at best, perhaps you should take the opportunity to read some of his writings and come back and explain the perceived linkage.

jbkenn