should i be afraid?

true

FTA69, you asked me "to provide examples of these parrallels or in the interests of decency withdraw your comparison" when I wrote "Perhaps Mrs McAleese would have been better off comparing the Hitler youth to Ogra Sinn Fein ?( rather than comparing the people of Northern Ireland who teach their kids to hate catholics with the Nazis hatred towards Jews) There are many parallels."



FTA69, I note you do not deny "Nazism , the idology of Hitler Youth, started off in the early thirties with its slogan " a pistol in one hand and a ballot box in the other ". Now where did I hear something about a klashnikov in one hand and a ballot box in the other ?.
That was my main point. These are also a few other little similarities between Sinn Fein / IRA and Nazism.

FTA69 wrote:

Your comparisons are entirely abstract, the Brits also committed "crimes" by extra-judicially killing unarmed people in different states. Are they comparable to the Hitler Youth?.

Who do you mean by the "Brits"? A nation of 60 or 70 million people. I do not think their actions are comparable with the actions of a relatively small terrorist group ( membership of which would not have gone in to five figures. ) eg Enniskillen, Le Mon, Warrington, Bermingham pub bombings etc etc. The question was which are more like Nazi : a branch of Sinn Fein OR the Protestant people of Northern Ireland ( who are by implication refered to by Mrs McAleese ). You are talking about the "Brits" in negative tones now. Are you calling the Northern Protestants Brits , because of their allegiance and loyalty to Britain : you now alledge they commit "crimes" by extra-judicially killing unarmed people in different states?

FTA69 wrote:

We are discussing Ógra Shinn Féin not the IRA, but in your eyes does the planting of a bomb make one comparable to Nazis? The brits used a few thousand of them to incinerate tens of thousands of people in Dresden, they must be Nazis as well. People in Ireland have also died at the hands of the brits, the brits therefore must be Nazis. .

Sinn Fein and the IRA are linked. The IRA placed more than one bomb, they placed countless nembers : probably hundreds if not thousands more times the number of bombs planted by everyone else put together. Yes, the RAF used thousands of bombs in Dresden : that was war , and it was many years after Hitler invaded and bombed his neighbouring countries, and years after the Blitz in England. That said, I do not condone bombing of civilian targets.
However, war had been declared between Germany and the UK and both countries followed the Geneva convention. The IRA never followed the Geneva convention.

FTA69 wrote:

Sinn Féin teaches the "hatred" of nobody, we teach the opposition to occupying forces and a bigoted ideology. We do not single people out because of their nationality, skin colour or religion. You still have yet to provide examples of Ógra Shinn Féin teaching the "hatred of prods"..

You teach a bigoted ideology? Glad you admit it. I would never have thought it reading an Phoblocht. You say "We do not single people out because of their nationality, skin colour or religion". Of yes you have. What about the Warrington, Guildford, Birmingham, Docklands, Le Mon boms, to name but a few. Innocent civilians wre targeted and killed in each civilian location.
In the early decades of last century, some Protestants were killed and burnt out. Many Protestants have been killed by the IRA ( Shankhill Road bomb, Le Mon bomb etc ) : I know you will deny they were killed because they were Protestants, but the perception is there that that is the main reason they were killed.

FTA69 wrote:

Ógra Shinn Féin is not a Catholic party, we are socialists of all religions (or non-religion) that supports the seperation between Church and State. Mussollini made Catholicism the official religion of Italy while Hitler abolished it all together in favour of the Reichkirche. The above has to be the most foolish suggestion yet. Is the Pope comparable to Hitler Youth because he was a Catholic?.

I did not say it was a Catholic party , but you asked for similarities between Hitler and Sinn Fein / IRA.

FTA69 wrote:

Of course, but Catholic bigotry was not enforced through a stae system of discrimination, internment, collusion with death squads and gerrymandering. This whole debacle is simply as a result of Unionism's inability to acknowledge the reactionary position they held and continue to hold.

There was not a " state system " of collusion with death squads. There was collusion between the Gardai and the IRA, but like in Northern Ireland it was not widespread. Internment was introduced in an attempt to restore civil order. You say "Unionism's inability to acknowledge the reactionary position continue to hold". They have a mandate and everyone in these islands wants to do business with the nationalists, but everyone ( except Sinn Fein / IRA )wants Sinn Fein / IRA to take the guns out from under the table.

FTA69

pogo&#324 wrote:

Is this a picture of where he lives?

http://www.cluanplace.co.uk/clpics.htm

Ah yes Cluan Place, that happy area from where dozens of UVF members were pelting the Short Strand with blast and petrol bombs. The same area which displays plaques from the BNP and Combat 18. I notice your bovver boy site fails to point out that most residents were evicted by the UVF so they could use the place as a launching pad for their missiles and incursions. Why was Cluan Place also shut off by masked UVF members to the media pogón?

FTA69

FTA69, I note you do not deny "Nazism , the idology of Hitler Youth, started off in the early thirties with its slogan " a pistol in one hand and a ballot box in the other ". Now where did I hear something about a klashnikov in one hand and a ballot box in the other ?.
That was my main point. These are also a few other little similarities between Sinn Fein / IRA and Nazism.

Republicans adopted that strategy to try and bring about a united socialist Republic. The Nazis used this strategy to bring about facism, as you can see what you pointed out above draws a stark difference between the twon organisations to be honest.

Who do you mean by the "Brits"?

That term is taken by nearly everyone to mean the British Army and the government behind it. It never has meant the Unionist community as you so mischevously alledge.

you now alledge they commit "crimes" by extra-judicially killing unarmed people in different states?

Yes, the British Army often extra-judicially killed innocent people either directly or through colluding with Loyalist death-squads ie John Francis Green or Cllr Eddie Fullerton.

However, war had been declared between Germany and the UK and both countries followed the Geneva convention. The IRA never followed the Geneva convention.

To quote a British general, "we are at war with the Provisional IRA". Besides, by your logic there can be no such thing as a civil war as there was no declaration of war between soveriegn states. War is more than pieces of paper. As for the Geneva Convention, the Nazis never followed it while they were mass killing their prisoners and neither were the British Army in this country when they were extra-judicially killing unarmed people.

You teach a bigoted ideology? Glad you admit it.

Clutching at straws now true, I actually stated "we teach the opposition to occupying forces and a bigoted ideology." That meaning we are opposed to a bigoted ideology, namely Loyalism.

Innocent civilians wre targeted and killed in each civilian location.

No they weren't, British soldiers and economic structures were targeted. There is a stark difference and well you know it.

In the early decades of last century, some Protestants were killed and burnt out. Many Protestants have been killed by the IRA ( Shankhill Road bomb, Le Mon bomb etc ) : I know you will deny they were killed because they were Protestants, but the perception is there that that is the main reason they were killed.

Shankill was an attempt to kill the UDA leadership that went drastically wrong. It was not a deliberate massacre of people because of their religion.

I did not say it was a Catholic party , but you asked for similarities between Hitler and Sinn Fein / IRA.

Indeed, and Catholicism is not a comparison between Sinn Féin and Hitler owing to the fact Sinn Féin is not "Catholic", you said so yourself above.

There was not a " state system " of collusion with death squads.

Yes there was, look at the example of Brian Nelson. A British agent working within the UDA who was recruited by the Force Research Unit attached to the British Army. The FRU answered to MI5 who in turn answered to the British cabinet. Collususion was not the action of a few local RUC members, but an initiative supported by various military and intelligence agencies, all of whom were answerable to the British government.

pogoń

FTA69 wrote:

Ah yes Cluan Place, that happy area from where dozens of UVF members were pelting the Short Strand with blast and petrol bombs. The same area which displays plaques from the BNP and Combat 18.

Would you like to provide links to show us images of the BNP and combat 18 plaques?

Or are they figments of your imagination like your Belfast Protestant Republican friend?

I notice your bovver boy site fails to point out that most residents were evicted by the UVF so they could use the place as a launching pad for their missiles and incursions.

I wasn't aware that I was quoting a 'bovver-boy site'.

Whatever the site is it is far less offensive than www.irbb.rr.nu , the fan boy site of the Omagh bombers, where you spend most of your time, and where posters are happy to suggest the use of the 'other' community in Northern Ireland as proxy bombs.

I suggest your idea that protestant paramilitaries and not republicans burnt out members of their own community to be complete fantasy, as equally fantastical as the idea that you personally know a Protestant Republican from the Short Strand.

I would like other peoples input on this.

Why was Cluan Place also shut off by masked UVF members to the media pogón?

Well lets see what the media had to say ...........
http://www.cluanplace.co.uk/clmedia.htm

A little different to your version I believe.

pogoń

FTA69 wrote:

Sinn Féin teaches the "hatred" of nobody, we teach the opposition to occupying forces and a bigoted ideology. We do not single people out because of their nationality, skin colour or religion. You still have yet to provide examples of Ógra Shinn Féin teaching the "hatred of prods".

Actions speak louder than words................

http://www.peacelines.de/02muralsprot/murp027.htm

Nothing to do with hatred of course ...........

mycroft

Is anyway else getting the vibe of that classic trek episode with the guys with the one side of their face black and the other white?

And on a glib note...

I bet 30 klatuts on the newcomer.......

cdebru

pogo&#324 wrote:

Would you like to provide links to show us images of the BNP and combat 18 plaques?

Or are they figments of your imagination like your Belfast Protestant Republican friend?



I wasn't aware that I was quoting a 'bovver-boy site'.

Whatever the site is it is far less offensive than www.irbb.rr.nu , the fan boy site of the Omagh bombers, where you spend most of your time, and where posters are happy to suggest the use of the 'other' community in Northern Ireland as proxy bombs.

I suggest your idea that protestant paramilitaries and not republicans burnt out members of their own community to be complete fantasy, as equally fantastical as the idea that you personally know a Protestant Republican from the Short Strand.

I would like other peoples input on this.



Well lets see what the media had to say ...........
http://www.cluanplace.co.uk/clmedia.htm

A little different to your version I believe.

i dont know much about cluan place

but here is what i googled

http://www.geocities.com/irishafa/cluan.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,2763,825345,00.html

http://www.serve.com/pfc/sattacks/nov02att.html

http://www.info-nordirland.de/new_238_e.htm


needless to say they dont back up your version of the place

pogoń

So 1-0 to FTA then, if you agree that the residents of Cluan place, despite many being of advanced age, are Nazi skinheads who burnt down their own houses, as evidenced by reports in the objective and non-sectarian 'Angrytown News'.

BTW I don't really have my own version of events and am quite happy to let the pictures speak for themselves.

Here is the report from the police ombudsman .............

www.policeombudsman.org/Reports.cfm?Catld+i&ID=50&action=detail

pogoń

So 1-0 to FTA then, if you agree that the residents of Cluan place, despite many being of advanced age, are Nazi skinheads who burnt down their own houses, as evidenced by reports in the objective and non-sectarian 'Angrytown News'.

BTW I don't really have my own version of events and am quite happy to let the pictures speak for themselves.

Here is the report from the police ombudsman .............

www.policeombudsman.org/Reports.cfm?Catld+1&ID=50&action=detail

cdebru

pogo&#324 wrote:

So 1-0 to FTA then, if you agree that the residents of Cluan place, despite many being of advanced age, are Nazi skinheads who burnt down their own houses, as evidenced by reports in the objective and non-sectarian 'Angrytown News'.

BTW I don't really have my own version of events and am quite happy to let the pictures speak for themselves.

Here is the report from the police ombudsman .............

www.policeombudsman.org/Reports.cfm? Catld+1&ID=50&action=detail

yeah and i suppose the gaurdian and the anti fascists are just cover names for the provos

i read the ombudsman report and i found it interesting it says stones were being thrown from both sides
and that loyalist were trying to raise flags to inflame the situation

and oddly that there was no cctv or police video footage

pogoń

(Sorry I can't get link to work properly).

To be honest I believe I have claimed very little, only that a group of houses the Protestant side of a peace-line were burnt out by Republicans.

Which is what happened.

I don't doubt that loyalists are more than capable of acting in a similar manner.

However (from the photographic evidence) far more damage was done to houses on the Protestant side of the peace line.

And from the report of the police ombudsman, (a more objective source than Angrytown News from where you get two of your links), it would appear that most of the violence emanated from the Catholic side of the divide.

I find it astonishing that you regard the flying of British flags by British citizens within the United Kingdom fro their own houses to be a 'provocation'.

I am not writing this to 'prove' that Protestants/Unionists are in some way morally superior to Catholics/Republicans.

They aren't.

I just want to show that FTAs assertion that Republicanism is in some way non-sectarian is complete and utter bollocks.

As is his idea that Protestants are tolerated by their Catholic neighbours in Republican strongholds.

P.S. I wouldn't regard the Guardian reports or those of the anti-facists as being objective.

cdebru

from the ombudsman report

"Upon speaking to residents of Cluan Place, police discovered that they were planning to erect flags. Officers informed them that this could be deemed to be provocative, "

true

FTA69 wrote:

Republicans adopted that strategy to try and bring about a united socialist Republic. The Nazis used this strategy to bring about facism, as you can see what you pointed out above draws a stark difference between the twon organisations to be honest.

FTA69, you still do not deny "Nazism , the idology of Hitler Youth, started off in the early thirties with its slogan " a pistol in one hand and a ballot box in the other ". Now where did I hear something about a klashnikov in one hand and a ballot box in the other ?. It was Sinn Fein/IRA.
That was my point. The two strategies are the same. The nNazis used the strategy for National Socialism, Sinn Fein used the exact same strategy to try to achieve a nationalist socialist state.

FTA69 wrote:

That term ( Brits) is taken by nearly everyone to mean the British Army and the government behind it. It never has meant the Unionist community as you so mischevously alledge.

I did not "mischevously alledge" it meant the Unionist community. I wrote simply "Who do you mean by the "Brits"? A nation of 60 or 70 million people. "
Next time I hear someone calling someone a " west brit" or a "brit" I'll bear that in mind. I do not think that "nearly everyone" understands it " to mean the British Army and the government behind it ".
It is nice to know what you mean anyway.

FTA69 wrote:

Yes, the British Army often extra-judicially killed innocent people either directly or through colluding with Loyalist death-squads ie John Francis Green or Cllr Eddie Fullerton.

You gave the above answer to my question "you now alledge they commit "crimes" by extra-judicially killing unarmed people in different states?"
What "different states" were they killed in ?

FTA69 wrote:

To quote a British general, "we are at war with the Provisional IRA". Besides, by your logic there can be no such thing as a civil war as there was no declaration of war between soveriegn states. War is more than pieces of paper. As for the Geneva Convention, the Nazis never followed it while they were mass killing their prisoners and neither were the British Army in this country when they were extra-judicially killing unarmed people.

The above was your answer when I wrote " war had been declared between Germany and the UK and both countries followed the Geneva convention. The IRA never followed the Geneva convention".
I wrote that the IRA never followed the Geneva convention. Did they? The British general who you refer to may have said "we are at war with the Provisional IRA" meaning the British army had to defend itself from the IRA. There was not a declaratiuon of war between two countries. Of course "War is more than pieces of paper", it is bits of bodies being blown up etc etc. You say, "As for the Geneva Convention, the Nazis never followed it " : actually, with the exception of a few isolated incidents , (which unfortunately are difficult to avoid in a war of such scale anyway due to army discipline problems , such as the murder of a few dozen British prisoners in a barn in Northern France ) the Nazis treated their British prisoners very honourably, and vice versa. The Nazis did not have the same respect for some other groups. Anyway, are you claiming that Bad Nazi behaviour would excuse IRA atrocities? It sounds as if you are. Likewise, to compare the " British Army in this country when they were extra-judicially killing unarmed people." as you say to the Nazi era does you no favours. We all know how the Nazis murdered countless Jews, Gypsies, Russian prisoners of war etc etc.

FTA69 wrote:

No they weren't, British soldiers and economic structures were targeted. There is a stark difference and well you know it.

I had written "Innocent civilians wre targeted and killed in each civilian location." Le Mon restaurant : only people out having a quiet meal. Many killed. Bloody Friday: bombs go off in Belfast city centre : many civilians killed. Teebane. Enniskillen. Kingsmill. The list goes on.

FTA69, you remind me of the german guards in WW2 who pushed the Jews in to the gas chambers, telling them they were showers. "There is a stark difference and well you know it."

pogoń

cdebru wrote:

from the ombudsman report

"Upon speaking to residents of Cluan Place, police discovered that they were planning to erect flags. Officers informed them that this could be deemed to be provocative, "

I don't see how erecting a flag of your own country from your own house on a national holiday could reasonably be regarded as provocative.

cdebru

pogo&#324 wrote:

I don't see how erecting a flag of your own country from your own house on a national holiday could reasonably be regarded as provocative.

ok you dont see it as provocative the PSNI tought it was unless the PSNI are biased republicans as well

and where did it say from their own homes

BTW what national holiday is on the 10th of august

pogoń

cdebru wrote:

ok you dont see it as provocative the PSNI tought it was unless the PSNI are biased republicans as well

and where did it say from their own homes

BTW what national holiday is on the 10th of august

I don't know that that the PSNI regarded it as provocative as the word 'deemed' was used.

More foolhardy than provocative.

I presume the flags were raised in their own homes as these people were described in the police reprt as being 'residents'.

The 'holiday' is my mistake, although this is usually when flags are raised.

Whatever you think of residents raising flags, surely you don't imagine this sufficient justification for them to be burnt out by republicans ......... or do you?

true

pogo&#324 wrote:

Whatever you (cdebru) think of residents raising flags, surely you don't imagine this sufficient justification for them to be burnt out by republicans ......... or do you?

Cdebru has already admitted on this board that he is a republican. I do not think republicans ever got too worried about burning out unionists. If we cannot expect them to condemn the murder of a mother of ten as a crime, what hope have we of getting them to condemn the burning down of houses that have Union Jacks ?

FTA69

Would you like to provide links to show us images of the BNP and combat 18 plaques?

Cdebru addressed that issue I believe.

Whatever the site is it is far less offensive than www.irbb.rr.nu , the fan boy site of the Omagh bombers, where you spend most of your time, and where posters are happy to suggest the use of the 'other' community in Northern Ireland as proxy bombs.

I don't post there that often anymore and besides, how can I be held responsible for what other people say? It is an open discussion forum, rather like this one.

I suggest your idea that protestant paramilitaries and not republicans burnt out members of their own community to be complete fantasy, as equally fantastical as the idea that you personally know a Protestant Republican from the Short Strand.

It is estimated that nearly 25% of people there are of Protestant descent or currently Protestant now. It has one of the highest records of mixed marriages in the Six Counties. There are many Protestants within the area but contrary to your attempts to religionise the conflict, the fact doesn't change there are Protestant Republicans. (And Catholic Unionists for that matter.) Also, what is your opinion of Billy Leanord, a Protestant Sinn Féin councillor in Coleraine who has been the target of much intimidation and thuggery from Loyalist death squads?

FTA69

The nNazis used the strategy for National Socialism, Sinn Fein used the exact same strategy to try to achieve a nationalist socialist state.

Rubbish, there is no similarities in the ideology of the Nazis and the ideology of Republicanism. Sinn Féin is a Republican Socialist party in the tradition of James Connolly and Wolfe Tone, we do not seek to create any sort of racial or cultural purity. The use of armed struggle in conjunction with an electoral campaign does not equate with Nazism, were the Republican Movement in 1918 facists also? By your logic they were.

I did not "mischevously alledge" it meant the Unionist community. I wrote simply "Who do you mean by the "Brits"? A nation of 60 or 70 million people. "
Next time I hear someone calling someone a " west brit" or a "brit" I'll bear that in mind. I do not think that "nearly everyone" understands it " to mean the British Army and the government behind it ".
It is nice to know what you mean anyway.

The slogan "Brits Out" was never directed at the Unionist community but at the British establsihment. Now that I have clarified my views on this subject I hope this matter is dealt with.

You gave the above answer to my question "you now alledge they commit "crimes" by extra-judicially killing unarmed people in different states?"
What "different states" were they killed in ?

John Francis Green was killed in Monaghan by either Loyalists colluding with the brits or else British agents themselves. They also killed an English tourist in Louth in 1979. Not to mention the car load of heavily armed SAS found on the southern side of the border. I wonder what they were up to, or maybe the world's most elite force simply lost the map?

I wrote that the IRA never followed the Geneva convention. Did they?

In many cases no, they ignored it when it suited them. As did the British Army and every other army for that matter.

Of course "War is more than pieces of paper", it is bits of bodies being blown up etc etc.

Exactly, war is not confined to the remits of the Geneva Convention.

You say, "As for the Geneva Convention, the Nazis never followed it " : actually, with the exception of a few isolated incidents , (which unfortunately are difficult to avoid in a war of such scale anyway due to army discipline problems , such as the murder of a few dozen British prisoners in a barn in Northern France ) the Nazis treated their British prisoners very honourably, and vice versa.

And what about the prisoners in Aushwitz, Dachau and Belsen?

Anyway, are you claiming that Bad Nazi behaviour would excuse IRA atrocities?

Absolutely not, I never drew comparisons between the Nazi and IRA disregard of the GC, rather comparisons between the IRA and British breaches of the Convention. When quoting that agreement you are being two-faced as you refuse to condemn the breaches of one side.

FTA69, you remind me of the german guards in WW2 who pushed the Jews in to the gas chambers, telling them they were showers. "There is a stark difference and well you know it."

You're pathetic, and what's more you insult those who died in the concentration camps when you draw comparisons between their situation and Irish Republicanism.

john_grimm

>>The two strategies are the same. The nNazis used the strategy for National Socialism, Sinn Fein used the exact same strategy to try to achieve a nationalist socialist state.

That doesn't even deserve an answer. Usually when debating the first one to mention the nazi's is the one who has nothing else to grab at.

>>Next time I hear someone calling someone a " west brit" or a "brit" I'll bear that in mind

And who would you mean when you say Brit ? Are you Irish ?
Its been nearly a century since we got our independence and yet i think we have never been more of a British country then we are at the moment. Kids don't follow Cork, or Kilkenny or Kerry, They follow Man Utd, Southhampton and Liverpool.

The only good thing that we have going for us is the economy which i suppose is grand because thats all that people seem to care about anymore anyways.

>>I wrote that the IRA never followed the Geneva convention. Did they?

If you believe or anyone else here for that matter believes that any Army follows the Geneva convention to the letter or even at all when it doesn't suit them, then you are a sheltered nieve individual indeed.

If you had any knowledge of any military operations in the world in the last century you would realise that the geneva convention is nothing but a formality. It means very little at the best of times. If its convient for them to follow it they will, if its not convient, they won't. Its that simple.

cdebru

pogo&#324 wrote:

I don't know that that the PSNI regarded it as provocative as the word 'deemed' was used.

More foolhardy than provocative.

I presume the flags were raised in their own homes as these people were described in the police reprt as being 'residents'.

The 'holiday' is my mistake, although this is usually when flags are raised.

Whatever you think of residents raising flags, surely you don't imagine this sufficient justification for them to be burnt out by republicans ......... or do you?

ok they deemed it as provocative

if you dont think it was aimed at provoking a reaction why would it be foolhardy


the quote from the ombudsman report

"Upon speaking to residents of Cluan Place, police discovered that they were planning to erect flags"

it doesn't say from their homes

i dont believe that either side should deliberately try to provoke any response from the other side
from reading reports it seems that loyalist gangs are entering cluan place with the deliberate intention of attacking nationalist homes and provoking a response but no i dont think any one should have their house burnrd down because they fly a flag even if flyiing the flag is done to provoke rather that any other reason

cdebru

just a suggestion for

john grimm and fta69

i have stopped as of yesterday replying to trues childish pathetic attempts at justification for his obvious self loathing

i believe answering him only encourages him and that he is deliberately trying to provoke a response

to help you to ignore him you can place him on your ignore list then his posts dont even show up perhaps if nobody rose to his bait he could learn about the history of this country in his spare time

true

FTA69 wrote:

Rubbish, there is no similarities in the ideology of the Nazis and the ideology of Republicanism. Sinn Féin is a Republican Socialist party in the tradition of James Connolly and Wolfe Tone, we do not seek to create any sort of racial or cultural purity. The use of armed struggle in conjunction with an electoral campaign does not equate with Nazism, were the Republican Movement in 1918 facists also? By your logic they were.

FTA69, you still do not deny "Nazism , the idology of Hitler Youth, started off in the early thirties with its slogan " a pistol in one hand and a ballot box in the other ". Now where did I hear something about a klashnikov in one hand and a ballot box in the other ?. It was Sinn Fein / IRA.That was my point. The two strategies are the same. The Nazis used the strategy for National Socialism, Sinn Fein used the exact same strategy to try to achieve a nationalist socialist state. As regards racial or cultural purity, I know many English / British people who were intimidated or burnt out of Ireland in the early decades of last century.

FTA69 wrote:

The slogan "Brits Out" was never directed at the Unionist community but at the British establsihment. Now that I have clarified my views on this subject I hope this matter is dealt with.

I did not mention the slogan " Brits out". I wrote simply "Who do you mean by the "Brits"? A nation of 60 or 70 million people.? "
Next time I hear someone calling someone a " west brit" or a "brit" I'll bear that in mind. I do not think that "nearly everyone" understands it " to mean the British Army and the government behind it ".
It is nice to know what you mean anyway. The establishment. I have heard someone being quizzed in a pub here in the 26 counties, in a not too pleasant tone of voice " Are you a Brit? " Now I know , thanks to FTA69 a chara, that the person was enquiring to see were they part of the establishment. Thats all right then.

FTA69 wrote:

John Francis Green was killed in Monaghan by either Loyalists colluding with the brits or else British agents themselves. They also killed an English tourist in Louth in 1979.

Or else he was an informer killed by the IRA, or else he was an innocent person killed by people from Mars. Is this all you can come up with to prove your allegation that " they ( the Brits ) commit "crimes" by extra-judicially killing unarmed people in different states?"

FTA69 wrote:

Not to mention the car load of heavily armed SAS found on the southern side of the border. I wonder what they were up to, or maybe the world's most elite force simply lost the map?

I never found them. Maybe some friendly local gave then wrong directions by mistake ? Who cares ? It would not be the first time a mistake was made. Or maybe they were looking for a few terrorists.

FTA69 wrote:

In many cases no, they ignored it when it suited them. As did the British Army and every other army for that matter.

When war had been declared between Germany and the UK , both countries followed the Geneva convention. The IRA never followed the Geneva convention.

FTA69 wrote:

Exactly, war is not confined to the remits of the Geneva Convention.

I had written "Innocent civilians wre targeted and killed in each civilian location." Le Mon restaurant : only people out having a quiet meal. Many killed. Bloody Friday: bombs go off in Belfast city centre : many civilians killed. Teebane. Enniskillen. Kingsmill. The list goes on. The IRA's "war" / terrorist campaign was not confined to the remits of the Geneva Convention. Exactly.

FTA69 wrote:

And what about the prisoners in Aushwitz, Dachau and Belsen?

I said that , FTA69. PLease learn to read more carefully I wrote "We all know how the Nazis murdered countless Jews, Gypsies, Russian prisoners of war etc etc.". These are some of the people who were prisoners in Aushwitz, Dachau and Belsen?

FTA69 wrote:

Absolutely not, I never drew comparisons between the Nazi and IRA disregard of the GC, rather comparisons between the IRA and British breaches of the Convention.

The comparison was between the Nazis and Sinn Fein / IRA , the two organisations who believe in the strategy of a gun in one hand and a ballot box in the other. The thing the Broitish have in common with both groups is that they stood up to both, and refuse to be defeated by either.

FTA69 wrote:

When quoting that agreement you are being two-faced as you refuse to condemn the breaches of one side.

I condemn all breaches of the Geneva convention. No problem. Happy now?

FTA69

FTA69, you still do not deny "Nazism , the idology of Hitler Youth, started off in the early thirties with its slogan " a pistol in one hand and a ballot box in the other ". Now where did I hear something about a klashnikov in one hand and a ballot box in the other ?. It was Sinn Fein / IRA.That was my point. The two strategies are the same. The Nazis used the strategy for National Socialism, Sinn Fein used the exact same strategy to try to achieve a nationalist socialist state.

Ok, so the combined use of armed struggle and electoral campaigning is equated with Nazis automatically in your eyes? Were the likes of Arthur Griffith or Cathal Brugha facists then in your eyes. The British and Nazis also had common strategies (the mass bombing of civilians), it doesn't make the two politically comparable though. I'm nearly sure you're messing, failing that you are simply disingenious.

As regards racial or cultural purity, I know many English / British people who were intimidated or burnt out of Ireland in the early decades of last century.

What's your point? That carry on was actually initiated by local Catholic elements, Republicans were as much a target. Scores of activists were intimidated out of Connemara and when Peader O'Donnell spoke in the west in the 30s Catholic mobs stoned him with razor studded potatoes.

Or else he was an informer killed by the IRA, or else he was an innocent person killed by people from Mars. Is this all you can come up with to prove your allegation that " they ( the Brits ) commit "crimes" by extra-judicially killing unarmed people in different states?"

John Francis Green was killed by either Loyalists colluding with the brits or else the brits themselves. But no, he was killed by the IRA because we all know the British Army would never kill anyone... :rolleyes:

As for the tourist in Louth, he wasn't killed by people from Mars. He was killed by the British Army who were firing from South Down into Louth.

I never found them.

No, the guards did.

When war had been declared between Germany and the UK , both countries followed the Geneva convention.

Ah, no they didn't. Both the British and Germans killed hundreds of thousands by dropping bombs on civilians. The Germans also had a penchant for the auld genocide, you note this yourself but then go on to say they adhered to the convention. What exactly governs your posts true, because it certainly isn't logical thought.

The IRA never followed the Geneva convention.

And neither did the British Army. What's your point? Or are we to go around the discussion merry-go-round again?

The IRA's war was not confined to the remits of the Geneva Convention. Exactly.

And neither was anyone else's war. Again what's your point caller?

I said that , FTA69. PLease learn to read more carefully I wrote "We all know how the Nazis murdered countless Jews, Gypsies, Russian prisoners of war etc etc.". These are some of the people who were prisoners in Aushwitz, Dachau and Belsen?

But yet you say the Nazis followed the Geneva Convention.

The comparison was between the Nazis and Sinn Fein / IRA , the two organisations who believe in the strategy of a gun in one hand and a ballot box in the other. The thing the Broitish have in common with both groups is that they stood up to both, and refuse to be defeated by either.

Yep, stirring chaps those British. Stiff upper lip and all that, tally ho.

I condemn all breaches of the Geneva convention. No problem. Happy now?

How come you cite only IRA breaches then?

pogoń

FTA69 wrote:

Cdebru addressed that issue I believe. (The images of the UDA and combat 18 plaques).

He hasn't.

Cluan place has been very extensively photographed, including by SF/IRA propagandists.

If such plaques existed it would be possible to post an image.

No image has yet been posted onto this board, so I feel it safe to assume no such plaques exist.

(Of the Short Strand)It is estimated that nearly 25% of people there are of Protestant descent or currently Protestant now. It has one of the highest records of mixed marriages in the Six Counties. There are many Protestants within the area

From my own knowledge of Belfast I feel you are somewhat misguided on this point.

However I have done a little research on the subject, and discovered that the Protestant population were requested to leave the area by 'non-sectarian community activists' in the early seventies.

I don't believe community relations have improved greatly since.

For example a few years ago 3 Australian tourists were mistaken for Protestants in the Short Strand, and were beaten unconscious to the extent of requiring plastic surgery.

Evidence 'Flight' (1971):

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/housing/docs/flight.htm

The area Bryson Street, Madrid Street (The Short Strand) was previously mixed, but is now almost totally Catholic. 98 families evacuated from their homes.

but contrary to your attempts to religionise the conflict, the fact doesn't change there are Protestant Republicans. (And Catholic Unionists for that matter.) Also, what is your opinion of Billy Leanord, a Protestant Sinn Féin councillor in Coleraine who has been the target of much intimidation and thuggery from Loyalist death squads?

And the fact doesn't change that 99% of Republicans are Catholics.

I am not sympathetic to Billy Leonard.

Having said this he is as entitled to his opinion as I am to mine and I would not wish to see him intimidated.

john_grimm

>>That was my point. The two strategies are the same. The Nazis used the strategy for National Socialism, Sinn Fein used the exact same strategy to try to achieve a nationalist socialist state.

In a state where the voting was rigged against not only them, but any person of nationalist/catholic background.

In a state which see's your existance as third class at best, in a state where the very police and the government are against you what choice do you have ?

Without the IRA even though i do not agree with a lot of what they have done, and completely disagree with a lot of their methods, NI would have changed much much slower if at all. Civil Rights marches was never going to get anywhere.

>>Who cares ? It would not be the first time a mistake was made. Or maybe they were looking for a few terrorists.

Who cares ? Because the armed force of another state entered our state without permission for the purpose of kidnapping one of our citizens. Regardless of what he was or done that is not the right way to do things and is considered a very serious incident no matter what border you were crossing.

Are you Irish ?

>>When war had been declared between Germany and the UK , both countries followed the Geneva convention.

To an extent that suited them.

Tell me, what was the bombing of German cities in aid of ? Many of them had no military targets to speak of at all.

The Americans frequently murdered Japanese and German POW's as is very well documented and i'm willing to bet the British did the same, just not well documented.

>>The list goes on. The IRA's "war" / terrorist campaign was not confined to the remits of the Geneva Convention. Exactly.

No military campaign ever conducted has been. What is your point ?
Please not here that i am not calling the IRA's campaign a legal nor a military campaign by an army, i am simply pointing out the fact that no armed force has ever upheld the Geneva convention fully in any armed conflict.

The only thing that seperates a lot of "terrorist" actions from "military" actions is that the "military" actions have been conducted by armed forces of known and accepted states.

If the IRA in the 20's had failed then they too would be known as terrorists, does that make them so ? If george Washington had failed he would be known as a terrorist. The list goes on.

>>The thing the Broitish have in common with both groups is that they stood up to both, and refuse to be defeated by either.

I take back my earlier question, your obviously not Irish.

Stood up to them ? If Hitler had agreed to leave Britain alone they wouldn't have poked their nose into the war at all.

pete

true wrote:

Now where did I hear something about a klashnikov in one hand and a ballot box in the other

That would be an Armalite, actually, and you can thank Danny Morrison at the 1981 Sinn Fein Ard Fheis for it.

pogoń

john_grimm wrote:

Stood up to them ? If Hitler had agreed to leave Britain alone they wouldn't have poked their nose into the war at all.

History would not appear to be your strong point.

Britain declared war on Germany when Hitler attacked Poland.

Hitler was a grat admirer of Britain, and had every intention of 'leaving Britain alone'.

Unlike Russia and the USA Britain etered the war voluntarily, not after being attacked.

FTA69

Cluan place has been very extensively photographed, including by SF/IRA propagandists.

No it hasn't. The UVF keep a tight lid on the place although the Andytown News did manage to get in, their report is here;

http://www.info-nordirland.de/new_238_e.htm

From my own knowledge of Belfast I feel you are somewhat misguided on this point.

Not really, CAIN also had this to say on the subject of mixed marriages in general,

Data obtained from the Catholic Diocesan office (Robinson, 1992) reveal that, in 1991, 20% of all marriages in the Down and Connor diocese were mixed; the comparable figure for the Armagh diocese was 4% and for the Derry Diocese it was 9%. Further analysis of the 1993 Northern Ireland Social Attitude data by area of residence reveals a variation of 8.4% in Belfast, 6.2% in the East of the Province and 2.2 % in the West.

While not specific to the Short Strand it illustrates the thousands of mixed marriages across the Six Counties and certainly underlines the reality that in Nationalist areas there are many Protestants, especially in areas such as the Short Strand where communities are in such close proximities to each other. I also stayed with a couple in Turf Lodge where the wife was originally from the Shankill.

For example a few years ago 3 Australian tourists were mistaken for Protestants in the Short Strand, and were beaten unconscious to the extent of requiring plastic surgery.

What's your point? I never said that all Nationalists in the area are absolute saints, but this type of activity is a rare occurence in Nationalist communities. Contrast that with the UVF and UDA burning out Chinese immigrants in their areas.

And the fact doesn't change that 99% of Republicans are Catholics.

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean that religion dictates the Republican agenda.

I am not sympathetic to Billy Leonard.

So you acknowledge that Sinn Féin has a Protestant councillor but earlier on you say; "I just want to show that FTAs assertion that Republicanism is in some way non-sectarian is complete and utter bollocks.

As is his idea that Protestants are tolerated by their Catholic neighbours in Republican strongholds."

How is Billy Leanord compatible with your ridiculous statement?

pogoń

I don't believe the fact that Sinn Fein has one Protestant councillor proves them to be non-sectarian.

Neither does the fact that there are a significant number of mixed marriages in NI prove that 25% of the population of the Short Strand is proteatant.

If you seriously believe hard-line Republican areas to be non-sectarian prove it by wandering round them in a Rangers shirt.