Sinn Féin - IRA split?

fester

true wrote:

Can you really believe the words of a man who has held high office in both Sinn Fein and the provos, when both organisations have been caught out time and time again eg over the Adare murder. Its not as if they own the high moral ground.

I don't expect any politician to tell the truth all the time. So I have to judge for myself. This time, yes, I believe his words.

Paddyo

Before I say anything - this is only my opinion

If anyone thinks for one second that the security forces do not know who is on the army council then they must be really naive.

Why dont they arrest them? - Better the devil you know!!

Paddyo

jman0

Paddyo wrote:

Before I say anything - this is only my opinion

If anyone thinks for one second that the security forces do not know who is on the army council then they must be really naive.

Why dont they arrest them? - Better the devil you know!!

Paddyo

So you believe it's better for intelligence services to allow for things like bombings that result in dead civilians because at least they know who the Army council is? wtf

mycroft

irish1 wrote:

Thats a very sweeping accusation and complete nonsense, I'm really get sick of some of the posts in this forum, and the mods don't seem to see anything wrong.

People can't discuss SF without throwing wild accusations around.

Are you telling me that the IRA men who carry out punishment attacks, aren't members of SF? SF is the IRA's political wing.

Adams et all constantly "condemn" these acts of violence, but rather than censure the people (and it would be an easy matter for SF to find out who is on these punishment squads) Adams et all ignore them.

Sinn Fein fete and praise killers and thugs while at the same time condemning violence, fine bit of doublethink

Stabshauptmann

irish1 wrote:

Mods I really think these people shouldn't be allowed to post such comments without proof, it's not as if their posting these comments by saying "IMHO......"

They are posting their comments as if they are facts, and if the Taoiseach of our state can't say who is on the army council I don't see how these people can say.

The taoiseach can, he choose not to because he wants the peace process to succeed. He personally has done a lot for the process and often at his own partie's expense.

There is sufficent prof in the form of witnesses and informants, more than enough to get adams on a memberrship charge. He has been inprisoned before and could if the governments want again. But they dont, its not in the interest of peace

Stabshauptmann

mycroft wrote:

Are you telling me that the IRA men who carry out punishment attacks, aren't members of SF? SF is the IRA's political wing.

Quite possible, there have been members of the army council who were never members of SF.

Adams et all constantly "condemn" these acts of violence, but rather than censure the people (and it would be an easy matter for SF to find out who is on these punishment squads) Adams et all ignore them.

There are a few possible reasons for this, it isnt very easy to control things on the ground and every now and then Adams and his group have to give hard core lads leeve way to alleviate tensions

Sinn Fein fete and praise killers and thugs while at the same time condemning violence, fine bit of doublethink

True. But a neccessity of the peace process. Tell the IRA one thing and the governemnts anothere, but the problem is that the peace process will eventually reach a point beyond which only one position will be acceptable and either these two positions will converge or the process will br.

mycroft

Necromancer wrote:

Quite possible, there have been members of the army council who were never members of SF.

Can you site examples please

There are a few possible reasons for this, it isnt very easy to control things on the ground and every now and then Adams and his group have to give hard core lads leeve way to alleviate tensions

Oh well thats alright. I want to alleviate tension I play GTA SA, drink some wine, have a spliff, get laid. if the lads in the north want to alleviate tension they could maybe I dunno, take up squash, do some hurley. Not cripple some joyrider.

True. But a neccessity of the peace process. Tell the IRA one thing and the governemnts anothere, but the problem is that the peace process will eventually reach a point beyond which only one position will be acceptable and either these two positions will converge or the process will br.

Right......

One day they're going to do a PHd on miltant nationalist republican logic in the north. The course should come with a health warning;

"People who have ethics, morality, and a sense of realism should avoid this course as the logic suggested will make your brain leak out your ears."

Paddyo

jman0 wrote:

So you believe it's better for intelligence services to allow for things like bombings that result in dead civilians because at least they know who the Army council is? wtf

No jman0, please dont try to put words in my mouth.
They might have a better chance of stopping the bombings etc if they know who is organising them.

IF they arrested the members of the 'Army' council can you tell me what it would achieve? SFA in my opinion. Other 'volunteers' would replace them. Then the security forces would have to retrain their surveillance on these new people.

Paddyo

Sleepy

irish1 wrote:

Well Gerry asked him to stand up that claim and he couldn't. The Taoiseach also stated in the dail that he did not know who was on the IRA army council, Bertie is going on assumptions and we all know that "assumptions are the mother of all f**k ups"

Like assuming that "economic targets" won't injure innocent civilians?

For the last time: stop throwing rocks when you're in a greenhouse with already cracked panes of glass.

Sleepy

My own take on this. I believe that neither Adams nor McGuinness are members of the current Army Council. I believe that both have been commander in chief and used that position to ensure that the current Army Council is little more than a bunch of their 'yes men'. This would appear to fit in with the IRA/Sinn Fein (I won't say Republican because I know many Republicans that despise both organisations) modus opperandum, giving Adams and McGuinness "credible deniability" when asked about their positions on the Council, I don't think they're on it, I think they own it.

jman0

Paddyo wrote:

No jman0, please dont try to put words in my mouth.
They might have a better chance of stopping the bombings etc if they know who is organising them.

IF they arrested the members of the 'Army' council can you tell me what it would achieve? SFA in my opinion. Other 'volunteers' would replace them. Then the security forces would have to retrain their surveillance on these new people.

Paddyo

It would be their JOB to arrest them.
Removing the entire leadership of any organization whether it is a business, government, army, guerilla whatever; is hugely disruptive to that organization. Do you believe HMG would avoid their responsibilites and decline to remove the IRA leadership because of it would be some sort of hassle or something to "retrain their surveillance"?
That seems absurd.

Paddyo

jman0

In theory you are absolutely correct. They should arrest criminals - i.e. the army council.

However, life is not so black and white.

In practice, their knowledge of the existing army council, the people, their contacts, their whereabouts, their modus operandi is of far more use than simply throwing them in prison.

Are you seriously suggesting that HMG do not know who is on the army council?

I know that army cadets in training in this country are told who is on the army council.

jman0

Paddyo wrote:

jman0

Are you seriously suggesting that HMG do not know who is on the army council?

I know that army cadets in training in this country are told who is on the army council.

I am absolutely suggesting that. The proof being that the IRA is still an existing organization and that the IRA army council hasn't been rounded up and arrested or shot in the back of the head (like HMG does to volunteers in the past).

In my opinion your army cadets are filled with complete BS, being the case that Loyalist terrorists would not exercise restraint in murdering them and if army cadets are told information, that information would quickly make its way to the public.

Why do you believe HMG knows the IRA Army Council, doesn't appear that allegedly knowing has made them much safer...

jman0

jman0 wrote:

I am absolutely suggesting that. The proof being that the IRA is still an existing organization and that the IRA army council hasn't been rounded up and arrested or shot in the back of the head (like HMG does to volunteers in the past).

I would think that the Gardaí(never mind the PSNI) would have anybody who they think are in anyway connected with that council under lots of observation both subtle and not so subtle.
They may not have a formal list of it's members but they know who meets who, how many attended the meeting and how often they meet up.

Now they could be talking about the price of sheep at these observed gatherings but the Gardaí and investigative journalists would say otherwise.
I'm sure they've probably even been bugged a few times, something thats not admissable in a court afaik.

Sand

Jmano - look at how the Gardai handled the RIRA. Their bomb unit was based out of a scrapyard on the backroads between Kilcock and Maynooth in Kildare. The Gardai had an informant, not in the RIRA unit, but closely connected to it. Thanks to him and surveillance technology they had the RIRA unit in their pocket and foiled bomb after bomb after bomb - the attempt to bomb the aintree races for example. They only arrested the actual dupes being used to deliver the bombs never the planners. Why?

Because they knew who the planners were and thus could keep tabs on what they were doing, thus foiling many *more* jobs and infecting the RIRA with panick/division because they *knew* they had to have an informant, but they never identified who and in the end it was the RIRA who shut down their kildare unit in despair and distrust. It was another rival unit which set up and deployed the Omagh bomb which slipped through the Gardais fingers because they didnt have as close an idea of who the planners were and what they were doing.

The same goes for the Army Council, but theres the added layer of realpolitick - they needed someone on the other side who could control the IRA and at some point in the future sign up to a peace deal - they were negotiating with the IRA ( Hi Gerry and Martin ) as far back as 1972. In conflicts its almost always the footsoldiers who make up the casualties, not the leadership. The IRA afterall is not a professional army, let alone an army - they wont go home if their cheques stop coming through from high command ( they provide their own income through extra-ciricular activites anyway as is obvious to all but the most deluded SF/IRA fanboy). Eliminate the leadership and the rank and file either swear allegiance to another unknown Army Council made up of even more fanatical terrorists - or worse still splinters into impossible to negotiate with hardliners.

true

jman0 wrote:

Why do you believe HMG knows the IRA Army Council, doesn't appear that allegedly knowing has made them much safer...

Things are a lot safer than they were.

Better the devil you know than the one you dont know. If the current IRA leadership was not there, it would be replaced with younger, more fanatical headcases. Besides, Gerry and Marty and the boys at the top nowadays are very careful not to get their hands dirty. It would be very difficult to pin anything to them in a court of law. Knowing something - with informers + bugging etc - and proving it are two different things. HMG will not stoop to the volunteers level and put a bomb in their hotel at their annual conference.

Villain

irish1 wrote:

Sand your posting articles that relate to the 1970's, how does this have anything to do with the IRA army counil of today?? FF were meant to have been involved in gun running in the past does that mean they are today?? Your logic here is crazy.

I have stated that I know they are not on the army council because I have not seen a single shred of evidence to prove otherwise and I happen to believe the leaders of the party I support, perhaps you may want more proof, but I thought accusations had to proven by those who make them, I mean how I can prove your wrong when you haven't proven your right??

As for P O'Neill I really don't care what his statements say.

So give us some proof instead of going back 30 years ago when there was no peace process.

Care to respond Sand??

Nuttzz

Ed Moloney's The Secert history of the IRA, pulished a few years ago claims that Adams and McGuinness were members of the Army Council, thats a big risk for the publishers to take if the author didnt have proof, I'm sure both men would have taken a legal action against Moloney and his publishers if they were not members but not action has taken place to date nor is one pending. Wonder why?

Link to book (its a very good, balanced read IMO)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/014101041X/qid=1108031869/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i14_xgl/202-1805210-9933412

The Corinthian

Personally, I don't think that we are going to see a return to 'the armed struggle', but largely for cynical reasons. The PIRA have been at this for a very long time and over the course of the decades, especially given that the bulk of the original, civil rights related, grievances are long gone and many PIRA members weren’t even born at the time of the hunger strikes, let alone the original civil rights movement, it was inevitable that the PIRA would essentially redefine itself.

Self-policing has long been a PIRA practice, on both an organizational and community level - understandable, given that nationalist-catholic communities could not realistically trust the loyalist-protestant dominated RUC. Additionally with ever decreasing donations from places such as the US for the cause, other sources of funding had to be exploited.

It’s at this point that I should probably highlight the following:

The Sicilian Mafia originated hundreds of years ago as a kind of protection society during the Spanish occupation of Sicily, although some claim that the term itself, if not the organization it denotes, can be traced back to the Sicilian Vespers in 1282, when the Sicilians threw off the yoke of French occupation. The locals felt they could not trust the Spanish law enforcement officials, and so formed their own protection societies, which developed into the Mafia.

Sound familiar?

So this is essentially why I think a return to full-scale military activities by the PIRA is unlikely. PIRA emphasis has shifted from ideologically motivated paramilitary activity to commercially motivated vigilantism and racketeering. After all, PIRA members have to support their families too. It’s not quite there yet, but before long there will be very little practical difference between the men of honour here and the Italian variety and a ideologically motivated ‘armed struggle' is generally not good for business.

jman0

true wrote:

...HMG will not stoop to the volunteers level and put a bomb in their hotel at their annual conference.

Stoop?
That was fecking Spectacular.

Sand

Care to respond Sand??

I would - but youve not engaged on any of the points Ive presented except saying it was 30 years ago - no ****, I thought 1972 was only last week!

Oh and you claim never to have seen a single shred of proof Adams was on the Army council and yet youve never explained why Adams negotiated on the behalf of the IRA 11 years before he became President of SF, or why Adams has never sued people who claim he is on the Army Council- when hes angrily denying SF and the IRA are connected. Surely it would make sense, personally and politically, to sue if he felt he could show up the claims as being baseless? But dont worry about that - just keep the endearing innocence, too many lose it when growing up.

Until you either accept or debunk the factual basis for my statement (that so upsets you) that the Army Council directs the SF/IRA machine, that SF and the IRA are one and the same and that Adams and McGuinness are on the Army Council I see no need to waste more time on you. Ive made a statement, Ive provided backup for that statement, and youve only waffled in response. End of.

Stoop?
That was fecking Spectacular.

See Irish1? Scratch a SF fanboy deep enough and you find a IRA fanboy.

Cork

People who work with paedophiles will tell you the toughest part of rehabilitation is getting them to accept that what they are doing constitutes abuse and not love. Similarly the provos need to accept that what they do constitues abuse of and not love for this country

Brendan O'Connor

I think todays IMC report will give food for tought on IRA criminal activity.

No doubt certain elements may try and rubbish the report or play the victim but it would be more in their line to face up to the findings of this report.

BCB

Cork wrote:

I think todays IMC report will give food for tought on IRA criminal activity.

No doubt certain elements may try and rubbish the report or play the victim but it would be more in their line to face up to the findings of this report.

The report IS rubbish,where is the evidence that the leadership of Sinn Fein knew in advance that this robbery was to take place?There is none because its untrue,why on earth would they give their approval or even have known about this knowing full well that it would totally destroy the peace process especially at such a delicate time in the process,it would have been Political suicide,again i ask where is the proof to substantiate these crass allegations?whatever about the Provos doing it which i believe they did although i believe it wasnt sanctioned by the Army Council,my opinion is that it was a group of renegade Provos who have become disaffected with the GFA,thats all very well but how how can this report and the likes of Ahern and the rest of the parasites in Leinster House and elsewhere accuse Sinn Fein of knowing about this..this report is a crock of s h i t designed to discredit and demonise the Republican movement....... :mad:

gurramok

It is very ODD that Gerry Adams was not arrested today when in dublin when this report came out accusing him of being the behind the biggest bank robbery on the island.
A line of gardai behind him on tv and yet they do nothing to arrest, always knew the gardai are useless.
Its a bit funny that the IMC consists of a Met anti-terrorist officer who probably spent his whole life chasing Adams and now is reading out a report with a staunch english accent.* (biased?)

Double standards ?

*nothing against accents, after all i was born in the uk !

true

jman0 wrote:

Stoop?
That was fecking Spectacular.

Are you condoning murdering people so, jmanO, and putting a middle aged woman in a wheelchair for the rest of her life?

true

gurramok wrote:

It is very ODD that Gerry Adams was not arrested today when in dublin when this report came out accusing him of being the behind the biggest bank robbery on the island.
A line of gardai behind him on tv and yet they do nothing to arrest, always knew the gardai are useless.
Its a bit funny that the IMC consists of a Met anti-terrorist officer who probably spent his whole life chasing Adams and now is reading out a report with a staunch english accent.* (biased?)

Double standards ?

*nothing against accents, after all i was born in the uk !

First ,It did not accuse him , Gerry Adams , personally of being behind the robbery.

Second, the International MC consists of more than this person you mention - and are you implying that he is biased because he is "Met anti-terrorist with a staunch english accent", as you say ? Double standards ??? Strong words.

The point is the whole world has woken up to Grizzly's little game , and is fed up of his "armalite in one hand and ballot box in the other" hippocracy.

gurramok

true wrote:

First ,It did not accuse him , Gerry Adams , personally of being behind the robbery.

Second, the International MC consists of more than this person you mention - and are you implying that he is biased because he is "Met anti-terrorist with a staunch english accent", as you say ? Double standards ??? Strong words.
.

Well, the leadership of SF comprises of the main man Gerry, why did the IMC not name the members ?
Oh yes, the IMC with John Alderdice, hardly impartial.

Johnny_the_fox

gurramok wrote:

Well, the leadership of SF comprises of the main man Gerry, why did the IMC not name the members ?
Oh yes, the IMC with John Alderdice, hardly impartial.

yet Alderdice was the one the first unionists to speak to SF after the IRA called its ceasefire in 1994. (which many unionists called as unacceptable..)

and his during time of leadership... his party...
"Alliance tabled indictments against the UUP and DUP for their actions at Drumcree in July 1996, where they brought the threat of civil disorder; against the UDP for a breach of the UDA cease-fire in January 1998; and against Sinn Fein for a breach of the IRA cease-fire in February 1998. While Alliance tabled the indictments, it was the decision of the British and Irish governments whether to expel the parties, and for how long. Alliance didn't table indictments with any desire to see parties expelled from the talks. Instead, the motivation was to ensure the basis of non violence and the rule of law...."

he seems very impartial there..

Zombrex

gurramok wrote:

Well, the leadership of SF comprises of the main man Gerry, why did the IMC not name the members ?
Oh yes, the IMC with John Alderdice, hardly impartial.

Has it ever dawned on people that everyone apart from Sinn Fein might trying to handle this issue sensitivily. SF are running around calling on the government to arrest Gerry Adams (yeah that would be a good idea for the peace process), and the government are simply saying "look lads, we know the IRA did this, you know the IRA did this, stop pissing everyone around"

Fitzgerald

Cork wrote:

The IRA does not have a mandate - It continues to see it's army council as a legitimate government.

Do you believe that Gerry Kelly is still in the PIRA? Because he was just on RTÉ Thursday scoffing at the idea that the Provisional Army Council is the legitimate government. It's quite clear that all senior PSF figures feel this way, so either the PIRA no longer maintain that the PAC is the legitimate govt., or senior PSF figures are no longer on the PAC.