Sinn Féin - IRA split?

Fitzgerald

Poblachtach wrote:

prostitution is bull**** black propaganda, as is drugs. I could care less about fuel and smokes, and the bank business isn't new. I could care less if they steal from a bank. it's not stealing from the people

Lets face it,you actually dont care if it was saddam hussein or the IRA that robbed the bank,i bet it had no effect on you(the bank robbery)

Hi General.

Fitzgerald

true wrote:

Regarding your second point, no they have not, not in the last troubles.

Yes... there have been quite a number of Protestant Republicans, especially in the INLA.

Regarding your first point, why then did the IRA murder Protestant workmen in the minibus just because these were workmen in the 70's ?

Kingsmills was a horrible incident. I'm not going to argue otherwise. It was, however, a desperate response to a long string of violent sectarian attacks by Loyalists on innocent Catholic civilians. The thinking was, in order to get that to end, the IRA would have to do likewise. The Protestant/Unionist communities would pressure the Loyalists to halt their sectarian campaign so that the same sort of thing wouldn't be visited upon them. - It was poor judgement on the part of Republicans and cannot be excused.

Why bomb Enniskillen in the 80's ?

The PIRA were targeting the British colour guard marching in the memorial parade. It was poorly conceived and, again, should never have happened. Listen, in war bad things happen. Mistakes get made. You pull the extremes out of the hat and suggest they not only represent the PIRA but the Republican Movement, and that they reflect a sectarian nature. Anyone could go through any war, pick out examples of horrible events and accidents and say, "See. this is what they are!" It's not a very intelligent argument.
Republicans fight with disregard for ones religion. They fight to unite Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter under the common banner of "Irishman". The reason religion has become such an issue is because the British have, once again, manipulated such a thing to their advantage. Anyone who knows their British history knows that it is an age-old and well-crafted tactic of British imperialism. Divide and conquer. Divide the "natives" and get them fighting amongst themselves. That way, A) they can focus less of their attention on us, and we can justify our presence by stepping in and acting the part of the "peace-maker", and under that guise, secure their claim.

Why ambush part time and retired Protestants security force personell along the border and shoot them in the back / put bombs under their cars ?

Because as you said, they are security force personnel. Just because they may be retired doesn't mean they are no longer involved in efforts to secure the Six Counties. See, for example, the man to whom I referred in another post, James Mitchell.
The "in the back" bit is a nice touch of sensationalism.

jbkenn

This is where the logic of your arguement, has no logic

Fitzgerald wrote:

Yes... there have been quite a number of Protestant Republicans, especially in the INLA.

So what, the INLA were an even nastier bunch of thugs than the PIRA.

Kingsmills was a horrible incident. I'm not going to argue otherwise. It was, however, a desperate response to a long string of violent sectarian attacks by Loyalists on innocent Catholic civilians. The thinking was, in order to get that to end, the IRA would have to do likewise. The Protestant/Unionist communities would pressure the Loyalists to halt their sectarian campaign so that the same sort of thing wouldn't be visited upon them. - It was poor judgement on the part of Republicans and cannot be excused.

That logic typifies the thinking in NI and is what perpetuated the cycle of violence, until the "they got one of ours, so we get one of theirs" mentality is removed from NI there will never be a peace, to sane and reasonable people this form of "logic" cuts no ice whatsoever.

Anyone who knows their British history knows that it is an age-old and well-crafted tactic of British imperialism. Divide and conquer. Divide the "natives" and get them fighting amongst themselves. That way, A) they can focus less of their attention on us, and we can justify our presence by stepping in and acting the part of the "peace-maker", and under that guise, secure their claim.

What British Empire?, last time I looked it was long gone, and exists only in the minds of the "Republican Movement"

Because as you said, they are security force personnel. Just because they may be retired doesn't mean they are no longer involved in efforts to secure the Six Counties. See, for example, the man to whom I referred in another post, James Mitchell.
The "in the back" bit is a nice touch of sensationalism.

By your logic, such attitudes, could be used to condone the murder of any member of Sinn Fein, because they were former members of the PIRA.

jbkenn

Fitzgerald

jbkenn wrote:

This is where the logic of your arguement, has no logic

So what, the INLA were an even nastier bunch of thugs than the PIRA.

Your opinion. Not a fact. (And probably an ill-informed opinion to boot.)

That logic typifies the thinking in NI and is what perpetuated the cycle of violence, until the "they got one of ours, so we get one of theirs" mentality is removed from NI there will never be a peace, to sane and reasonable people this form of "logic" cuts no ice whatsoever.

Not what I said. Also note, if you will, that I said it was inexcusable. It was also a very tiny number of incidents in a equally small period of time in which the PIRA resorted, out of desperation, to such sectarian tit-for-tat. It isn't practice, as you suggest.

What British Empire?, last time I looked it was long gone, and exists only in the minds of the "Republican Movement"

Exactly. That's my point. It is gone (with one notable exception) BECAUSE their were those willing to fight and die for freedom. I find it highly offensive that people can sit around slagging people who made such great sacrifices, acting self-righteous because they never had to get off their asses to fight, never had to dirty there hands. All of Ireland might still be under the British yoke if everyone thought like some of the people here. - Did you even read what I said? Or did you just not understand it?

By your logic, such attitudes, could be used to condone the murder of any member of Sinn Fein, because they were former members of the PIRA.

Used by whom? I assume you mean by Loyalists? Not right, since (most?) PSF members are mere politicians who firmly support the Stormont negotiations. Also, you say "any member". Do you think they were all in the IRA? ...Volunteer Marylou McDonald? LOL! - I assume you are referring to the ex-UDR example whatshisface provided. Just because they retired from the UDR doesn't mean they are no longer engaged in loyalist paramilitaries. The UDR has had a long history of its members also being in one Loyalist paramilitary or another.

oscarBravo

Fitzgerald wrote:

Your opinion. Not a fact. (And probably an ill-informed opinion to boot.)

Au contraire - unless you have evidence to the contrary, the INLA has never been much more than a ragtag collection of criminally-minded psychopaths who used Irish Republicanism as a flag of convenience. I refer you to chapter 3 (I think) of Paul Williams' book Crimelords.

Fitzgerald wrote:

It is gone (with one notable exception) BECAUSE their were those willing to fight and die for freedom.

What's the notable exception - Northern Ireland? I think you'll find that it's part of the United Kingdom, rather than the British Empire.

Fitzgerald wrote:

I find it highly offensive that people can sit around slagging people who made such great sacrifices, acting self-righteous because they never had to get off their asses to fight, never had to dirty there hands.

You ought to be a little more careful where you address remarks like that. Someone near and dear to me had to take up arms to defend us from self-styled freedom fighters. Other posters here have been in the Defence Forces. It's not just terrorists who have to get their hands dirty.

Fitzgerald

oscarBravo wrote:

Au contraire - unless you have evidence to the contrary, the INLA has never been much more than a ragtag collection of criminally-minded psychopaths who used Irish Republicanism as a flag of convenience. I refer you to chapter 3 (I think) of Paul Williams' book Crimelords.

I guess that book is the ultimate authority, with no agenda whatsoever. You read it in a book and presume it to be fact? How pathetically naive. Tell a lurid tale of scandal and watch it sell. The tabloid mentality at work. - Of course, there could also be a more sinister motive at work than simple greed.

What's the notable exception - Northern Ireland? I think you'll find that it's part of the United Kingdom, rather than the British Empire.

The U.K. - the last remnant of the Empire.

You ought to be a little more careful where you address remarks like that. Someone near and dear to me had to take up arms to defend us from self-styled freedom fighters. Other posters here have been in the Defence Forces. It's not just terrorists who have to get their hands dirty.

Sure, but your "defence forces" are not getting their hands dirty in defence of a 32 County Republic, nor in defence of communities oppressed by a foreign imperialist power. Your Free State "defence forces" are dirtying their hands to help maintain an illegal, oppressive statelet in the north.

toiletduck

Fitzgerald wrote:

Sure, but your "defence forces" are not getting their hands dirty in defence of a 32 County Republic, nor in defence of communities oppressed by a foreign imperialist power.

Exactly what "oppressed" community are you reffering to? The Nationalists in the North, where they have exactly the same rights as Unionists? How are they "oppressed?"

jbkenn

Fitzgerald wrote:

Your opinion. Not a fact. (And probably an ill-informed opinion to boot.)

Ill informed?

The INLA was considered the most ruthless republican paramilitary organisation and it is said that Provisional IRA members used to talk of the INLA as wild men. In December 1982 the INLA was responsible for one of the most gruesome bombings of the troubles. Seventeen people died, 11 of them were soldiers, when an INLA bomb exploded at the Droppin' Well public house at Ballykelly. It emerged later at the trial that INLA members from Derry had carried out several reconnaissance missions "to see if there were enough soldiers to justify the possibility of civilian killings."

In 1994, former INLA head Dominic "Mad Dog" McGlinchey was gunned down in front of his 16-year-old boy because colleagues felt that McGlinchey wasn't radical enough. Mad Dog had admitted to killing 30 men before his own murder

Grand bunch of lads

Not what I said. Also note, if you will, that I said it was inexcusable. It was also a very tiny number of incidents in a equally small period of time in which the PIRA resorted, out of desperation, to such sectarian tit-for-tat. It isn't practice, as you suggest.

Out of desperation????

Exactly. That's my point. It is gone (with one notable exception) BECAUSE their were those willing to fight and die for freedom. I find it highly offensive that people can sit around slagging people who made such great sacrifices, acting self-righteous because they never had to get off their asses to fight, never had to dirty there hands. All of Ireland might still be under the British yoke if everyone thought like some of the people here. - Did you even read what I said? Or did you just not understand it?

More "Republican Movement" claptrap, the British Empire is gone, with no notable exceptions.

Used by whom? I assume you mean by Loyalists? Not right, since (most?) PSF members are mere politicians who firmly support the Stormont negotiations. Also, you say "any member". Do you think they were all in the IRA? ...Volunteer Marylou McDonald? LOL! - I assume you are referring to the ex-UDR example whatshisface provided. Just because they retired from the UDR doesn't mean they are no longer engaged in loyalist paramilitaries. The UDR has had a long history of its members also being in one Loyalist paramilitary or another.

I can understand why Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness etc. being involved, born in NI and witnessing the discrimination against catholics , Mary Lou, cant figure her out, but hey, did'nt she do well.
The UDR no longer exists, it was amalgated with the Royal Irish Rangers in 1992 to form the Royal Irish Regiment.

jbkenn

oscarBravo

Fitzgerald wrote:

I guess that book is the ultimate authority, with no agenda whatsoever. You read it in a book and presume it to be fact? How pathetically naive. Tell a lurid tale of scandal and watch it sell. The tabloid mentality at work. - Of course, there could also be a more sinister motive at work than simple greed.

Maybe. But you know what? I posted a source. All you do is snipe at posts with no sources whatsoever. Come back to me with a source that shows what a fine bunch of upstanding patriots the INLA are, and we'll discuss it. In the meantime, I'll put a little more credence in Paul Williams than in some anonymous terrorist fanboy on the Internet.

Fitzgerald wrote:

Sure, but your "defence forces" are not getting their hands dirty in defence of a 32 County Republic, nor in defence of communities oppressed by a foreign imperialist power. Your Free State "defence forces" are dirtying their hands to help maintain an illegal, oppressive statelet in the north.

There's no reason to put quotes around "defence forces" - they are the legitimately constituted armed forces of this republic. Not Free State, republic.

Seriously, can't you see how pathetic your "revolutionary" rhetoric looks? Free State? Illegal, oppressive statelet? Foreign imperialist power? It feels like I'm watching re-runs of Citizen Smith, but without the irony.

Fitzgerald

toiletduck wrote:

Exactly what "oppressed" community are you reffering to? The Nationalists in the North, where they have exactly the same rights as Unionists? How are they "oppressed?"

In theory, yes. The fact is that a Catholic or Nationalist is still twice as likely to be unemployed as a Protestant or Unionist. The fact is that the PSNI (aka RUC) still harrass, intimidate, discriminate against, and abuse the Catholic/Nationalist population. The fact is that the "Security Forces" and Loyalist paramilitaries have a long history of collusion, and there is no reason for me to believe that, on some level, it is still going on. They are also oppressed by the very existence of partition, by being occupied by the British, and by a Unionist veto.

Fitzgerald

jbkenn wrote:

Ill informed?

So you can cut and paste (and from uncited sources to boot!). I guess you proved me wrong.
Don't know how you can pin Dominic McGlinchey on the INLA since no onw claimed responsibility and no one was ever charged. Dominic was the target of a UVF assassination attempt just a year before. I think that might give one pause. So, too, might the fact that he is a celebrated figure in the RSM.

The UDR no longer exists, it was amalgated with the Royal Irish Rangers in 1992 to form the Royal Irish Regiment.

jbkenn

When did I say it still existed? - Didn't.

Fitzgerald

oscarBravo wrote:

Maybe. But you know what? I posted a source. All you do is snipe at posts with no sources whatsoever.

Every link I've ever posted here has been deleted by the anti-Republican moderators, but I'll try naming a few:
http://www.irsm.org/
http://www.irsm.org/irsp/starryplough/
http://www.teachnafailte.org/
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/
http://lark.phoblacht.net/
http://larkspirit.com/general/
http://irelandsown.net/
http://www.nuzhound.com/index.php
http://rsmforum.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=general
http://admin2.7.forumer.com/
http://aontacht.net/phpBB2/index.php
http://b4.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?user=IPSC

- just to list the first dozen links I happened to pull up.

I talk/listen to people in the RM including to those in the RSM, and have for some time now on pretty much a daily basis. If you want to list 10 - no, I'll make it easy, 7 - aw, hell, I'll be merciful - list 5 books on the INLA, and I'll tell you which I've read. I have read a number of books which INCLUDE information on the INLA, but there are VERY few which actually have the INLA as their primary focus. One I'd recommend would be "Ten Men Dead" by David Beresford. Tim Pat Coogan also discusses them a bit in "The Troubles", and David McKittrick and David McVea discuss them a bit in "Making Sense of The Troubles", and they are far from sympathetic to Republicans.
You might wish to stick to your tabloid source, but I wouldn't waste me time on it.

http://lark.phoblacht.net/allwronglor.html

As for continuing our conversation, I really don't care if you have any interest. I really don't think I do either. I don't think I want to waste my time with a West Brit such as yourself and cersorship-happy moderators.

sceptre

None of them are sources to support a specific point. OK they may (or may not) be potential sources but that's not of any use whatever when you're supporting a specific point. It's almost the same thing as saying "my source is the internet, it's probably there somewhere". Which obviously isn't worth a flying suck when you're trying to support any argument whatever.

Broadly speaking, no-one's going to delete any source you produce to support a line of argument in an actual discussion. Obviously anyone who comes on to the site and provides as their first (and at the time only) post or posts a series of links without ever actually contributing to the community by participating in any discussion is going to find short thrift when it comes to deciding what's worth keeping and what appears to constitute spam.

In other words, what I'm advising you (and this one's friendly) is that if you've got a specific source to back up a specific point, provide it specifically. Otherwise it ain't worth much.

pork99

Fitzgerald wrote:

Sure, but your "defence forces" are not getting their hands dirty in defence of a 32 County Republic, nor in defence of communities oppressed by a foreign imperialist power. Your Free State "defence forces" are dirtying their hands to help maintain an illegal, oppressive statelet in the north.

I hope these guys are keeping a close eye on you

jbkenn

Fitzgerald wrote:

So you can cut and paste (and from uncited sources to boot!). I guess you proved me wrong.
Don't know how you can pin Dominic McGlinchey on the INLA since no onw claimed responsibility and no one was ever charged. Dominic was the target of a UVF assassination attempt just a year before. I think that might give one pause. So, too, might the fact that he is a celebrated figure in the RSM.

RSM?? what that? "celebrated figure" , speaks volumes of them, whoever they are

When did I say it still existed? - Didn't.

The UDR has had a long history of its members also being in one Loyalist paramilitary or another.

The UDR was in existence for 20 years

jbkenn

Cork

Never again should any party entering democratic talks have links to an organisation with lllegal arms.

I think that weapons have to be decommissoned and criminality stopped before SF can enter talks with both soveriegn governments.

People in SF do not believe that murdering a woman is a crime.

This state sees murder as a crime. The whole civilised world does like wise. But not SF.

. Steps have to be taken to decommisson and end criminality.

Making demands on the Taoiseach of this country be be assested - tells much about the Adams.

It is about time took steps to end IRA criminality and get them to decommission.

And Yes, punishment beatings are criminal.

Cork

Fitzgerald wrote:

In theory, yes. The fact is that a Catholic or Nationalist is still twice as likely to be unemployed as a Protestant or Unionist. The fact is that the PSNI (aka RUC) still harrass, .

Could you source these statistics. I think that may be pretty dated.

Just a point of information : The PSNI are not aka RUC. The PSNI are accepted by both the Catolic Church and SDLP.

true

Fitzgerald wrote:

Yes... there have been quite a number of Protestant Republicans, especially in the INLA.

I doubt this very much. The INLA comprised of a relatively small number of thugs, and were responsible for some of the worst atrocities of the troubles.
Eg in the eighties, in South Armagh, they went to an evening service at a small Protestant church and started machine gunning the worshippers ( Pentecontalists or something I think, some harmless crowd anyway ) , killing three or four I think, just because they were Protestants. I know some Protestants were involved three or four generations ago in "the struggle" , but I doubt there was any involved in the cutting edge of the republican terrorist campaign in the last 35 years.



A far higher number was the number of Catholics in the RUC / UDR / RIR , and I salute these brave people.


Fitzgerald, you seem to base the root of your information of republican internet sites and (mostly) republican books. I am afraid you are a bit brainwashed.
For example, you say " The fact is that a Catholic or Nationalist is still twice as likely to be unemployed as a Protestant or Unionist. The fact is that the PSNI (aka RUC) still harrass, intimidate, discriminate against, and abuse the Catholic/Nationalist population. "
This is rubbish. Catholic unemployment once was higher than Protestant unemployment, but this is not the case now. In fact, some Protestants are now the one that are feelings descriminated against in some areas. As for your claim about the PSNI, it is pathetic.

true

Fitzgerald wrote:

, . Just because they retired from the UDR doesn't mean they are no longer engaged in loyalist paramilitaries. The UDR has had a long history of its members also being in one Loyalist paramilitary or another.

As a percentage , very very few UDR people were involved in "loyalist paramilitaries", despite the propoganda you may have been taught , Fitzgerald.
What was the total membership of the UDR, and what was the total membership of Protestant paramilitaries , Fitzgerald. Many UDR men were from places which had no loyalist paramilitaries, like Co. Fermanagh. Yet your reasoning justifies the IRA or INLA going out and putting a bomb under their car some dark night, or ambushing him / her some time they are off duty, with a burst from a few Klashnikovs in the back. They were / are someones son, brother or father, and everyone has the right to life. Some Gardai have been accused of IRA collusion during the troubles, but that does not justify you killing all other members of the Gardai.

mycroft

true wrote:

As for your claim about the PSNI, it is pathetic.

And thats correct thanks to the ombudsman the PSNI are getting a reputation as a fair and even handed body who are answerable to a strict, aggressive, policing body are their to watch over the PSNI