Flashing to overtake; acceptable?

Automan

Hey cormie do you have a full license? You do know that it is illegal for provisional drivers to drive on the M50.

djeclips

Usually If your paying attention you'll notice cars coming up behind you and how fast they do so.If I'm driving along and someone is closing in on me i'll move over to the hard shoulder with no hesitation as long as I can see it's clear.If he/she wants to go faster who am I to stop them.Siting on the white line will only piss them off and make them take a chance at passing you.

The main thing that wrecks my head is when your in a huge que of traffic(anyone driving to dublin from kinnegad onwords will know) and that prat is sitting on your bumper,not flashing or anything,just way too close.As mentioned before about standing on the brakes,or hopping up the handbrake,Not a fan of that.Just going to end up with your pride and joy geting wrecked some day.

BrianD

Bond-007 wrote:

Do you have the SI for that BrianD? when was the 80km/h limit brought in?

It was advertised in the paper a few weeks ago. New limits for car & trailer, double decker buses and HGV's.

http://www.gometric.ie/speedlimits.html

The "rule" about HGV's using the overtaking lane was published an official notice advertisement a few weeks ago as well. Can't find any online reference to that item.

mackerski

BrianD wrote:

Speaking of trucks, [...] and they are restricted to the LH lane of dual carriageways.

Are you sure about this part? There is, and has been for a while, a law barring trucks from the innermost lane of a dual-carriageway, but it only appies where three or more lanes are available.

BrianD wrote:

If I'm forced to undertake I'll give them a blast of the horn!

Who's forcing you? I'm surprised that a man with a zero-tolerance for speeding should be prepared to ignore other road-traffic acts just because it suits him. Do you consider that some things are more illegal than others?

Dermot

sceptre

Renegade_Archer wrote:

Opinions?

Assuming you weren't in the right-hand lane on a dual carriageway, the guy was an ignorant shyster. Some day with any luck he'll have an accident at a level crossing.

I don't tend to pull into the hard shoulder. There's too much stuff there that can do bad things to your car (a few years ago my GF managed to blow two tyres when being nice to someone and pulling in). Equally I don't complain when someone's doing thirty on a single carriageway road with a sixty limit (OK, I whinge a little but it's their right to do so until there's a law that says they can't) but when an overtaking opportunity arises I'll take it. I don't have a problem with being overtaken and I don't have a problem with overtaking. Then again I don't tend to have that inferiority complex that so many Irish motorists have and I'm always just a little disappointed when I encounter a motorist who's compensating for having a small penis or being powerless in their personal life or whatever reason people have for that "he's not passing me" thing that Silvera mentioned.

I also work on the assumption that 99% of people that drive like tossers don't have a woman in the back of the car with a heavily dilated cervix. I reckon most of them don't.

However sometimes it's better to leave a genuine road menace pass. That way when he finally takes himself out on a bad turn he won't be taking you along for the roll.

AMurphy

cormie wrote:

I was doing 60.00mph on the 60 zone on the M50 and there was a truck on my left doing 59.99, It took me ages to overtake him but I wasn't prepared to break the speed limit and overtake him quicker for guy flashing from behind.

I also think by not letting them overtake you if you are in the right, you are making the roads generally safer.

I woudl say, on a 2 lane highway/road, pass smartly. Don't make a life long task out of it. You can settle back in at 60.001 ahead of the truck/whatever.

Wrong, your are not the police force, so if someone else wants to streak by at the speed of light, it's not for your to enforce the law and you are not making the road safer, quiet the contrary.
Just pass smartly, pull back in lane and if there are any cops about, it's fairly obvious which target will get hit first..... so much the better for you. You always need some faster idiot to draw attention.

AMurphy

cormie wrote:

I was already in the lane overtaking cars that were going 50 or so. I knew I was gaining on the truck so I had every right to stay in the overtaking lane within the speed limit and complete the overtake. I'm not going to break the limit to complete the overtake just because somebody is flashing me to do so.

If there was a space (larger then your car) between the 50mph bunch and the 60mph truck, just time it so you can slot in behind the truck let the streaker past and pull out again when he is past.
Hogging the lane, just because you are already in the lane is not good.
OTOH, depending on spacing, relative speeds, closing rate, etc. I may not have flashed, just went about you on the "slow" lane.

AMurphy

cormie wrote:

Sorry if I sound ignorant, but say for example, I am doing to max limit, and somebody flashes me once to pull into the hard shoulder .....?

I have never been flashed to pull onto the shoulder, (of a 1 lane ea way), road. However, if I get eh impression that someone is itching to get past, even without flashing, I'll pull over (assuming the shoulder is not a minefield of potholes), and let them past. I'd rather have them on someone elses tail, not mine.
I remember one occasion in and about Kildare. stream of traffic northbound.
Idiot behind itching to get past, so I pull onto the shoulder, did not change speed, just pulled over. Next thing, the cars ahead braked... I did'nt. Before I knew it I had passed 4~5 cars on the shoulder. Pulled back into the traffic and carried on as before..... Got rid of the itcher at least.

AMurphy

Silvera wrote:

Too many Irish motorist's view driving as a competition.
God forbid if somebody tries to overtake them, it's the "He's not getting past me - so he's not!" or "I've GOT to get in front at all costs! mentality that seems to prevail with many drivers.

And it's that very attitude that causes so many accidents !!!

.......

This I find true, even at very slow speeds.
for example getting onto the highway in rush-hour (stalled) traffic. All card progresing about 5mph and you are trying to merge. Rather than make a few feet of room for you, they will hump the car in front to prevent you, as though the bumper of the car in front where their personal property. Don't ask me for an explaination, but it is universal, particularly in Asia. (except Japan and HK).
In such traffic, target a very expensive car, they yield to scrap.
But it is a pity people cannot get into the mode of every alternate vehicle....share the pain or gain. Amazing what sorts of a huff people can get into over a meer 10 ft of road.

Blitzkrieger

mackerski wrote:

If so, then you may move onto it to allow a driver by, but you are not obliged to do so

It's actually illegal to do so. You can't legally use the hard shoulder as a driving lane. It's something you'd never, ever be pulled for though and as long as it's clear I see no reason not to use it.

cormie wrote:

I was doing 60.00mph on the 60 zone on the M50 and there was a truck on my left doing 59.99, It took me ages to overtake him but I wasn't prepared to break the speed limit and overtake him quicker for guy flashing from behind.

I also think by not letting them overtake you if you are in the right, you are making the roads generally safer.

I hate people on a crusade to make the roads safer. They often don't know the rules of the road themselves and end up making things worse. It's common courtesy to move over to let someone pass if it's safe to do so. It's also not illegal to break the speed limit during overtaking. It would have been much safer to bring it up to 70 to pass that truck.

dudara wrote:

Correct me here if I'm wrong but aren't you obliged to make room for a faster moving vehicle as long as it is safe for you to do so.

No. You're entitled to drive as normal regardless of what's behind you. Some courtesy and consideration for other road users is nice, but there's no legal requirement for you to assist people to overtake you. Of course there are exceptions.....

sceptre wrote:

Equally I don't complain when someone's doing thirty on a single carriageway road with a sixty limit (OK, I whinge a little but it's their right to do so until there's a law that says they can't).

........if you're driving too slowly that's also considered dangerous driving. I've only ever heard of one prosecution though.


I would say flashing lights to overtake is very rude and I wouldn't do it myself unless it was an emergency. The last time it happened to me it was a Garda car trying to get past. The IAM recommend that you flash your lights as you overtake to alert the driver you're passing and any oncoming traffic. I'm reluctant to do so myself because I think the gesture would be misinterpeted. I've said before people already flash their lights far too often for far too many reasons (anything from "thank you for letting me cross" to "get the **** out of my way" or "slow down ya mad bollix") so unless I really think the driver is not paying attention I wouldn't take the chance of causing road rage by being misunderstood.

mackerski

Blitzkrieger wrote:

It's actually illegal to do so. You can't legally use the hard shoulder as a driving lane. It's something you'd never, ever be pulled for though and as long as it's clear I see no reason not to use it.

You are mistaken, except about the bit about using the shoulder as a driving lane. Read your copy of the Rules of the Road and you'll see that it specifically mentions the option of making overtaking room (and that only) by pulling into the hard shoulder. Note that, unlike in other countries, our hard shoulders on non-motorway roads are marked out with dashed lines, not solid.

Of course, it goes without saying that you don't do this on a motorway...

Dermot

Darwin

It's also not illegal to break the speed limit during overtaking

As far as I'm aware, this is not correct, but I doubt anyone has ever been convicted for this alone.
With regard to driving in the hard shoulder...if you're driving at the speed limit and pull in to allow another car by, I would say your insurance company would take a dim view of things if you were to hit someone or something while doing this.

mackerski

Darwin wrote:

if you're driving at the speed limit and pull in to allow another car by, I would say your insurance company would take a dim view of things if you were to hit someone or something while doing this.

I would expect my insurance company to take a dim view of me hitting things no matter where I was driving. Don't do that...

Dermot

BrianD3

AFAIK there's nothing in legislation or rules of the road saying that it's legal to break the speed limit while overtaking. If that were the case, then there would be a higher speed limit in the overtaking lane of a motorway, because we all know that that lane is only ever used for overtaking....On a single carriageway road I often feel it necessary/desirable/safe to break the speed limit while overtaking, that doesn't make it legal though and a cop would be 100% in the right to give me a ticket if he caught me.

As for flashing lights and impatient overtaking - this annoys me less than indecisive dawdling and wasting perfectly good overtaking opportunities. Let's say you're travelling on a national primary road. There's a truck going at 45-50 mph who decides not to pull into HS (as is his right) to let following cars past. Very quickly a big line of cars will build up behind due to the first few cars being too indecisive and afriad of their sh1te to overtake. And at the same time they drive up each other's arses, making it impossible for anyone behind them in the queue to move forward without taking a long line of cars + truck in one overtaking maneouvre :mad: Happened to me this morning, I was the 9th car in the queue. Managed to get by 3 of them but after that there wasn't a hope. The 3 that I overtook probably thought I was some "flash impatient bollix in a big car" :rolleyes: As already stated, many Irish drivers are begrudgers who have a phobia about anyone making better progrees than them.

And one funny thing I noticed - the line of muppets that were dawdling along at 45 mph on an N road drove through 40 and 30 mph zones at the exact same speed - it was very noticeable how they pulled right away from me when going through villages etc.

BrianD3

edmund_f

just scanning through this post..


agree or disagree

flashing lights just alerts driver to your presence

you should, where safe, allow faster drivers past

in a queue of traffic you should allow a safe space in front of you for faster cars to pull in to

you should not pull into the overtaking lane on a motorway unless you can complete your ovetaking manouvre without holding up faster traffic.

the best place for faster traffic is;
(a) sitting on your bumber
(b) in front ot you

which is more important
(a) driving legally
(b) driving safely

cormie

Blitzkrieger wrote:

It's also not illegal to break the speed limit during overtaking. It would have been much safer to bring it up to 70 to pass that truck.

Safer yes, as we have discussed, but if a camera was on the road, I would have been done for breaking the limit, fixed cameras can't tell if you're overtaking or not.

In Glenegeary, there is a stretch of road that is 50kmph, I was travelling at 49/50 and some guy passed me. The road is about 600m long, with 6 cameras on it. Are you saying he wouldn't have been nabbed passing me?

flanzer

Was on the Naas Rd, one evening last month. It was 7 o'clock so obviously dark. I was in the fast lane and caught up on a Punto doin about 40 mph :mad: I saw a motorbike hurtling up behind me and being a considerate road user that I am I pulled over a let him by, then realised it was a cop bike. He then got caught behind the Punto and proceeded to flash the bast*rd off the road. The Punto didn't budge though. Within 30 seconds the blue flashers came on, and 'Driving Miss Daisy' was waved into the hard shoulder and presumably summonsed!! I broke my b*ll*xs laffin!
I think there should be more of this on the roads for deffo. But it highlights the serious lack of education of drivers currently using our roads

Alun

cormie wrote:

In Glenegeary, there is a stretch of road that is 50kmph, I was travelling at 49/50 and some guy passed me. The road is about 600m long, with 6 cameras on it. Are you saying he wouldn't have been nabbed passing me?

6 cameras in 600m ????!!!! One every hundred metres? 6 speed camera warning signs maybe, but not 6 cameras. Oh, and it's km/h not kmph

BrianD

Mackerski wrote:

Who's forcing you? I'm surprised that a man with a zero-tolerance for speeding should be prepared to ignore other road-traffic acts just because it suits him. Do you consider that some things are more illegal than others?

Try and visualise what is happening and you will see what actually happening. I overtake cars that are in the left lane by moving right and then I encounter a slow moving vehicle that stays in the overtaking lane. Two options - stay behind slow moving vehicle in o/take lane forming a line or move back to left lane. I move left and continue at speed limit effectively undertaking the car in the o/take lane. I generally give them a beep. Now depending on what traffic is ahead I may remain in the left lane or o/take as required.

No road traffic acts breached but the guy in the o/take lane is creating potentially dangerous situations for other road users.

Boggle

AFAIK there's nothing in legislation or rules of the road saying that it's legal to break the speed limit while overtaking.

The rules of the road book states specifically that the speed limit is 60mph unless uvertaking. So yes there is...

And one funny thing I noticed - the line of muppets that were dawdling along at 45 mph on an N road drove through 40 and 30 mph zones at the exact same speed - it was very noticeable how they pulled right away from me when going through villages etc.

Another phenomenon of Irish roads!

I would expect my insurance company to take a dim view of me hitting things no matter where I was driving.

As far as I know, if you hit something in the hard shoulder then you are automatically wrong. No ifs or buts. (It was on the radio a year or so ago)

I'm quite surprised by the general lack of willingness to allow others be on their way - even among the so called informed of the motors forum. If someone flashes you then it probably means they caughtup with you and you are now impeding their progress. Get over it and let them pass. Simple. If it does turn out to be a lunatic then rest assured that, sooner or later, he/she'll end up in a ditch....

BrianD

Boggle - the NRA has research that indicates that many Irish drivers will drive at the same speed irrespective of road type or road conditions. I've noticed that with a relative who will drive at 40mph down a country lane way and continue at the same speed when she gets onto the nearby N3!

mackerski

BrianD wrote:

I overtake cars that are in the left lane by moving right and then I encounter a slow moving vehicle that stays in the overtaking lane. Two options - stay behind slow moving vehicle in o/take lane forming a line or move back to left lane. I move left and continue at speed limit effectively undertaking the car in the o/take lane.

This is an offence. I was led to believe that you disapproved of road-traffic offences. And in particular of those who break them for selfish reasons. The best reason not to do this is that, because our road convention is "keep left, pass right", drivers in the right lane will not expect you to be there if they choose to change lane. Also, you stand a much better chance of being in a blind spot. Recite with me the motto: "There's more than one road-traffic offence".

BrianD wrote:

No road traffic acts breached but the guy in the o/take lane is creating potentially dangerous situations for other road users.

You breach the act by left-overtaking. The lane-hog breaches it by failure to keep left. Both of you cause a hazard.

The amusing thing is, the road would have been safer if you'd both been slightly exceeding the speed limit.

Dermot

BrianD3

Boggle wrote:

The rules of the road book states specifically that the speed limit is 60mph unless uvertaking.

Interesting - I wasn't aware of that and am surprised. Is there anyone here who has a copy of The Rules in front of them and can give an exact quote from the book on what it says about this.

PS mackerski is correct about BrianD's undertaking. If BrianD finds himself in the situation he described, to stay 100% legal he should adjust his speed so he doesn't undertake the guy hogging the overtaking lane. Yes the other guy is in the wrong and yes it is highly unlikley that BrianD woudl be pulled up for undertaking in these circumstances, however the law is the law.

BrianD3

Alun

For me, one of the problems with the '"don't undertake" rule is this ...

What exactly do you do in practice when on an otherwise empty dual carriageway or motorway you come across some numpty doing 60 or 70 km/h in the overtaking lane where a 100 or 120 km/h limit applies?

As I see it if you follow the letter of the law your only option is to remain in the driving lane doing exactly the same speed as they are, remaining far enough back to both not be in their blind spot and give them enough space to allow him/her to pull back in, if they ever wake up and decide to do so, thus effectively creating a moving roadblock and impeding everybody else's progress.

mackerski

Alun wrote:

For me, one of the problems with the '"don't undertake" rule is this ...

I know. Shall we crack out all the things that are daft about how our speed limits work? But it's the rule.

Dermot

John R

cormie wrote:

In Glenegeary, there is a stretch of road that is 50kmph, I was travelling at 49/50 and some guy passed me. The road is about 600m long, with 6 cameras on it. Are you saying he wouldn't have been nabbed passing me?

Where do you get this sh!te from? I have lived in that area for over 20 years and I cannot remember ever seing ONE speed camera, never mind six at one time.

Boggle

Boggle - the NRA has research that indicates that many Irish drivers will drive at the same speed irrespective of road type or road conditions.

I'm not sure what this has to do with allowing other traffic to move on.... Lets face it, if people really can't account for conditions then they wont survive.

If BrianD finds himself in the situation he described, to stay 100% legal he should adjust his speed so he doesn't undertake the guy hogging the overtaking lane.

Not a chance in hell would I do this. If some one was in the outside lane doing this I would generally flash him and if I got no response I would generally put the boot down and go the left. I can imagine nothing more dangerous than 2 cars driving side by side doing 50 on a motorway...

Boggle

Originally Posted by cormie

In Glenegeary, there is a stretch of road that is 50kmph, I was travelling at 49/50 and some guy passed me. The road is about 600m long, with 6 cameras on it. Are you saying he wouldn't have been nabbed passing me?

No he wouldn't. He may be flashed but as he's overtaking they wont prosecute. (Dont imagine this counts for dual carriageways in case anyone's thinkin about racing home in the outside lane tonight)

Blitzkrieger

mackerski wrote:

Read your copy of the Rules of the Road and you'll see that it specifically mentions the option of making overtaking room (and that only) by pulling into the hard shoulder.

Well my copy of the Rules of the Road states that you cannot use the hard shoulder for driving at all. My copy is getting on a bit now though. Fair play if they changed it.

As to the speed limit when overtaking - it's a bit of a grey area. You're certainly allowed to exceed the limit when overtaking but the filth would probably be a bit upset if you were bringing it up over a ton every time you come accross a convoy. Exactly how this law applies on a dual carrigeway is dodgy too. In situations like cormie overtaking that lorry I would definitly say it's ok but on a busy dual carrigeway where you're constantly overtaking I don't know what the law would be.

FX Meister

Sometimes on a single lane road I will give a quick flash to alert the driver ahead that I am about to overtake them. But I don't think it's right to flash someone on a single lane road just cause you want to get them out of the way to overtake. People often don't pay enough attention when there is a car behind them and fail to notice when they try to pass out. I had a close call on the motorway where I was doing the top speed in the left lane then indicated to move into the right lane. This was at 10pm, dark and just entered a stretch with no streetlights. There was a brand new audi in my blind spot with no lights on and I nearly hit him. I can't understand why he had no lights on but it was a close one.